RE: PH Blog: the new driving

[hillchilly]

Sat writing this in a bar at Philadelphia airport makes me think Europe is on a march to the same one flavour mediocrity that blights the American car market - I have owned a few nice cars over the years and it was an E39 M5 that actually made me realise I wasn't having as much fun driving as I used to in smaller, lighter less powerful cars.

A Pistonheads hero the E39 is a fantastic machine but the cooper s mini that replaced it is more fun to drive every day in the uk in that you have to "drive" it to get the best from it and the limit is accessible without risking jail or a ballistic accident if something mechanical or the driver failed.

I am fortunate that if I wanted I could drive a nice nearly new Porsche, Aston etc but I now have and love a k series mg midget and a jcw mini - the midget is Caterham fast and takes nerve and a bit of skill to get the best from it and the jcw always leaves me with a smile on my face after every drive.

I agree with you Mr Harris less is definitely more.

[MC Bodge]

I agree with most of Mr Harris' article.

A similar article (and many other good ones) is here

Vehicles have gone beyond what is necessary and useful. Manufacturers are now trying to sell a dream/image, not a personal transportation device.

Few people are interested in driving or machinery.

bertie said:

So lets say you were after a really good riding, smooth, quiet, comfortable, refined, new car for the family, moderate budget of say £40k, what would you go for???

Well, some modern cars are very good at doing-it-all reasonably well, but the options and 'sporty' features don't necessarily do what they might suggest.

In my case, I chose:

Bottom spec interior (albeit with many gizmos, including the un-used "voice control")

Mid-powered engine (even so, can manage a drag-start 0-60 in under 10s, accelerate decently at motorway speeds and achieve a cruise of upto 130mph in parts of one European country that relatively few UK people visit)

Standard suspension and 'smallest' wheels (16" and 215/55 tyres)

They are not fashionable at all -which I like.

... I spent nowhere near £40k.

Mk4 Mondeo -Great for most things

but...

It is too wide
The outward visibility is poor
Although the ride/handling/response/poise/feel compromises are extremely good for a big car (-genuine progress, far better than a smaller Sierra/Cavalier), the weight/bulk do make themselves known, especially if you are driving it hard -although the fact is that few people will seek out opportunities to use their car(even sports cars) in the way I'm describing.

Sports suspension and 18" wheels would tip the car too far from road to BTCC.

The older model might have been the peak.

Edited by MC Bodge on Friday 16th November 10:14

[Dave Hedgehog]

found a vid of the perfect example of a what i want from a car, the complete opposite of harris, I am not a racing driver, i don't care about the last mm of adjustable balance using the throttle, i want a car that makes me grin, grin like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG8GDQpvIQI


which is also why i have no interest in the GT86

[Numeric]

We love our little Mini JCW - in many ways it's worse then a lot of other cars I've driven, but it makes me giggle and that really is all I care about. We arn't allowed to go quickly much anymore, so something that wakes you up at middling speeds is what you need.

[900T-R]

Hmmmm - that's something my new Cooper S (by the sounds of most reviews, the 'better' car) isn't very good at. At moderate speeds, it may be a lot more interesting than the rest of the company car dross out there - but against my TVR it's so boring and anodyne. I really had hoped that progressing from Cooper to Cooper S would have brought a bit more genuine feel (and then I have intently chosen the smallest wheel/tyre combo available!) and drivetrain character (it's got a huge twin exhaust, but no aural signature to speak of)...

Maybe I should have gone for the flawed but more characterful JCW after all...

[Martin 480 Turbo]

What gen. 3 series are you talking about?
F30 I'd think?

[Andy ap]

andyps said:

Who do you think it is that develops fancy climate control, sat naves, automatic doors and boots or in car entertainment? They all take engineers to develop them. Marketers are very clever at what they do, but never try to pretend that they are engineers (unless also qualified as such).

