RE: PH Blog: the new driving
Discussion
Not driven an Elise recently, but a quick hoon a few years back in a Mk2 111 seemed to suggest they'd dialled-in understeer - presumably for 'safety', to accommodate those stepping from FWD - and made it a blunter instrument than the original. Is this still the case or did they sort it?
Hammer. Nail. Head. Harris telling it exactly like it is. I have a B7 RS4 avant that I am considering swapping next spring. But I cant think of anything better to change it for that gives the same blend of practicality, performance and driving pleasure. Suggestions welcome (no BMW's).
nickfrog said:
Reardy Mister said:
nickfrog said:
Reardy Mister said:
it has been blessed with 255 section rear tyres and no LSD. (...) No LSD to easily overcome both sides and evoke a low speed slide.
A LSD is device that increases traction, not reduce it so its absence would be a help if anything.But if you wanted deliberately to overcome grip in a low grip situation, it helps to have drive to both tyres.
Why do I get the feeling that even responding to this post is the beginning of the hiding to nowhere?
No idea about "hiding to nowhere" but looking into what a LSD is (and does) and also understanding the difference between lateral grip and traction might help a little. It's not very complicated.
Firstly, I got my first LSD at 19yrs, so I know what they do and how they work and their various side effects.
They do not inherently increase traction at all, as was said, they simply reduce the speed differential (there's a clue) between the driven wheels, or more specifically, the wheels capable of being driven.
Ignoring the physics, which is to vastly over-think my reasons for mentioning the LSD in the first place, here is a question for you:
I'm in my car on an area of black ice, not moving. You couldn't approach my car and push on the rear quarter panel to move the back of it, the tyres aren't turning and they are effectively gripping. I get in, add some throttle and one rear wheel spins. You still could not approach the rear of my car, give it a shove and move the back end. Nor by turning the steering wheel.
Now, using my special powers of magic I add a locked diff or LSD (or for realism, lets say I fitted an air locker, giving me the ability to close or open the diff from inside the car). Now I add gas and still the car goes nowhere but now TWO wheels are spinning and if you lean on the car OR turn the steering wheel, you CAN influence the position of the back of the car, because neither tyre has good purchase on the road surface.
Now, has the locked diff increased or decreased traction?
An LSD doesn't increase traction, it merely affects the car's ability to apply power to the road. The side effect of that CAN BE either better transference to road (by sharing it across more than one driven wheel) or worse (by overcoming more than one driven wheel), depending on the conditions and how you use it.
Its really not that complicated.
Digga said:
Not driven an Elise recently, but a quick hoon a few years back in a Mk2 111 seemed to suggest they'd dialled-in understeer - presumably for 'safety', to accommodate those stepping from FWD - and made it a blunter instrument than the original. Is this still the case or did they sort it?
It's largely just down to the camber, which is obviously adjustable and needs to be set up regularly on a car like that anyway. I have no idea what the current factory camber settings are, but in practice Lotus were so poor that setting the geo in the factory anyway, that the first thing I'd do even if buying a brand new Elise is get the suspension geometry set up. The Exige comes with wider front tyres which also has a positive effect on front-end grip (at least in the dry) but unfortunately it also makes the steering feel comparatively numb.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 15th November 11:36
At last i can take myself take from the metaphorical precipice and take comfort that everyone else seems to feel the same way.
I was applying for a job at JCB once and one of the engineers told me that if you cant turn the esp edl tcs etc, etc off the car mechanically is crap. And without the computer trying constantly to hold the thing on the road you'd be getting very friendly with the nearest tree even if you were colin mcrae at the wheel (RIP). Cars now, like aircraft are designed to be built fly by wire like the eurofighter amongst others they are designed to be unstable so its supposedly agile because its far easier to write a piece of software that reads a plethora of sensors all over the car interpret that and then act on that passively. OK proactive handling tricks are around but cars now have a purely responsive electronic driver and a commander (the driver).
