RE: Snap! Now pay your road toll
Discussion
I'm sure this would work for people who regularly use the bridge, and are therefore better informed.
The flipside is for the rest of the country who aren't. A couple of years back my wife and I were driving from Scotland to France - satnav took us via the bridge (cue comments) - we're not regulars, and if there hadn't been a barrier we would have just driven straight on, having no knowledge we'd just been fined for not having pre-empted our crossing by paying online....
Maybe they need to work out some method of sending blanket localised text messages to everyone going through the (non) barrier informing them of the need to pay.
The flipside is for the rest of the country who aren't. A couple of years back my wife and I were driving from Scotland to France - satnav took us via the bridge (cue comments) - we're not regulars, and if there hadn't been a barrier we would have just driven straight on, having no knowledge we'd just been fined for not having pre-empted our crossing by paying online....
Maybe they need to work out some method of sending blanket localised text messages to everyone going through the (non) barrier informing them of the need to pay.
TonyHetherington said:
I have mixed feelings.
The impactless charging is fantastic. The queues (both clockwise and anticlockwise) even at non-peak times can be terrible, so this will be a great help.
However, I too remember the "it will be free once it's paid for" - all the way back in 1991. In fact, I rememebr my dad driving over the QEII bridge even before it was open (late at night they wanted to work on the tunnel).
It will never, ever be free as it's not owned by us any more. A French company, no less.
So yes, that the technology will be as such is good - and will work very well and conveniently. But it should be far less cost, and I'm sure I'll get a ticket when someone uses my number plate, just like they did in the congestion charge zone.
The French ownership signs disappeared from the toll booths over a year agoThe impactless charging is fantastic. The queues (both clockwise and anticlockwise) even at non-peak times can be terrible, so this will be a great help.
However, I too remember the "it will be free once it's paid for" - all the way back in 1991. In fact, I rememebr my dad driving over the QEII bridge even before it was open (late at night they wanted to work on the tunnel).
It will never, ever be free as it's not owned by us any more. A French company, no less.
So yes, that the technology will be as such is good - and will work very well and conveniently. But it should be far less cost, and I'm sure I'll get a ticket when someone uses my number plate, just like they did in the congestion charge zone.
Edited by robinessex on Tuesday 13th November 10:00
TonyHetherington said:
I double checked, but couldn't see where it mentioned that bit?! Would be surprising to put in all the infrastructure but only update half the tolls.
I think he means the tunnels themselves for the northern crossing direction cause traffic. The bridge is quicker to cross and less prone to traffic than the tunnels, all you need is a wide load or a small accident and the tunnel slows/stops.
I'm from Essex and moving permanently to Kent soon, the crossing is a joke, it was a quid when I first started seeing the Mrs in Kent, then £1.50 and now £2, I've applied for a Dart tah (£1.33) but needless to say - they arent rushing around sending it out - been almost a whole month now!
With regard to this scheme of ANPR and online billing - what do they tend to do to the technically inept proportion of the population who have no idea what an "interwebnet" is or how to use it?
These people exist. My parents are that way.
Further more - if they are sacking hundreds of toll booth employees then surely overheads are reducing dramatically meaning they can lower the price back down to a quid each way?
OK, so I have a stick on numberplate on the front of my MX5.
Every carpark that I have been to that does number plate recognition, holds me at the barrier until it has decided it cannot really read the plate, prints the plate number on the ticket as ####### and then eventually lets me through. Same delay on leaving.
So how will it work with the bridge, photo flagged for a human to read?
h
Every carpark that I have been to that does number plate recognition, holds me at the barrier until it has decided it cannot really read the plate, prints the plate number on the ticket as ####### and then eventually lets me through. Same delay on leaving.
So how will it work with the bridge, photo flagged for a human to read?
h
Ninjajim76 said:
I'm sure this would work for people who regularly use the bridge, and are therefore better informed.
The flipside is for the rest of the country who aren't. A couple of years back my wife and I were driving from Scotland to France - satnav took us via the bridge (cue comments) - we're not regulars, and if there hadn't been a barrier we would have just driven straight on, having no knowledge we'd just been fined for not having pre-empted our crossing by paying online....
Maybe they need to work out some method of sending blanket localised text messages to everyone going through the (non) barrier informing them of the need to pay.
