RE: PH Blog: the new driving
Discussion
paulmaurice99 said:
"Who decided suspension shouldn't absorb bumps?" No it wasn't the marketing men Chris, not directly at least, it was motoring journos who until recently used to decry anything that didn't deliver at 10/10ths on a testing B-road.
But hard suspension is not what you need for a testing B-road. A smooth track, maybe.paulmaurice99 said:
"Who decided suspension shouldn't absorb bumps?" No it wasn't the marketing men Chris, not directly at least, it was motoring journos who until recently used to decry anything that didn't deliver at 10/10ths on a testing B-road. Now, whether those same journos have grown up a bit (like those of us who read you and your colleagues) and realised that real world motoring is actually a little less exciting, and therefore we need cars that just do the job 80% of the time - and go mad for an occasional 20% of the time - or whether it's just the new buzz subject of motoring journos... who knows? But car makers - possibly via their marketing guys, but just as equally the engineering teams - have answered those critics that make up a fraction of the car buying public and made cars that are 'sporty', ie. hard ride but go round corners fast. So it's actually the fault of the journos.
Whinge over. I generally love your articles, and have done for a bloody long time. But I'm sick of self righteous journos that blame everything on marketing - a subject most of them don't have an understanding of. Keep up the good work, just lay off the easy target of marketing.
You have got to be kidding marketing guru's dont know a thing except how to manipulate people, the only skill in marketing is telling someone they want something which they dont need! Dont you ever wonder why there's a constant saturation of new technology coming out from different manufacturers. To avoid going off topic you see it everyday life there is now too much reliance on technolgy and not enough engineering skill. If car manufacturers invested as much time in engineering as they did in making fancy climate control, sat navs, automatically opening doors and boots (i mean seriously, thank you America) and in car entertainment the automotive world would be a much better place.Whinge over. I generally love your articles, and have done for a bloody long time. But I'm sick of self righteous journos that blame everything on marketing - a subject most of them don't have an understanding of. Keep up the good work, just lay off the easy target of marketing.
Edited by Andy ap on Thursday 15th November 18:00
No time to read through the responses etc tonight but wanted to throw in my support for the article. Hence why I love driving my S2 106 more than my 2008 350Z (even though I've added Bilsteins etc etc which have transformed it into a softer happier car) and why I'm looking forward to getting the Mk2 RS2000 out of the garage next year! Never had more fun that with live rear axles tail sliding at low and safe speeds on the way to short stage competitions where I excentuated those slides!
bertie said:
otolith said:
But hard suspension is not what you need for a testing B-road. A smooth track, maybe.
So lets say you were after a really good riding, smooth, quiet, comfortable, refined, new car for the family, moderate budget of say £40k, what would you go for???otolith said:
I would probably head down to the Lexus showroom. But I wasn't disputing that there is a problem, just pointing out that it isn't B-road competence that has created it.
Sorry, that question wasn't particularly directed at you.It was just a general question.
And for the record, I agree with you, it's the journos obsession with sticking cars on track that's pushed things this way.
Well said Chris
Not sure any cars in the 'performance league' currently on sale meet your requirements.
Weight through safety,electrical kit etc all add - my sons e92 M3 had something like 8 speakers!
The GT 86 must be closest
Being a bit older I recall Lancia Fulvia, Alfa GTV 1750 , 2002tii
Of course we have all grown a bit too- so cars have swelled in unison. FocusMk 1 looks dainty alongside new version.
Not sure any cars in the 'performance league' currently on sale meet your requirements.
Weight through safety,electrical kit etc all add - my sons e92 M3 had something like 8 speakers!
The GT 86 must be closest
Being a bit older I recall Lancia Fulvia, Alfa GTV 1750 , 2002tii
Of course we have all grown a bit too- so cars have swelled in unison. FocusMk 1 looks dainty alongside new version.
Captain Muppet said:
V8RX7 said:
Plus what new car matches my RX7 - 420bhp and 1350kg or my MX5 210bhp and 1050kg - not just in power to weight but FUN ?