I want to change my ibiza cupra but cant think of much else to change it with because of this.
I was applying for a job at JCB once and one of the engineers told me that if you cant turn the esp edl tcs etc, etc off the car mechanically is crap. And without the computer trying constantly to hold the thing on the road you'd be getting very friendly with the nearest tree even if you were colin mcrae at the wheel (RIP). Cars now, like aircraft are designed to be built fly by wire like the eurofighter amongst others they are designed to be unstable so its supposedly agile because its far easier to write a piece of software that reads a plethora of sensors all over the car interpret that and then act on that passively. OK proactive handling tricks are around but cars now have a purely responsive electronic driver and a commander (the driver).
I want to change my ibiza cupra but cant think of much else to change it with because of this.
Reardy Mister said:
nickfrog said:
Reardy Mister said:
nickfrog said:
Reardy Mister said:
it has been blessed with 255 section rear tyres and no LSD. (...) No LSD to easily overcome both sides and evoke a low speed slide.
A LSD is device that increases traction, not reduce it so its absence would be a help if anything.But if you wanted deliberately to overcome grip in a low grip situation, it helps to have drive to both tyres.
Why do I get the feeling that even responding to this post is the beginning of the hiding to nowhere?
No idea about "hiding to nowhere" but looking into what a LSD is (and does) and also understanding the difference between lateral grip and traction might help a little. It's not very complicated.
You don't need drive to ANY wheels to lose lateral grip btw (not to be confused with longitudinal traction), but where your BMW refuses to let you play (even if you ignore the electronics) is that the suspension is set up to let the front end lose lateral grip first (ie understeer). If it was set up to let the rear end lose adhesion first (even off throttle), then you'd find it very easy to induce a loss of traction, LSD or not.
Think of it as the tyres having to produce 2 types of friction based adhesion to the road : lateral acceleration when the car corners (what most people call "grip") and longitudinal acceleration (when the car accelerates and brakes), called traction. The tyres can only cope with so much of one (full throttle in a staight line) or the other (full lock even off throttle in a corner at speed) or (crucially in this instance) a combination of both. If you could generate enough lateral acceleration for the rear tyres to almost lose lateral grip, then all you would need is a tiny prod on the throttle to also lose traction (electronics allowing), LSD or not. What actually happens now is that when you apply the throttle out of a corner and even if you still have a lot of lock on, you exacerbates the understeer, hence the rear end having no chance to step out. In most applications, and unless you have a very pointy front end, LSDs actually increase understeer, so having one fitted would really not have helped.
You could easily add a little front neg camber to your car and/or reduce the rear camber to make the car neutral, or even oversteery.
The vast majority of people I know who buy cars are mainly interested in the toys it comes with, the driving dynamics and handling ability are well down the list. Most of them have no idea what a good handling car is or feels like. Just ask any X5 / Q7 owner and they'll tell you how great the handling is, when anyone with any knowledge at all knows they're actually s
t, really st.
I spent ages looking at a car to buy, always wanted a 911 but after trying just about every variation of that car I came away un-impressed.
Eventually settled on a Lotus Evora, it was sold to me (and my other half) within the first couple of miles by the feeling of driving it along with the looks.
So here we have a locally based company building amazing looking and handling cars that are not too pricey and have very reasonable running costs yet how many do you see around?
Hardly any, I've yet to see another one on the move and I'm told there only about forty of them up here in Bonnie Scotland.
I think the problem is that people like us who appreciate a car as a driving and entertaining machine are in a very small minority. Everyone else buys the badge, the toys, the warranty and thinks that as their new Audi A4 (for example) cost them £40k it just has to be great. Dumb as fk if you ask me but what would I know, I'm in the very small minority!
t, really st.I spent ages looking at a car to buy, always wanted a 911 but after trying just about every variation of that car I came away un-impressed.