I use the crossing more regularly than you do, maybe 5 or 6 crossings each year, but almost always on the way to or from France. A bit like the congestion charge (which I have only ever had to pay once) the time taken to go online, work out how to pay and process the payment could take longer than queuing for a toll booth - and I really hate doing that. Trying to pay online when in France after crossing at Dartford could be a nightmare!The flipside is for the rest of the country who aren't. A couple of years back my wife and I were driving from Scotland to France - satnav took us via the bridge (cue comments) - we're not regulars, and if there hadn't been a barrier we would have just driven straight on, having no knowledge we'd just been fined for not having pre-empted our crossing by paying online....
Maybe they need to work out some method of sending blanket localised text messages to everyone going through the (non) barrier informing them of the need to pay.
You can see it coming though. A scale of charges related to maintenance costs
£10 per suspension bridge, £5 for a normal bridge.
Many traffic lights already have cameras so say 50p every time you pass through
Roundabouts are low maintenance don't generally have cameras so might be free
Guess which we'll get more of?
£10 per suspension bridge, £5 for a normal bridge.
Many traffic lights already have cameras so say 50p every time you pass through
Roundabouts are low maintenance don't generally have cameras so might be free
Guess which we'll get more of?
andyps said:
I use the crossing more regularly than you do, maybe 5 or 6 crossings each year, but almost always on the way to or from France. A bit like the congestion charge (which I have only ever had to pay once) the time taken to go online, work out how to pay and process the payment could take longer than queuing for a toll booth - and I really hate doing that. Trying to pay online when in France after crossing at Dartford could be a nightmare!
I use the crossing on a weekly basis and I have no sympathy for you. Sorry, but sitting in endless traffic jams because of the toll booths is depressing and often means I cant do some things because I know I cant, for example, get home from work early enough and get from Kent to Essex in time to participate - predominantly because of the traffic there. Not to mention the infuriating times I get stuck behind some one who has a problem paying.
As others have said, this kind of automated enforcement rolled out nationally just increases the likelihood of normal people descending into lawlessness. Fake plates, unregistered cars, etc etc will all be more commonplace.
Although unpopular, it's far better to tax the one thing that all road users cannot avoid using - fuel. Ditch VED (falling revenues anyway), ditch road tolls. You could also resolve the problem of people driving without insurance by providing a government backed 3rd Party insurance paid for out of fuel tax. The more you use, the more you pay. Then you only pay extra for insurance if you want fully comp etc...
It's all so simple and obvious that it's no wonder the government hasn't done it.
Although unpopular, it's far better to tax the one thing that all road users cannot avoid using - fuel. Ditch VED (falling revenues anyway), ditch road tolls. You could also resolve the problem of people driving without insurance by providing a government backed 3rd Party insurance paid for out of fuel tax. The more you use, the more you pay. Then you only pay extra for insurance if you want fully comp etc...
It's all so simple and obvious that it's no wonder the government hasn't done it.
I know it's a wee bit smaller than the Dartford crossing, but the Erskine bridge is still a bridge and still needs maintenance etc... Thing is, a few years ago they got rid of the toll as the accumulated tolls to that point had paid for it - I'm sure there's a question there......
I should point out they still did it, even after the huge cost they must have incurred from the oilrig that crashed into it a few years back.
I should point out they still did it, even after the huge cost they must have incurred from the oilrig that crashed into it a few years back.
A tricky case, since the Congestion charge has come in I have never been into London, I do not believe in paying for something the Tax payer has already paid for. Yes I use the internet but no expert and have no Idea how to pay for the congestion charge.
If the toll booths are changed, I use them 2 or 3 times a year which to me does not make sense for me to set up an account give my personal details to a privately owned company to keep my card details on file!! Even if the government were running this schem how long would it be before a laptop with thousand of personal details was left on a train.
Would the call centre be moved to India to keep the charges down.
Will the cost of the camera set up increase the cost of the crossing?
How much effort will it take to confirm it was not your car going though the toll as your plate has been copied?? hours on the phone and plenty of letters.
I appreciate the ones who commute daily through the tolls would benefit but here's an idea, why not leave 5 tolls for non regular drivers who can pay in sterling and who do not want an internet account to pay twice a year, and for the foreign registered trucks/cars.
