RE: Spotted: Porsche 928 GTS
Discussion
I think the 928's a car whose time has come.
It was long lived, but not amazingly successful in its time.
It always looked a big, beached whale of a car in era, but as cars have bloated it now looks surprisingly svelte and elegant next to a Panamera, for example.
I'm sure there's a lot to go wrong, all of it expensive, but a nice early 928 would be a classy car to drive these days (not so sure on the later ones, objectively better or not, they're in that 'loadsamoney' period still...).
M
It was long lived, but not amazingly successful in its time.
It always looked a big, beached whale of a car in era, but as cars have bloated it now looks surprisingly svelte and elegant next to a Panamera, for example.
I'm sure there's a lot to go wrong, all of it expensive, but a nice early 928 would be a classy car to drive these days (not so sure on the later ones, objectively better or not, they're in that 'loadsamoney' period still...).
M
had a 928 S4 auto from 91 over 8 years ago, great V8 great handling far better than a 911 as you could plant the brakes or accelerator in a corner without fear.
Car is far too heavy to enjoy on small roads and far too big. Wasnt too confidence inspiring at 240kmph on the German autoban when the air got underneath it.
In the end is was just too expensive to run, requiring a belt change every 5 years. 16 liters of special coolant (aluminum bloc) 8 liters of oil I think it was, which it had a tendency to drink at high rpms due to the 32valves.
And the best 92 liter fuel tank ! Although at 160kmph the V8 was runing at just 2krpm so not to bad as a motorway cruiser, which in all fairness is all it was made for. This was a car developed for the US.
A friend of mine ran a 500E at the same time and the performance was identical 5.0L V8 with same gearbox (Auto) but the Merc was far cheaper to run and service. It also had 4 real seats, the 2 in the rear of the 928 are for small children as you will never get an adult behind the driver (leg room)
well known weak points = A/C and engine ECU the later usually fries at 100k and is not longer sold so you can only get yours rebuilt from the USA (at the time at least) for 2k
Car is far too heavy to enjoy on small roads and far too big. Wasnt too confidence inspiring at 240kmph on the German autoban when the air got underneath it.
In the end is was just too expensive to run, requiring a belt change every 5 years. 16 liters of special coolant (aluminum bloc) 8 liters of oil I think it was, which it had a tendency to drink at high rpms due to the 32valves.
And the best 92 liter fuel tank ! Although at 160kmph the V8 was runing at just 2krpm so not to bad as a motorway cruiser, which in all fairness is all it was made for. This was a car developed for the US.
A friend of mine ran a 500E at the same time and the performance was identical 5.0L V8 with same gearbox (Auto) but the Merc was far cheaper to run and service. It also had 4 real seats, the 2 in the rear of the 928 are for small children as you will never get an adult behind the driver (leg room)
well known weak points = A/C and engine ECU the later usually fries at 100k and is not longer sold so you can only get yours rebuilt from the USA (at the time at least) for 2k
Edited by vinnybear on Tuesday 6th November 13:42
bmthnick1981 said:
From what i've read the manual is pretty awful in these, auto is supposed to be the better choice. I've not driven a 928 so this isn't an informed view, am sure someone more knowledgeable than me will be along shortly.
I ran an S with a manual box for a while, took it all over Europe and down to Le Mans. Far from awful once you got used to the dog leg 1st. Can't imagine that the auto's bad either really. There's plenty of power at any point of the rev range and when you planted your foot it just went regardless of gear, speed or revs. Drove like a big sports car rather than a GT - just like a 944 with twice as much power really. Mine was from the cheaper end of the market and had the odd annoying electrical niggle. When it was all working though I can think of no finer machine for blasting down a well sighted A road or gobbling up hundreds of miles of motorway. I'll probably have another one day.
Nice car and manuals are rare but £16K is a ridiculous asking price. These cars are not particularly sought after in the market place and as already mentioned £16k is a 964 price.. i thought perhaps this was due to low mileage... but 93,000 though never a lot for a Porsche is still not exactly low. Except for the manual gearbox I can't see why price is so high..
vinnybear said:
And the best 92 liter fuel tank ! Although at 160kmph the V8 was runing at just 2krpm so not to bad as a motorway cruiser, which in all fairness is all it was made for. This was a car developed for the US.
I wish mine had a 93 litre tank!! Although as you say, not as juicy as you might think for a 5.4 V8 with an ancient 4 speed slush box, on a long run it'll do over 20mpg fairly easily, not far off my Evora S in fact!jackpe said:
Nice car and manuals are rare but £16K is a ridiculous asking price. These cars are not particularly sought after in the market place and as already mentioned £16k is a 964 price.. i thought perhaps this was due to low mileage... but 93,000 though never a lot for a Porsche is still not exactly low. Except for the manual gearbox I can't see why price is so high..