Eventually settled on a Lotus Evora, it was sold to me (and my other half) within the first couple of miles by the feeling of driving it along with the looks.
So here we have a locally based company building amazing looking and handling cars that are not too pricey and have very reasonable running costs yet how many do you see around?
Hardly any, I've yet to see another one on the move and I'm told there only about forty of them up here in Bonnie Scotland.
I think the problem is that people like us who appreciate a car as a driving and entertaining machine are in a very small minority. Everyone else buys the badge, the toys, the warranty and thinks that as their new Audi A4 (for example) cost them £40k it just has to be great. Dumb as f
k if you ask me but what would I know, I'm in the very small minority!
Andy ap said:
At last i can take myself take from the metaphorical precipice and take comfort that everyone else seems to feel the same way.
I was applying for a job at JCB once and one of the engineers told me that if you cant turn the esp edl tcs etc, etc off the car mechanically is crap. And without the computer trying constantly to hold the thing on the road you'd be getting very friendly with the nearest tree even if you were colin mcrae at the wheel (RIP). Cars now, like aircraft are designed to be built fly by wire like the eurofighter amongst others they are designed to be unstable so its supposedly agile because its far easier to write a piece of software that reads a plethora of sensors all over the car interpret that and then act on that passively. OK proactive handling tricks are around but cars now have a purely responsive electronic driver and a commander (the driver).
I want to change my ibiza cupra but cant think of much else to change it with because of this.
Yes, those chaps at JCB are quite the industry experts when it comes to automotive ride and handling.I was applying for a job at JCB once and one of the engineers told me that if you cant turn the esp edl tcs etc, etc off the car mechanically is crap. And without the computer trying constantly to hold the thing on the road you'd be getting very friendly with the nearest tree even if you were colin mcrae at the wheel (RIP). Cars now, like aircraft are designed to be built fly by wire like the eurofighter amongst others they are designed to be unstable so its supposedly agile because its far easier to write a piece of software that reads a plethora of sensors all over the car interpret that and then act on that passively. OK proactive handling tricks are around but cars now have a purely responsive electronic driver and a commander (the driver).
I want to change my ibiza cupra but cant think of much else to change it with because of this.
To be fair, the ride quality that the major car manufacturers are slowly converging on does seem to be modelled on that of a road-roller. nickfrog said:
Reardy Mister said:
nickfrog said:
Reardy Mister said:
nickfrog said:
Reardy Mister said:
it has been blessed with 255 section rear tyres and no LSD. (...) No LSD to easily overcome both sides and evoke a low speed slide.
A LSD is device that increases traction, not reduce it so its absence would be a help if anything.But if you wanted deliberately to overcome grip in a low grip situation, it helps to have drive to both tyres.
Why do I get the feeling that even responding to this post is the beginning of the hiding to nowhere?
No idea about "hiding to nowhere" but looking into what a LSD is (and does) and also understanding the difference between lateral grip and traction might help a little. It's not very complicated.
nickfrog said:
You don't need drive to ANY wheels to lose lateral grip btw (not to be confused with longitudinal traction),
Yes, I understand that. But I find swinging the wheel wildly to provoke a slide a bit amateurish.nickfrog said:
but where your BMW refuses to let you play (even if you ignore the electronics) is that the suspension is set up to let the front end lose lateral grip first (ie understeer). If it was set up to let the rear end lose adhesion first (even off throttle), then you'd find it very easy to induce a loss of traction, LSD or not.
Yes, I've driven a MKI Vectra. My car doesn't actually push the front very much at all, DTC or no. Its *fairly* neutral.
nickfrog said:
Think of it as the tyres having to produce 2 types of friction based adhesion to the road : lateral acceleration when the car corners (what most people call "grip") and longitudinal acceleration (when the car accelerates and brakes), called traction. The tyres can only cope with so much of one (full throttle in a staight line) or the other (full lock even off throttle in a corner at speed) or (crucially in this instance) a combination of both. If you could generate enough lateral acceleration for the rear tyres to almost lose lateral grip, then all you would need is a tiny prod on the throttle to also lose traction (electronics allowing), LSD or not.