I appreciate your view, as i studied some marketing while at uni and yes you are of course right about engineers creating those gimmicks, what i'm getting at is that companies wouldn't be wasting valuable r&d resources on these pointless things if the companies understood what the actual consumer wanted. Manufacturers as a whole dont appear that bothered by consumers as long as they have customers, in my eyes marketing is all about blurring that line. Supermarkets and department stores are one big case study in marketing and the current obsession with peer pressure adverts are doing my head in! Although in your defence advertising a car must be very difficult, reviews can seem to make or break a car so i'm not sure how i'd do that.

Anyone remember the old Montego advert with russ swift?

[motor mad]

Interesting article. I got home a bit earlier than expected yesterday and seeing as the weather was half decent, decided I'd go for a drive. A quick second and third gear blast off a roundabout, timing the gear changes to keep the car singing towards the red line sums up everything I love about my 14 year old Honda. Modern cars are effortlessly quick and buyers are spoilt with every conceivable creature comfort imaginable.

I'm sure it's just a nostalgia for cars I used to lust after. When I spotted a yellow Integrale and an Escort Cosworth on the road, there are very few (if any) modern cars that connect with me like.

For those moments of enjoyment I get when the weather is good, the roads are clear and I reverse my "fun car" out the garage, that is why I class myself as a petrol head.

[MC Bodge]

Andy ap said:

Manufacturers as a whole dont appear that bothered by consumers as long as they have customers

Car companies build cars(widgets) in order to sell them with the intention of making money.

The cars/widgets must be "desirable" to the consumer (or fulfill a perceived need) so if company A sells a car with 18" wheels this year, company B will sell a car with 19" wheels next year, (even if the car in question is supposed to be a family car or a pseudo-off-roader) etc.

The reality of whether or not the driving experience, real-world performance, comfort or utility is improved becomes almost irrelevant. The A-to-B performance on a smooth racetrack is fairly academic.

[andyps]

Andy ap said:

andyps said:

Who do you think it is that develops fancy climate control, sat naves, automatic doors and boots or in car entertainment? They all take engineers to develop them. Marketers are very clever at what they do, but never try to pretend that they are engineers (unless also qualified as such).

I appreciate your view, as i studied some marketing while at uni and yes you are of course right about engineers creating those gimmicks, what i'm getting at is that companies wouldn't be wasting valuable r&d resources on these pointless things if the companies understood what the actual consumer wanted. Manufacturers as a whole dont appear that bothered by consumers as long as they have customers, in my eyes marketing is all about blurring that line. Supermarkets and department stores are one big case study in marketing and the current obsession with peer pressure adverts are doing my head in! Although in your defence advertising a car must be very difficult, reviews can seem to make or break a car so i'm not sure how i'd do that.

Anyone remember the old Montego advert with russ swift?

I suppose my point is that the car companies actually do know what people want in their cars. There are few who don't appreciate the benefits of climate control, aftermarket sat nav units are in many cars of very low value (I have sometimes pondered on whether the sat nav unit is worth more than the car in some instances) so these are obviously appreciated. Automatic doors I'm not sure about, although some must like them (but not enough to sell lots of Peugeot 1007s). And the author of the blog we are discussing, Chris Harris, criticised his previous Jaguar XF for poor capability to link to an iPhone so even those who like "driving" like ICE. These comments apply to daily drivers rather than Caterhams etc. but they don't change my view that marketers in car manufacturers understand what people want in their cars and work with engineers to provide them.

And yes, the Montego ad was great and I had a Montego!

[jimmer69]

You guys are all talk.

I've felt this for a long time, 'treated' myself to a BMW 320si last year after running the likes of old BMs, fiestas and a couple of ford pumas. Fantastic car all round but I've found that unless you're pushing on at some big speeds it's not that much fun.

To counter all this I've replaced it with a 20 y/o mx5, a mental decision to most people but to me it just feels right!

Join the revolution folks

[MC Bodge]

jimmer69 said:

To counter all this I've replaced it with a 20 y/o mx5, a mental decision to most people but to me it just feels right!

Join the revolution folks

You shouldn't have to buy a 20 year old car though.

[Agent Orange]

jimmer69 said:

You guys are all talk.