The GTS' seem to be fetching strong money these days. You might want to look at the market a bit closer.Leins said:
J4CKO said:
Was "Risky Business" for me!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpHITx7yRio
Anyone who compares it with a 964 needs to get their head checked... £16k buys you a turd of a 964... On the other hand the same buys you a very well sorted 928GTS... I have driven both models, both were nice cars in good condition. Not in a million years you will see me in a 911 of the same era. Not even a 964 Turbo... And if you are in the market for a 964, you would not be looking at a 928 and vice versa...
I am also sick of people saying they are expensive to run... So, a 964 from the same era is cheap, right? Oh, and I was born yesterday. One of them has complex electrics, the other one has rusty bodywork. One of them has complex cam belt the other an engine which may require a top end rebuild at relatively low miles...
I mean, go on, make my day, try and run any performance car from the 1980s on a shoe-string budget and see how you get on...
P.S. There were 42 UK registered 928 GTS manuals from 1992 to 1995. Quite rare in my book compared to the Auto. Whether that should command a premium or not is another story
P.S.1. My daily driver is a V10 E61 M5, however, if I am asked to chose between my M5 or the similar to the one advertised on here silver GTS 5-spd which sits in my heated garage as the car to have for life, guess what, it will not be the rev monster from Bavaria...
I am also sick of people saying they are expensive to run... So, a 964 from the same era is cheap, right? Oh, and I was born yesterday. One of them has complex electrics, the other one has rusty bodywork. One of them has complex cam belt the other an engine which may require a top end rebuild at relatively low miles...
I mean, go on, make my day, try and run any performance car from the 1980s on a shoe-string budget and see how you get on...
P.S. There were 42 UK registered 928 GTS manuals from 1992 to 1995. Quite rare in my book compared to the Auto. Whether that should command a premium or not is another story
P.S.1. My daily driver is a V10 E61 M5, however, if I am asked to chose between my M5 or the similar to the one advertised on here silver GTS 5-spd which sits in my heated garage as the car to have for life, guess what, it will not be the rev monster from Bavaria...
Edited by Cheburator mk2 on Tuesday 6th November 16:01
Edited by Cheburator mk2 on Tuesday 6th November 16:13
Flatheads’ 928 ramblings - warning long so please don’t quote!
They are the Marmite of the Porsche model range. People either love the styling or turn their collective noses up at them and I can see why. What you are getting is what was destined to be the replacement of the 911 but due to many factors, including the iconic image, the fan base, and the oil crisis, sales were not as good as Porsche expected.
The early 16 valve cars were quite agricultural to drive, I owned two; a 928S as is pictured at the bottom of the article, and an S2. Both of which were autos. The box is 'nice'. About the only word I could think of because you're not expecting to find a ZF paddle control box in a car of this age, but it’s not at all like a modern auto. The torquey motor is well suited to the 4.7litre V8 and a nice burble from an aftermarket exhaust makes up for the absent bucket of cogs. There is something equally magical about the early cars but I was craving for a little more cutting edge and the later models deliver that better to some extent. I've also owned an auto S4 which was better all round for my requirements and now the last of that era (with the 5 litre, 32 valve motor), is my present 928GT. There were reportedly only 2018 GT's manufactured, which included high compression heads, higher lift camshafts, different fuelling and ignition ECU's, and the famous dog-leg gearbox and a few other changes which set them out from the S4 brigade (as was recently pointed out to me by another PH'er - thank you). They feel different with more purpose. The final incarnation, the GTS arrived. It featured a larger displacement and was the last off the line. The GTS made 345hp, and the GT 335.
There are quite a few aftermarket performance parts available. The X-Pipe conversion is popular and adds about 15hp which is enough in a 1600kg car. There are plenty of forced induction kits, and you can go twin-turbo with front or rear mounted turbo's or supercharger. These mods are very popular in the US, where 500 wheel hp is not too hard to achieve. At the moment I like mine as it is!
I'm still contemplating the purchase of a later GTS but I don't like the plastic reflector at the back, and I enjoy the sharper profiled camshafts as it means that not only do you get a broad spread of torque you also get a bit more as the needle enters the red. There are more GTS's than GT's so I want to hang on this one a little longer. Who knows, maybe it's a keeper?
