RE: PH Blog: the new driving
Discussion
kambites said:
MagicalTrevor said:
So aside from the standard 'MX5' comment, is there anything else that is communicative, fun and able to get the tail out on demand?
Wasn't this pretty much the whole point of the GT86/BRZ? I'm not sure that over-steer on demand is anything to do with the modern vs older car argument anyway; that's just a question of person preference. Some of us prefer to have traction.
MagicalTrevor said:
So aside from the standard 'MX5' comment, is there anything else that is communicative, fun and able to get the tail out on demand?
Dear Toyota and Subaru,There is still a person who hasn't heard about your new car. I've no idea how this is possible, but could you send out even more press releases.
Thanks.
Seeing as I am one of those 'berks' in a car company's marketing department I feel I should put our (MY) side of the story across!
What a marketing department does is try and meet consumer demand, and with sports cars, that 'demand' is generally a regurgitation of what they are told by the media. The average car publication will tell them what is good and not good about a car being driven around a track on it's lock-stops in a manner so far from what the average person is ever going to do with there car it's untrue (literally). To perform in these tests (and thus sell) a car has to be engineered to perform on track or being driven across Snowdonia at unimaginable speed and there in lies the problem. A car designed for a road test and not a person.
There seem to be more and more articles lamenting the loss of 'feel' and that as a petrolhead is a good thing, but a case in point is the Toyota GT86, a car designed to give you 'feel' in buckets and low and behold they get - "it's great...but can't it just be a bit faster", or "isn't it fun...but with some more torque it could perform big smoking drifts". So poor slightly baffled Toyota will undoubtedly be bringing out the supercharged TRD version on 18's soon and I would imagine every article will close with something along the line of it not quite having the 'feel' of the original... come on chaps, give us a chance!
[Goes to await P45 delivered by someone in PR!]
What a marketing department does is try and meet consumer demand, and with sports cars, that 'demand' is generally a regurgitation of what they are told by the media. The average car publication will tell them what is good and not good about a car being driven around a track on it's lock-stops in a manner so far from what the average person is ever going to do with there car it's untrue (literally). To perform in these tests (and thus sell) a car has to be engineered to perform on track or being driven across Snowdonia at unimaginable speed and there in lies the problem. A car designed for a road test and not a person.
There seem to be more and more articles lamenting the loss of 'feel' and that as a petrolhead is a good thing, but a case in point is the Toyota GT86, a car designed to give you 'feel' in buckets and low and behold they get - "it's great...but can't it just be a bit faster", or "isn't it fun...but with some more torque it could perform big smoking drifts". So poor slightly baffled Toyota will undoubtedly be bringing out the supercharged TRD version on 18's soon and I would imagine every article will close with something along the line of it not quite having the 'feel' of the original... come on chaps, give us a chance!
[Goes to await P45 delivered by someone in PR!]
MagicalTrevor said:
kambites said:
MagicalTrevor said:
So aside from the standard 'MX5' comment, is there anything else that is communicative, fun and able to get the tail out on demand?
Wasn't this pretty much the whole point of the GT86/BRZ? I'm not sure that over-steer on demand is anything to do with the modern vs older car argument anyway; that's just a question of person preference. Some of us prefer to have traction.
The article is about new cars, of which there are still some fun, communicative cars out there (GT86, Elise, Evora, my driving experience of current cars is limited)
Edited by Captain Muppet on Wednesday 14th November 11:20
TobesH said:
Agree too! My little Seven rides so much better than my B7 Audi! As for steering feel and communicative feedback... Audi... pah!
Completely agree with you about Audi steering. My gf has just replaced her B7 with a B8 and the steering is even worse. It feels like you're twisting a large paddle in a vat of porridge.People want quantifiable improvement with these so called better models and improved levels of technology. It just needs a few of the bigger companies to make lighter, smaller but somehow measurable improvement in performance over the lardy cars for the tables to turn.
The majority of performance cars are still bought by regular drivers who don't know or care about the "seat of the pants experience", they simply look at the figures and see it's faster to 0-60 or top speed therefore it must be better.