Have you driven the new 220bhp Elise SC?My Elise is more fun more of the time than my MX5 turbo.
I'm with you on the RX7 though, another RX7 is the first thing I'm going to buy when I have a spare parking space.
I've had faster MX5 turbos (up to 270bhp) but they aren't anything like the fun of a good supercharged one.
TobesH said:
Agree too! My little Seven rides so much better than my B7 Audi! As for steering feel and communicative feedback... Audi... pah!
Likewise. Nice big tyre walls and compliant suspension all working in sync with the car. It totally out rode and out handled my Cayman. Now one of these is a hard core sports car and the other is a road going GT... Something not right there!To be honest, what Chris is banging on about is what I've been banging on about for ages also. It's also why Lotus would have the drivers market to themselves if they could only make their cars reliable. They're really the only ones left that make cars that ride and drive properly (I do need to have a go in a G40R at some point to be fair). I have to admit I'm not as happy about the whole traction control thing that's creeping in mind you. Seems moot anyhow given the current situation
juansolo said:
It's also why Lotus would have the drivers market to themselves if they could only make their cars reliable.
I don't think reliability is the issue at all. I think it's the fact that people actually want plush interiors and exec saloon refinement and flappy paddle gearboxes.marksmith59 said:
Well said Chris
Not sure any cars in the 'performance league' currently on sale meet your requirements.
Weight through safety,electrical kit etc all add - my sons e92 M3 had something like 8 speakers!
The GT 86 must be closest
Being a bit older I recall Lancia Fulvia, Alfa GTV 1750 , 2002tii
Of course we have all grown a bit too- so cars have swelled in unison. FocusMk 1 looks dainty alongside new version.
Remove those 8 speakers and the M3 practically floats away.Not sure any cars in the 'performance league' currently on sale meet your requirements.
Weight through safety,electrical kit etc all add - my sons e92 M3 had something like 8 speakers!
The GT 86 must be closest
Being a bit older I recall Lancia Fulvia, Alfa GTV 1750 , 2002tii
Of course we have all grown a bit too- so cars have swelled in unison. FocusMk 1 looks dainty alongside new version.
otolith said:
juansolo said:
It's also why Lotus would have the drivers market to themselves if they could only make their cars reliable.
I don't think reliability is the issue at all. I think it's the fact that people actually want plush interiors and exec saloon refinement and flappy paddle gearboxes.
king thing not to break every time I drove it. In terms of raw driving pleasure it pisses all over just about everything out there from a great height. I'd have bought an Evora had it not been for the piss poor reliability I had with the Elise.Which is the thing. There is currently NOTHING out there I want to buy. Porsche keep ringing me to chop my Cayman in for a 991 or a new Boxster and I simply don't want either. I've not got the slightest interest in them. I've told them I'll have a go when the new Cayman comes out, but I can't see it offering me anything I'd want in all honesty. I'm not sure that any other manufacturers fair any better. Obviously somebody is buying this stuff. But it's not me.
All the things I end up looking at these days are old. I've been trying to get my brother to sell me his S1 Elise for the last 12 years or so, seeing as it's one that appears to have been built right. I also keep flirting with the idea of an old 911 if they weren't such daft money these days.
Edited by juansolo on Thursday 15th November 19:10
Many people have lost the joy of driving, they take more pleasure in the technological, material/status qualities of a car. Car companies are delivering what the customers are asking for. Big wheels, bluetooth, internet connectivity, doors that "thud" cleanly, soft touch dash materials, etc.,etc.
Blame yourselves or the society that we live in.
Personally, I like driving, cars are just a tool.
Blame yourselves or the society that we live in.
Personally, I like driving, cars are just a tool.