What defines its strength is not ultimately found in town, you have to appreciate why it wears the GT moniker and stretch its legs on a journey before it becomes apparent. Although it is a fairly large displacement V8 it is very eager to rev. Especially the GT. At the ton you are around 3500 rpm. However, the gearing makes for instant progress which is where the car really shines. The gearing is also tall and this is how the car was capable of hitting the 170mph top speed as the engine pulls cleanly and keeps on pulling until it’s on the limiter. By comparison, modern hot hatches can compete with relative ease at 0-60 times of around 5 seconds. Once you're on the open road at above motorway speeds, there's plenty more to come and most things disappear if you keep your foot planted.
Having now owned four 928 cars, I still cannot quite explain what pulls me in. It's old, heavy, and thirsty around town. The interior is dated, and even the AA laughed when they had to lift the passenger floor to release the cover for the fuse board.. it is made of wood!
So what does it feel like in the driver’s seat? The car sits quite low anyway. The roof is chest high. You open the long heavy doors and slide in to sit down low in the leather bucket like seats. The cabin feels like it is wrapped around you. Cars with a higher centre console tend to do this and I like the driving position. Being as this was a £70k Porsche it has electric seats that are commonly found in the other models and a few clicks later sees you positioned so you can see through the screen and you initially wonder where that bonnet goes to. It is a very long bonnet and you are blind and I did nudge a few walls and cars when I first started driving them! Did I mention that the bonnet was long? Some faffing around with various OEM immobilisers, a turn of the key and the engine bursts into life. Even on idle and without the X-pipe the engine is already talking to you in its own inimitable way and it has soulful purpose. This car is not a shopping car with a big engine, it is a car which has been designed from the ground up to do 170mph and everything about it wreaks of over-engineering and solidity. The steering is assisted but still requires a fair bit of effort at low speed and this gives the impression of weightiness about the car. You pull the door closed and it is a hefty solid thump and now you are cocooned in. It's a nice place to be. The original steering wheel is horrid but you forgive the aesthetics as it was designed by Porsche and with many things Germanic, it is the purpose that is of primary concern. No airbag, no launch or traction control either, but you do get ABS and that wonderful electronic differential complete with little green light on the dashboard. As mentioned in the article, it indicates that the diff is busy correcting wheel speeds at the rear, usually induced by prodding the pedal of power when you shouldn't but also when coming off the gas as was intended to prevent lift off over-steer. Either way it works and is a fantastic tool for gauging traction on damp or icy roads.
How many times did I nearly reverse into the car behind? Seriously, were the Porsche gearbox designers on drugs? Clutch down, slide the stick to the left then pull back. That's where first lives and the complete opposite to the majority of every car. Grab a handful of revs, feel the engine start to growl as biting point is reached then with a small snatch of enthusiasm drop what’s left, and with a little bit of lost traction we're away. Planting the peddle in 1st normally lights up the tires in the dry and if you want to practice drifting you're in the right car thanks to its perfect 50/50 weight distribution. Once revved out, simply push the stick forward and the spring lines the stick up by moving it over the right in anticipation for second. Again, if you're ham-fisted you will light up the rears which is a subtle reminder that the car requires some respect. Why? Well it's not an easy car to drive quickly compared to say, a Saburu or Evo - in fact anything remotely modern will seem effortless to get going at higher speeds and keeping it in order. Round the twisties it is fun but the car is seriously wide compared to most and that too takes a little bit of getting used to. It takes some mastering to drive quickly IMO.
On the edge of traction with the help of the green light making an appearance every now and then it is relatively easy to reign back in with the usual reduction in enthusiasm of the right foot. The car feels very neutral and balanced and makes you more confident and tempted to continue and see what happens. Well that's self-explanatory; more revs provides more over steer and less pulls the circle back in tighter. I found this very rewarding when I practiced with the car (as I always do when I get a new one) to learn its limits (and mine!). "Over-steer is always an option" - who was it that said that?
Running costs? Well to be expected really. That large lump of alloy impressive as it is, was never designed to be frugal. It's actually two 944 engines Siamese'd at the crank. The on-board computer usually averages at about 16.7 but that is just how I drive it. It uses a bit of oil but not much – say half a litre every 1000 miles. My car has just turned over the 170,000 miles incidentally and fearing for a blown up engine after noticing a rattle, I had Paul Anderson strip it down to investigate some three years ago. Result? Worn camshaft lobes and a worn tensioner. I asked him to refresh the bottom end while he was in there and was told that there was absolutely no wear to the mains, big or little ends. Not bad for 170k miles! I change the oil every year and only do about 6000 miles. Insurance? £253 FC with agreed value and tax I renew on a six months basis at £115. In the 3 years it has cost me around £7k in servicing, but that has included an engine rebuild and a complete overhaul of the rear suspension. It’s like the Seven Bridge – there’s always something else to do but I guess that’s true of any classic car.