If the toll booths are changed, I use them 2 or 3 times a year which to me does not make sense for me to set up an account give my personal details to a privately owned company to keep my card details on file!! Even if the government were running this schem how long would it be before a laptop with thousand of personal details was left on a train.
Would the call centre be moved to India to keep the charges down.
Will the cost of the camera set up increase the cost of the crossing?
How much effort will it take to confirm it was not your car going though the toll as your plate has been copied?? hours on the phone and plenty of letters.
I appreciate the ones who commute daily through the tolls would benefit but here's an idea, why not leave 5 tolls for non regular drivers who can pay in sterling and who do not want an internet account to pay twice a year, and for the foreign registered trucks/cars.
They really are an utter bunch of idiots running this country, aren't they?
If you need more money for the roads - use the road tax we pay appropriately! I seem to remember a figure of about 20% of our road tax actually goes back into the road network, the rest just goes into the big Government honey pot to pay for work shy a
holes' Sky TV packages, illegal immigrant NHS healthcare, housing for terrorists and, of course, decorating costs and fancy toilet seats for our beloved politicians' second homes. That's not to mention the double tax on fuel of both VAT and fuel duty!!
How do they not see that if you start charging people to drive on motorways they will just head to the already congested A-roads? Just look at the deserted M6 Toll Road and congested A5 running alongside it. Then what, charge people to drive on them too? Brilliant, stick another eyesore pole with a camera on it on every sodding road to join the litter of needless road signs at a cost of £50 billon, then just as it's all finished announce that it won't work and everyone will need a blackbox fitted to the car instead. Genius.
It really does make me so mad how we waste so much money and then instead of doing something about it and solving the problems just keep milking us for more.
Utter, utter wkers.
If you need more money for the roads - use the road tax we pay appropriately! I seem to remember a figure of about 20% of our road tax actually goes back into the road network, the rest just goes into the big Government honey pot to pay for work shy a
holes' Sky TV packages, illegal immigrant NHS healthcare, housing for terrorists and, of course, decorating costs and fancy toilet seats for our beloved politicians' second homes. That's not to mention the double tax on fuel of both VAT and fuel duty!!How do they not see that if you start charging people to drive on motorways they will just head to the already congested A-roads? Just look at the deserted M6 Toll Road and congested A5 running alongside it. Then what, charge people to drive on them too? Brilliant, stick another eyesore pole with a camera on it on every sodding road to join the litter of needless road signs at a cost of £50 billon, then just as it's all finished announce that it won't work and everyone will need a blackbox fitted to the car instead. Genius.
It really does make me so mad how we waste so much money and then instead of doing something about it and solving the problems just keep milking us for more.
Utter, utter w
kers.Ninjajim76 said:
I'm sure this would work for people who regularly use the bridge, and are therefore better informed.
The flipside is for the rest of the country who aren't. A couple of years back my wife and I were driving from Scotland to France - satnav took us via the bridge (cue comments) - we're not regulars, and if there hadn't been a barrier we would have just driven straight on, having no knowledge we'd just been fined for not having pre-empted our crossing by paying online....
Maybe they need to work out some method of sending blanket localised text messages to everyone going through the (non) barrier informing them of the need to pay.
Do you require a physical barrier to stop you and tell you that a road has changed from 60 to 30 or which way to drive on a one way street? The flipside is for the rest of the country who aren't. A couple of years back my wife and I were driving from Scotland to France - satnav took us via the bridge (cue comments) - we're not regulars, and if there hadn't been a barrier we would have just driven straight on, having no knowledge we'd just been fined for not having pre-empted our crossing by paying online....
Maybe they need to work out some method of sending blanket localised text messages to everyone going through the (non) barrier informing them of the need to pay.
Ninjajim76 said:
I'm sure this would work for people who regularly use the bridge, and are therefore better informed.
The flipside is for the rest of the country who aren't. A couple of years back my wife and I were driving from Scotland to France - satnav took us via the bridge (cue comments) - we're not regulars, and if there hadn't been a barrier we would have just driven straight on, having no knowledge we'd just been fined for not having pre-empted our crossing by paying online....
Maybe they need to work out some method of sending blanket localised text messages to everyone going through the (non) barrier informing them of the need to pay.