Economy, rust-proofing, passive safety, diesels - all hugely improved thanks to modern technology. However: suspension, handling, steering feel, feedback - all ruined by modern technology / fashion. The rot had set in by the late 90s. In the 80s, our 1982 vintage family VW Santana was ragged unmercifully on our local rally roads. In all that airborne and fishtailing high jinks, we never once "bottomed out" the suspension. In the late 90s, I hired a C class MB on a holiday, and nipped down the same back roads that our old VW had coped with so admirably a decade before. Shockingly, the newer and more expensive Merc wasn't up to the job - above a certain speed, its underside connected with every bump in sight. Sure, you might say there was no need to progress at that speed, but the point was a far older car of similar size from the early 80s could do it; 15 years of design "progress" later and the Merc couldn’t. We now have a 3.0 TDI Quattro that the previous owner had, for reasons best known to himself, specced out with 19" rims and the horrible "s-line" suspension. Well, if the Merc was bad, the even newer A6, with another decade's worth of "design improvements" under its belt, is even worse down those old roads; almost to the point where it’s un-driveable. Unless you're on a motorway, the suspension is comically inept. I had the pleasure of driving an old 10V quattro on 15" rims down the same roads recently, and the contrast between it and the A6 was almost shocking - how come that a company like VAG that had suspension travel nailed in the 80s has seemingly forgotten everything they ever knew? Chris Harris is to be commended for highlighting this issue.
It's not like most old cars were even any good to drive, yes you felt 'connected' to the road and the experience, but you feel that in a 'modern' land rover defender. Most mainstream cars handled like st.
Like I said a few pages ago, there are plenty of cars still out there to buy new that are built for the driving experience and are on par with anything of years gone to actually drive. All the moaning is just exposing how insecure people are about what they want to appear to be deriding.
t.Like I said a few pages ago, there are plenty of cars still out there to buy new that are built for the driving experience and are on par with anything of years gone to actually drive. All the moaning is just exposing how insecure people are about what they want to appear to be deriding.
I was thinking about this the other day. My car rides like st - it's appalling, I put up with it because I like the rest of the car.
It has to be about safety. Cars have to be bigger and heavier to be safer and remain affordable. They also "have" to be a bit faster and a bit grippier than the model they replace, or customers aren't impressed and cars don't sell. The only cheap way to control that extra mass at potentially greater speeds seems to end up being ste hard suspension. The problem is amplified when a so-called game-changer (GTR, ep3 civic type r (sort of!), or any bmw diesel from the last decade) appears, and every other manufacturer thinks they have to be faster, immediately.
t - it's appalling, I put up with it because I like the rest of the car.It has to be about safety. Cars have to be bigger and heavier to be safer and remain affordable. They also "have" to be a bit faster and a bit grippier than the model they replace, or customers aren't impressed and cars don't sell. The only cheap way to control that extra mass at potentially greater speeds seems to end up being s
te hard suspension. The problem is amplified when a so-called game-changer (GTR, ep3 civic type r (sort of!), or any bmw diesel from the last decade) appears, and every other manufacturer thinks they have to be faster, immediately. Andy ap said:
You have got to be kidding marketing guru's dont know a thing except how to manipulate people, the only skill in marketing is telling someone they want something which they dont need! Dont you ever wonder why there's a constant saturation of new technology coming out from different manufacturers. To avoid going off topic you see it everyday life there is now too much reliance on technolgy and not enough engineering skill. If car manufacturers invested as much time in engineering as they did in making fancy climate control, sat navs, automatically opening doors and boots (i mean seriously, thank you America) and in car entertainment the automotive world would be a much better place.
I'm sorry, but that has to be wrong on lots of levels. I think there are plenty of marketers who wish they could manipulate people, but that isn't their job, training or skill. Telling people they want something they don't need is easy, getting them to buy it takes persuasion, manipulation or a straight con. Marketing is not about any of those things - sorry, as a marketer I do get sensitive about this!Who do you think it is that develops fancy climate control, sat naves, automatic doors and boots or in car entertainment? They all take engineers to develop them. Marketers are very clever at what they do, but never try to pretend that they are engineers (unless also qualified as such).
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