It may not be for everyone and I’m in no doubt the majority of newer cars can beat it in various different areas, but it has had a lot of history with me and I love getting back into it every time. Apologies for the long rambling
They are the Marmite of the Porsche model range. People either love the styling or turn their collective noses up at them and I can see why. What you are getting is what was destined to be the replacement of the 911 but due to many factors, including the iconic image, the fan base, and the oil crisis, sales were not as good as Porsche expected.
The early 16 valve cars were quite agricultural to drive, I owned two; a 928S as is pictured at the bottom of the article, and an S2. Both of which were autos. The box is 'nice'. About the only word I could think of because you're not expecting to find a ZF paddle control box in a car of this age, but it’s not at all like a modern auto. The torquey motor is well suited to the 4.7litre V8 and a nice burble from an aftermarket exhaust makes up for the absent bucket of cogs. There is something equally magical about the early cars but I was craving for a little more cutting edge and the later models deliver that better to some extent. I've also owned an auto S4 which was better all round for my requirements and now the last of that era (with the 5 litre, 32 valve motor), is my present 928GT. There were reportedly only 2018 GT's manufactured, which included high compression heads, higher lift camshafts, different fuelling and ignition ECU's, and the famous dog-leg gearbox and a few other changes which set them out from the S4 brigade (as was recently pointed out to me by another PH'er - thank you). They feel different with more purpose. The final incarnation, the GTS arrived. It featured a larger displacement and was the last off the line. The GTS made 345hp, and the GT 335.
There are quite a few aftermarket performance parts available. The X-Pipe conversion is popular and adds about 15hp which is enough in a 1600kg car. There are plenty of forced induction kits, and you can go twin-turbo with front or rear mounted turbo's or supercharger. These mods are very popular in the US, where 500 wheel hp is not too hard to achieve. At the moment I like mine as it is!
I'm still contemplating the purchase of a later GTS but I don't like the plastic reflector at the back, and I enjoy the sharper profiled camshafts as it means that not only do you get a broad spread of torque you also get a bit more as the needle enters the red. There are more GTS's than GT's so I want to hang on this one a little longer. Who knows, maybe it's a keeper?
What defines its strength is not ultimately found in town, you have to appreciate why it wears the GT moniker and stretch its legs on a journey before it becomes apparent. Although it is a fairly large displacement V8 it is very eager to rev. Especially the GT. At the ton you are around 3500 rpm. However, the gearing makes for instant progress which is where the car really shines. The gearing is also tall and this is how the car was capable of hitting the 170mph top speed as the engine pulls cleanly and keeps on pulling until it’s on the limiter. By comparison, modern hot hatches can compete with relative ease at 0-60 times of around 5 seconds. Once you're on the open road at above motorway speeds, there's plenty more to come and most things disappear if you keep your foot planted.
Having now owned four 928 cars, I still cannot quite explain what pulls me in. It's old, heavy, and thirsty around town. The interior is dated, and even the AA laughed when they had to lift the passenger floor to release the cover for the fuse board.. it is made of wood!
So what does it feel like in the driver’s seat? The car sits quite low anyway. The roof is chest high. You open the long heavy doors and slide in to sit down low in the leather bucket like seats. The cabin feels like it is wrapped around you. Cars with a higher centre console tend to do this and I like the driving position. Being as this was a £70k Porsche it has electric seats that are commonly found in the other models and a few clicks later sees you positioned so you can see through the screen and you initially wonder where that bonnet goes to. It is a very long bonnet and you are blind and I did nudge a few walls and cars when I first started driving them! Did I mention that the bonnet was long? Some faffing around with various OEM immobilisers, a turn of the key and the engine bursts into life. Even on idle and without the X-pipe the engine is already talking to you in its own inimitable way and it has soulful purpose. This car is not a shopping car with a big engine, it is a car which has been designed from the ground up to do 170mph and everything about it wreaks of over-engineering and solidity. The steering is assisted but still requires a fair bit of effort at low speed and this gives the impression of weightiness about the car. You pull the door closed and it is a hefty solid thump and now you are cocooned in. It's a nice place to be. The original steering wheel is horrid but you forgive the aesthetics as it was designed by Porsche and with many things Germanic, it is the purpose that is of primary concern. No airbag, no launch or traction control either, but you do get ABS and that wonderful electronic differential complete with little green light on the dashboard. As mentioned in the article, it indicates that the diff is busy correcting wheel speeds at the rear, usually induced by prodding the pedal of power when you shouldn't but also when coming off the gas as was intended to prevent lift off over-steer. Either way it works and is a fantastic tool for gauging traction on damp or icy roads.