Yes I completely agree. I use the Bridge and Dartford tunnel to get to and from Bluewater. Other than that not very often. I don’t want to have to go online just to pay £1.50 once every 3 month, it’d be quicker for me to pay by waiting in the queue.The flipside is for the rest of the country who aren't. A couple of years back my wife and I were driving from Scotland to France - satnav took us via the bridge (cue comments) - we're not regulars, and if there hadn't been a barrier we would have just driven straight on, having no knowledge we'd just been fined for not having pre-empted our crossing by paying online....
Maybe they need to work out some method of sending blanket localised text messages to everyone going through the (non) barrier informing them of the need to pay.
And what if you are old and don’t like/ are not used to using computers? And also, like you said, if your not used to the area, or are diverted from another road, and have to use the toll but haven’t paid online? They should just make the bridge free.
The road tax that I pay each year can go towards its upkeep because the government don’t seem to want to use it for filling in potholes, or anything else.
Edited by MrScrot on Tuesday 13th November 10:31
Edited by MrScrot on Tuesday 13th November 10:33
DonkeyApple said:
Do you require a physical barrier to stop you and tell you that a road has changed from 60 to 30 or which way to drive on a one way street?
Nope, but I would like to be aware I'm being charged for something when it's not entirely obvious I actually am..... Assume here that I'd never seen this article.... or perhaps I'd worked hard and could spend longer than a couple of weeks on the continent and would therefore not get back home in time to find out I need to pay the low rate fine for going over a bridge which didn't have any obvious pay booths (and had in the past) - read the comment I made about the erskine bridge - and therefore could be assumed to be free.... I'm fairly certain there are a lot of people in other weird and wonderful situations who would be excessively disadvantaged by this system.... How about this as an idea - use your numberplate recognition technology in advance to work out which vehicles are regular users of your facility, then contact them offering them a Dart Tag (they can still pay for it online - same as they are proposing). Keep a few booths (max 3 or 4) for those of us who still want the option of throwing cash into a bucket, putting our card into a slot (like the m6 toll) or dealing with a human being, and make the rest Tag lanes only. Yes, not as free-flowing as having no booths whatsoever, but a lot better from the perspective of actually getting money from your punters, not pushing an increase in criminality, and would be a lot better than it is at the moment.
PHMatt said:
I'm from Essex and moving permanently to Kent soon, the crossing is a joke, it was a quid when I first started seeing the Mrs in Kent, then £1.50 and now £2, I've applied for a Dart tah (£1.33) but needless to say - they arent rushing around sending it out - been almost a whole month now!
I remember 90p a car. I think I wasn't driving then (passed test in 1998) but remember counting out 90p to hand to my dad 
Everyone longed for it to be a quid back in those 90p days
Oh how naive we were!Apparently the tolls have already paid for all future maintenance costs. Not sure how you can estimate that though, unless the bridge has a fixed life (can't wait for the point in time they have to build a new one!). Do tunnels have a fixed life? Sometime after they were supposed to remove the charges, the justification on the website for keeping them was that the charge is there to prevent congestion. I kid you not.
I saw a headline the other week saying the Blackwall Tunnel was also going to have a charge. I didn't read the article but that would therefore mean the only way to get over the Thames for free east of West London will be via a few bridges east of the Congestion Zone and the Rotherhithe Tunnel. The former are still in central London (i.e. very busy from early in the morning to late at night) and the latter is not suitable for mass traffic (and often is also a traffic nightmare).
But I suppose that is the logic behind it all. Necessity. The majority of punters can't change their routine, so tough.
The idea that they are expecting non-frequent flyers to log on to the internet after they have used it and pay is...interesting. As if we haven't got enough to do already.
Therefore, the best option is therefore to remove the tolls completely. Simple. Oh, wait..
I saw a headline the other week saying the Blackwall Tunnel was also going to have a charge. I didn't read the article but that would therefore mean the only way to get over the Thames for free east of West London will be via a few bridges east of the Congestion Zone and the Rotherhithe Tunnel. The former are still in central London (i.e. very busy from early in the morning to late at night) and the latter is not suitable for mass traffic (and often is also a traffic nightmare).
But I suppose that is the logic behind it all. Necessity. The majority of punters can't change their routine, so tough.
The idea that they are expecting non-frequent flyers to log on to the internet after they have used it and pay is...interesting. As if we haven't got enough to do already.
Therefore, the best option is therefore to remove the tolls completely. Simple. Oh, wait..
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