Yes yes, I know. What I'm saying is, I like to overcome the longitudinal before I start influencing the lateral, I find it gives more predictable results.nickfrog said:
so having one fitted would really not have helped.
For a low grip scenario and given the what Im talking about trying to achieve, I disagree.nickfrog said:
You could easily add a little front neg camber to your car and/or reduce the rear camber to make the car neutral, or even oversteery.
I could, but I don't want to effect the handling overall (lane changes, long sweeping bends etc), I would just like it to be more fun on wet roundabouts. To do that I need the rear to step out using power, not steering inputs (to begin with). To do that I need drive to both tyres and to do that I need an LSD.
AND you still didn't answer my question.
ATEOTD, people like to impress other people, especially people they don't really know.
So long as that is the case, and it will be for a long time, people will want to see their POS Diesel be ahead in the lap time test.
It's an age old version of 'My Dad is harder than your Dad'.
To which Frankie Boyle so delicately responds 'My Dad will sh4g your Dad...and your dad will enjoy it'. Loosely translated as 'Who feucking cares!'.
Hence, my daily driver is a push bike. And if I did need a car for commuting it'd be a Toyota Aygo - one of the most fun cars I have ever driven, Sounds like an air cooled 911, £20 tax and 60mpg. It also has identical performance figures to a Ferrari 458 on the M6 at 8.30am.
And for pure driving thrills, I have a 240bhp NA Westfield Cosworth. When I do drive it on the road, I limit myself to 4500rpm and it's absolutely brilliant fun, even in the wet.
Drivers' cars are still plenty available, just that they don't have the 'Kudos' people crave.
So long as that is the case, and it will be for a long time, people will want to see their POS Diesel be ahead in the lap time test.
It's an age old version of 'My Dad is harder than your Dad'.
To which Frankie Boyle so delicately responds 'My Dad will sh4g your Dad...and your dad will enjoy it'. Loosely translated as 'Who feucking cares!'.
Hence, my daily driver is a push bike. And if I did need a car for commuting it'd be a Toyota Aygo - one of the most fun cars I have ever driven, Sounds like an air cooled 911, £20 tax and 60mpg. It also has identical performance figures to a Ferrari 458 on the M6 at 8.30am.
And for pure driving thrills, I have a 240bhp NA Westfield Cosworth. When I do drive it on the road, I limit myself to 4500rpm and it's absolutely brilliant fun, even in the wet.
Drivers' cars are still plenty available, just that they don't have the 'Kudos' people crave.
windy1 said:
This is why it is very important to recalibrate your backside by driving something old once in a while.
We have a manufacturers car scheme at work and I have ended up arguing with them to supply me with a car that doesn't have stupidly stiff suspension and massive wheels.
Like someone said it IS the marketing bods that decide cars must have rock hard suspension and elastic band tyres. They do this because cars look good on the forecourt at reselling time, after I've handed it back to them with a few miles on it in a few months.
Your post reads as if you are working for a car manufacturer but your profile doesn't confirm that. What you do confirm, however, is that the marketing bods are doing what they are paid to do - offering a product which customers want to buy. The customer wants to buy a car which looks good, the marketing bods offer a car which looks good, people buy them. By maximising the chances of a quick sale at the highest possible price at resale time the outcome required is achieved.We have a manufacturers car scheme at work and I have ended up arguing with them to supply me with a car that doesn't have stupidly stiff suspension and massive wheels.
Like someone said it IS the marketing bods that decide cars must have rock hard suspension and elastic band tyres. They do this because cars look good on the forecourt at reselling time, after I've handed it back to them with a few miles on it in a few months.
andyps said:
...the marketing bods are doing what they are paid to do - offering a product which customers want to buy. The customer wants to buy a car which looks good, the marketing bods offer a car which looks good, people buy them. By maximising the chances of a quick sale at the highest possible price at resale time the outcome required is achieved.