How many times did I nearly reverse into the car behind? Seriously, were the Porsche gearbox designers on drugs? Clutch down, slide the stick to the left then pull back. That's where first lives and the complete opposite to the majority of every car. Grab a handful of revs, feel the engine start to growl as biting point is reached then with a small snatch of enthusiasm drop what’s left, and with a little bit of lost traction we're away. Planting the peddle in 1st normally lights up the tires in the dry and if you want to practice drifting you're in the right car thanks to its perfect 50/50 weight distribution. Once revved out, simply push the stick forward and the spring lines the stick up by moving it over the right in anticipation for second. Again, if you're ham-fisted you will light up the rears which is a subtle reminder that the car requires some respect. Why? Well it's not an easy car to drive quickly compared to say, a Saburu or Evo - in fact anything remotely modern will seem effortless to get going at higher speeds and keeping it in order. Round the twisties it is fun but the car is seriously wide compared to most and that too takes a little bit of getting used to. It takes some mastering to drive quickly IMO.
On the edge of traction with the help of the green light making an appearance every now and then it is relatively easy to reign back in with the usual reduction in enthusiasm of the right foot. The car feels very neutral and balanced and makes you more confident and tempted to continue and see what happens. Well that's self-explanatory; more revs provides more over steer and less pulls the circle back in tighter. I found this very rewarding when I practiced with the car (as I always do when I get a new one) to learn its limits (and mine!). "Over-steer is always an option" - who was it that said that?
Running costs? Well to be expected really. That large lump of alloy impressive as it is, was never designed to be frugal. It's actually two 944 engines Siamese'd at the crank. The on-board computer usually averages at about 16.7 but that is just how I drive it. It uses a bit of oil but not much – say half a litre every 1000 miles. My car has just turned over the 170,000 miles incidentally and fearing for a blown up engine after noticing a rattle, I had Paul Anderson strip it down to investigate some three years ago. Result? Worn camshaft lobes and a worn tensioner. I asked him to refresh the bottom end while he was in there and was told that there was absolutely no wear to the mains, big or little ends. Not bad for 170k miles! I change the oil every year and only do about 6000 miles. Insurance? £253 FC with agreed value and tax I renew on a six months basis at £115. In the 3 years it has cost me around £7k in servicing, but that has included an engine rebuild and a complete overhaul of the rear suspension. It’s like the Seven Bridge – there’s always something else to do but I guess that’s true of any classic car.
It may not be for everyone and I’m in no doubt the majority of newer cars can beat it in various different areas, but it has had a lot of history with me and I love getting back into it every time. Apologies for the long rambling
I've liked the 928 since, or even before, I was bought a model kit of one (Revell I think) for Christmas '78 or '79.
There is a white S4 around this way which always raises a smile when I see it. I was actually a bit gutted when I saw it being trailered to a garage recently. I hope it's nothing serious or terminal.
There is a white S4 around this way which always raises a smile when I see it. I was actually a bit gutted when I saw it being trailered to a garage recently. I hope it's nothing serious or terminal.
Andrew[MG] said:
I have driven a manual (can't remember which year) and I loved it. Still, I'm not sure that £16k is a good investment when you consider the modern metal that you could get for that amount. One for the fanboys I guess.
No one buys one following a comparison with modern metal... You buy it because you want to own a classic Porsche... Hell, no one would be buying 964s if we all followed your logic given that 996s are available for as low as £8k...P.S. What do you suggest for that amount from the modern metal?
M@1975 said:
Looked at a couple of 928s before gettingthe 911 and the god awful auto box did put me off, as mentioned most seem to have 3 speeds working in them rather than 4. No idea what the manwell is like though. There was a very nicely sorted Yellow manual on ebay apparently owned by a racing driver who built it as a track toy, probably should have gone and had a look, it was a LOT cheaper than this!
They stopped using the 3-speed autos after '83, from '84 on they were all 4-speeds. And that transmission has to be the toughest ever made. I've done some quite abusive things to mine (mainly involving fast R-to-D changes to rock myself off a snow bank) and it keeps on going.I can say it's the best-driving car I've ever had. I swear it handles better than my 1st Gen MX-5 (and obviously faster) and it performed better than my E39 540 6-speed.
Sadly, after 12 years of ownership (several years of them being a daily driver), it's electrics just aren't what they once were. Though mine is a European-market "S2" that was imported into the US, so there was quite a bit of compromising by the importer to add the "federally-required" things like lights and stuff--so I put the blame for electricals there, not on the manufacturer. That and needing a back seat I can actually put a modern infant seat into mean it's future is uncertain.
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