I've felt this for a long time, 'treated' myself to a BMW 320si last year after running the likes of old BMs, fiestas and a couple of ford pumas. Fantastic car all round but I've found that unless you're pushing on at some big speeds it's not that much fun.

To counter all this I've replaced it with a 20 y/o mx5, a mental decision to most people but to me it just feels right!

Join the revolution folks

And so this thread reaches it's conclusion.

[V8RX7]

jimmer69 said:

You guys are all talk.

I've felt this for a long time, 'treated' myself to a BMW 320si last year after running the likes of old BMs, fiestas and a couple of ford pumas. Fantastic car all round but I've found that unless you're pushing on at some big speeds it's not that much fun.

To counter all this I've replaced it with a 20 y/o mx5, a mental decision to most people but to me it just feels right!

Join the revolution folks

No you are just a bit slow.

I "downgraded" from Cosworths / Integrales etc 15yrs ago to a Mk1 MX5 (admittedly I then supercharged it) I still have it and despite regularly buying other cars as well, I don't see myself ever selling it.

[Pip1968]

TobesH said:

I think the majority of people just don't care. A car is a means to get from A to B and ship the kids about. That's why our roads are clogged by cars like these, generally driven by people who think the national speed limit is 48mph, place their sat-nav devices directly in their line of vision and have no idea what the rear view mirror is for...

TobesH, I had to laugh at this and I totally agree. A crack bigger than a 1 pence piece is a MoT fail but you can put something as big as the mother in law's head and brighter than a 1,000,000 Watt belisha beacon on your screen and pootle along in the outside lane until the car sat on your bumper reading the sticker that says "This car is being driven by someone who passed their test but hasn't a clue about the art of driving" gives up and undertakes.

Pip

[Kolbenkopp]

Another great piece, thank you Chris.

"Maybe, but perhaps more worryingly it might be a lack of car companies who actually listen to their staff who ARE car nuts - being such a person does seem to have become a cultural and professional stumbling-block in a modern car manufacturer."

I'm afraid that must be it. Sad but I think it is the best explenation. People actually confuse Heineken with beer nowadays, not so surprising they also believe an S-Line whatever is "sporty". Just need to throw enough marketing $$ at the problem.

[Pistonwot]

All manufacturers care about are options lists because that is how they empty your wallet.
New cars have tt nav instead of balance,
air con instead of feel,
useless info-tainment in place of dynamics.
Marketing filth use these trinkets to distract the mug-ee from the fact that the eurobox theyre remortgaging the family house for is in reality a shed barely worth a thrupenny bit.
Thats why these type of buyers love their pub-bore fact sheets, IF they took a passenger in the actual vehicle they would be mocked and ridiculed for getting mugged for such a POS.
It may have been an expensive shed but it is still a shed.

[Rushmore]

Thanks.

On many exotic car forums you see people asking questions like "I want to buy a Camargue, how easy is it to retrofit an Ipod connection".

Rawwr said:

owners basically looking for the most expensive four-wheeled iPhone charger they can find.

[ArnageWRC]

MC Bodge said:

jimmer69 said:

To counter all this I've replaced it with a 20 y/o mx5, a mental decision to most people but to me it just feels right!

Join the revolution folks

You shouldn't have to buy a 20 year old car though.

Quite agree. I was thinking, considering how many different cars there are, there isn't actually that much choice. I'd love a modern version of the MGB-GT.....

[Rushmore]

What I love most is this:

"The "new" Porsche 911 "S"!!

Now with extra 25 BHP (as if anyone would need this incremental little extra power), 10mm wider tires/1" bigger diameter (why didnt you put them on in the first place), "improved" brakes and suspension (why didnt you get it right in the first place) and slightly bigger exhaust ends (why didnt you...). "

If they are really pushing the boat, then:

"The "new" "limited edition" Porsche 911 "GT-S" (or "S4 GT", or "4S Grand Sport" or "GT4S" or...)

See above, plus "special steering wheel" with, wait, "smaller diameter", and "alloy pedals which are drilled" to "save weight".

Repeat after "new" 911 has been introduced.