You are absolutely right. Today's ...er... "sports cars" have simply become examples of conspicuous consumption. They say no more than that about their owners. They are shaped by customer surveys more than anything else. They are fit with so many items to keep the unskilled from making a mess of themselves that even the most brilliant driver couldn't find a way to express that brilliance in any of them. They divorce the driver so severely from interaction, that the nanny's Vauxhall requires more acumen at 1/3 the speed. And they even have their buyers bragging about all of it!! What next? Sets of pretty self-swinging golf clubs? We can brag about their flight control, spin adjustment, fade and draw dials. (giggle) After all, if we can place a missle within cms of a target 1000s of kms away, why should I work on my short game? I'll buy a short game.
Sad tho. There is nothing more enjoyable than refining a car and yourself until that partnership reaches heights only another enthusiast can match.
Edited by plushuit on Thursday 15th November 15:56
"Who decided suspension shouldn't absorb bumps?" No it wasn't the marketing men Chris, not directly at least, it was motoring journos who until recently used to decry anything that didn't deliver at 10/10ths on a testing B-road. Now, whether those same journos have grown up a bit (like those of us who read you and your colleagues) and realised that real world motoring is actually a little less exciting, and therefore we need cars that just do the job 80% of the time - and go mad for an occasional 20% of the time - or whether it's just the new buzz subject of motoring journos... who knows? But car makers - possibly via their marketing guys, but just as equally the engineering teams - have answered those critics that make up a fraction of the car buying public and made cars that are 'sporty', ie. hard ride but go round corners fast. So it's actually the fault of the journos.
Whinge over. I generally love your articles, and have done for a bloody long time. But I'm sick of self righteous journos that blame everything on marketing - a subject most of them don't have an understanding of. Keep up the good work, just lay off the easy target of marketing.
Whinge over. I generally love your articles, and have done for a bloody long time. But I'm sick of self righteous journos that blame everything on marketing - a subject most of them don't have an understanding of. Keep up the good work, just lay off the easy target of marketing.
paulmaurice99 said:
"Who decided suspension shouldn't absorb bumps?" No it wasn't the marketing men Chris, not directly at least, it was motoring journos who until recently used to decry anything that didn't deliver at 10/10ths on a testing B-road. Now, whether those same journos have grown up a bit (like those of us who read you and your colleagues) and realised that real world motoring is actually a little less exciting, and therefore we need cars that just do the job 80% of the time - and go mad for an occasional 20% of the time - or whether it's just the new buzz subject of motoring journos... who knows? But car makers - possibly via their marketing guys, but just as equally the engineering teams - have answered those critics that make up a fraction of the car buying public and made cars that are 'sporty', ie. hard ride but go round corners fast. So it's actually the fault of the journos.
Whinge over. I generally love your articles, and have done for a bloody long time. But I'm sick of self righteous journos that blame everything on marketing - a subject most of them don't have an understanding of. Keep up the good work, just lay off the easy target of marketing.
Basically what I was going to write.Whinge over. I generally love your articles, and have done for a bloody long time. But I'm sick of self righteous journos that blame everything on marketing - a subject most of them don't have an understanding of. Keep up the good work, just lay off the easy target of marketing.
In the same way it seams very popular to complain about supposedly overly intrusive diver aides and heavy cars. There are options out there that are light weight and unassisted, but for most that not what is wanted or needed.
Everything goes full circle, just look at fashion for example. Fingers crossed the same will happen with the motor industry. Lotus to lead the way.
It's all a marketing tool, make things worse then use the bad features to promote the new improved product, when it shouldn't of been tampered with from the start. If that make sense.
It's all a marketing tool, make things worse then use the bad features to promote the new improved product, when it shouldn't of been tampered with from the start. If that make sense.
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