The majority of performance cars are still bought by regular drivers who don't know or care about the "seat of the pants experience", they simply look at the figures and see it's faster to 0-60 or top speed therefore it must be better.
It's simple there is not enough people now who actually have a passion for driving, but there are plenty who like others to think they have a passion. And it is those that the marketing departments are prime to target. Look at the number of Audi As owners who buy one because its an Audi and therefore of course it is sporty to drive!!
The only hope for those of us that do care is to buy older. Although the GT86 is a rare modern return to form.
Regards,
MyCC.
The only hope for those of us that do care is to buy older. Although the GT86 is a rare modern return to form.
Regards,
MyCC.
MX7 said:
Good article.
The car companies have convinced the public that we want some fairly daft and expensive equipment, and I'm sure that the manufacturers are reaping the rewards.
That's the beauty with technology, once it's implemented it pretty much has an endless scope for improvement which can be released in drips to please the tech heads i.e. Apple.The car companies have convinced the public that we want some fairly daft and expensive equipment, and I'm sure that the manufacturers are reaping the rewards.
v8will said:
Ah the GT86, back to basics etc and then largely frowned upon for not having an extra 100BHP
Quite. Over the last couple of years, even this corner of the Internet, which is allegedly populated by car and driving enthusiasts, seem to get confused about things. How many times have you seen people asserting that a good-handling car is one that can pull 6G in corners? How many times have you read an article about a new car only to see someone within the first few posts mention that it needs or should have another 50, 100 or 200bhp?People seem to be conditioned by competition. Whether it's competition from similarly priced vehicles or competition with their neighbours about who can have the shinest item on their driveway. It's all one big p*ssing contest between manufacturers making numb, rock-solid but very able cars and owners basically looking for the most expensive four-wheeled iPhone charger they can find.
I think the current generation of cars could well be the nadir in terms of driving pleasure.....over the last ten or fifteen years we have seen cars get heavier and heavier to meet (we are told) safety standards but also to lug around more and more electronic gizmos that aren't strictly necessary.
This was fine for car manufacturers as advances in engine tech meant they could deliver increased performance and fuel consumption (most of the time) whilst the weight ballooned. I suppose for the last five years we've seen a change where fuel consumption has become ever more important as not even enthusiasts can ignore the running costs with fuel at today's prices. We're now starting to see new models that are lighter than the cars they replace which will hopefully accelerate over the next ten years.....what price a 1200 or 1300 kg 3 series with today's engine tech?
This was fine for car manufacturers as advances in engine tech meant they could deliver increased performance and fuel consumption (most of the time) whilst the weight ballooned. I suppose for the last five years we've seen a change where fuel consumption has become ever more important as not even enthusiasts can ignore the running costs with fuel at today's prices. We're now starting to see new models that are lighter than the cars they replace which will hopefully accelerate over the next ten years.....what price a 1200 or 1300 kg 3 series with today's engine tech?
Ironically I was thinking about this yesterday.
Basic, good (through looks or driving experience) cars sell well, so why doesn't anyone make them at the moment?
Some of the best ever selling cars happen to be simple ones, for example:
Mazda MX5, Volkswagen Beetle, Lada Riva, Ford Model T, Citroen 2CV, Peugeot 205, Renault 4, Fiat Uno and the Fiat 500.
I suspect the next big selling car will be conceived by a few guys designing in their spare time because they have had an idea for a great simple car, rather than an enormous engineering and marketing department corroboration, which will nicely aid in filtering out all the good bits for a great simple design.
Basic, good (through looks or driving experience) cars sell well, so why doesn't anyone make them at the moment?
Some of the best ever selling cars happen to be simple ones, for example:
Mazda MX5, Volkswagen Beetle, Lada Riva, Ford Model T, Citroen 2CV, Peugeot 205, Renault 4, Fiat Uno and the Fiat 500.
I suspect the next big selling car will be conceived by a few guys designing in their spare time because they have had an idea for a great simple car, rather than an enormous engineering and marketing department corroboration, which will nicely aid in filtering out all the good bits for a great simple design.
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