RE: PH Blog: race cars for the road
Discussion
Mine's at Malton for sale as well - a little more modestly priced than the 962...
As a road car, it's very much a dog walking on its hind legs: appallingly noisy, oversprung, overdamped, squeaky-braked, and sharp-clutched. As a track car it's fantastic; making it road legal was just a way to get it to the track less expensively. You can't - in my opinion - have it both ways; an acceptable road car will always be too soft, too heavy and too slow on the track, and a race car will always make even the shortest road journey an exercise in forbearance. That said, with noise-cancelling headphones the Cup car's suprisingly bearable on the motorway.
As a road car, it's very much a dog walking on its hind legs: appallingly noisy, oversprung, overdamped, squeaky-braked, and sharp-clutched. As a track car it's fantastic; making it road legal was just a way to get it to the track less expensively. You can't - in my opinion - have it both ways; an acceptable road car will always be too soft, too heavy and too slow on the track, and a race car will always make even the shortest road journey an exercise in forbearance. That said, with noise-cancelling headphones the Cup car's suprisingly bearable on the motorway.
I agree with most: street cars are almost always compromised for the track, and vice versa.
But, you buy the number plated race cars for very special reasons (bragging rights, childhood memories, collectivity, exclusivity etc.) and I respect the guys who own and run them.
I would loved one, no matter how horrible it was on the streets. Just one occasional blast around my streets would make me genuinely happy. Hell, even just staring at one in my garage spot would make any lousy day a lot better.
There is a distinction though: what I don't want is a stripped out, track converted street car which I have to drive 2 h each way to the track every time - that would wear me out too fast...
But, you buy the number plated race cars for very special reasons (bragging rights, childhood memories, collectivity, exclusivity etc.) and I respect the guys who own and run them.
I would loved one, no matter how horrible it was on the streets. Just one occasional blast around my streets would make me genuinely happy. Hell, even just staring at one in my garage spot would make any lousy day a lot better.
There is a distinction though: what I don't want is a stripped out, track converted street car which I have to drive 2 h each way to the track every time - that would wear me out too fast...
I wondered how long it would be before Ultimas were mentioned on this topic, given they were modelled on the 962 initially (look at the windscreen and side windows). Having driven mine (Ultima, not 962) for 12 years on the road the impracticallity is wearing as is the fact that you are always centre of attention when you just want to enjoy it. And that is the other issue, few of our overcrowded roads allow even a brief blast. Although it is rarely used now, just to see it in the garage and to know you own something a bit special has to be worth it, as long as you have something practical and fun as well.
Its funny, why moan about this? If you want execu-barges, GO AND BUY ONE, leave the sports stuff to the men.
Amusingly the main negative arguments consist of whinging about hard set ups, bemoaning no air con (we live in a country where we are lucky to even see the sun for a year???) and crying like a woman about luggage space for shopping?
Tip: you are looking for Car Magazine.
Only an idiot would buy a race car if what made a car fantastic for them was bootspace and marketing rubbish,
wooooo, sat nav, hold me back.
How sad it is to see this on PH, worse that it is PH staff fuelling the flames.
Amusingly the main negative arguments consist of whinging about hard set ups, bemoaning no air con (we live in a country where we are lucky to even see the sun for a year???) and crying like a woman about luggage space for shopping?
Tip: you are looking for Car Magazine.
Only an idiot would buy a race car if what made a car fantastic for them was bootspace and marketing rubbish,
wooooo, sat nav, hold me back.
How sad it is to see this on PH, worse that it is PH staff fuelling the flames.
Pistonwot said:
Its funny, why moan about this? If you want execu-barges, GO AND BUY ONE, leave the sports stuff to the men.
Amusingly the main negative arguments consist of whinging about hard set ups, bemoaning no air con (we live in a country where we are lucky to even see the sun for a year???) and crying like a woman about luggage space for shopping?
Tip: you are looking for Car Magazine.
Only an idiot would buy a race car if what made a car fantastic for them was bootspace and marketing rubbish,
wooooo, sat nav, hold me back.
How sad it is to see this on PH, worse that it is PH staff fuelling the flames.
Looks at Pistonwot's profile, sees no cars. Amusingly the main negative arguments consist of whinging about hard set ups, bemoaning no air con (we live in a country where we are lucky to even see the sun for a year???) and crying like a woman about luggage space for shopping?
Tip: you are looking for Car Magazine.
Only an idiot would buy a race car if what made a car fantastic for them was bootspace and marketing rubbish,
wooooo, sat nav, hold me back.
How sad it is to see this on PH, worse that it is PH staff fuelling the flames.
Some Gump said:
Pistonwat, I suspect you've never tried a race car on the road. They're set for very smooth surfaces, on a bumpy road, a race set car will. E slower than a road set car of similar power to weight.
Your point is valid for rally cars, but not for a 962 running 1.5" ride height.
Yes a few, but I fully accepted what they ARE before I get in them. I really dont care about what they are not as thats just whining for the sake of it.Your point is valid for rally cars, but not for a 962 running 1.5" ride height.
WHY go and buy a race car as a daily if a bit of NVH ruins your day? thats just stupid! Buy a car suited to YOU and your needs!
This is fundamental to enjoying the thing surely?
Also, why cant you re-adjust the ADJUSTABLE race set up cope when driving it on the roads instead of driving about with a rediculous 1.5.
Its no wonder you dont enjoy the car going around like that!
IF soft, plush and chock full-o-tat is what you feel you NEED and desire in a car then buy something suitable, no?
If your not yet too institutionalised to still long for dynamics, feel and driver involvement at the cost of comfort and dont mind slight compromises, then indeed, why the hell not old bean?
We are not all so fragile we cant drive a car requiring us to put up with slight discomfort in pursuit of the enjoyment it brings.
Pistonwot said:
Yes a few, but I fully accepted what they ARE before I get in them. I really dont care about what they are not as thats just whining for the sake of it.
WHY go and buy a race car as a daily if a bit of NVH ruins your day? thats just stupid! Buy a car suited to YOU and your needs!
This is fundamental to enjoying the thing surely?
Also, why cant you re-adjust the ADJUSTABLE race set up cope when driving it on the roads instead of driving about with a rediculous 1.5.
Its no wonder you dont enjoy the car going around like that!
IF soft, plush and chock full-o-tat is what you feel you NEED and desire in a car then buy something suitable, no?
If your not yet too institutionalised to still long for dynamics, feel and driver involvement at the cost of comfort and dont mind slight compromises, then indeed, why the hell not old bean?
We are not all so fragile we cant drive a car requiring us to put up with slight discomfort in pursuit of the enjoyment it brings.
I'm not convinced that fettling the ride height on a 956 will make the lack of a differential enjoyable at any given junction or in wet weather where it will give you awful understeer unless you are powersliding it around the village.WHY go and buy a race car as a daily if a bit of NVH ruins your day? thats just stupid! Buy a car suited to YOU and your needs!
This is fundamental to enjoying the thing surely?
Also, why cant you re-adjust the ADJUSTABLE race set up cope when driving it on the roads instead of driving about with a rediculous 1.5.
Its no wonder you dont enjoy the car going around like that!
IF soft, plush and chock full-o-tat is what you feel you NEED and desire in a car then buy something suitable, no?
If your not yet too institutionalised to still long for dynamics, feel and driver involvement at the cost of comfort and dont mind slight compromises, then indeed, why the hell not old bean?
We are not all so fragile we cant drive a car requiring us to put up with slight discomfort in pursuit of the enjoyment it brings.
A race car is optimised for track conditions. It would make no more sense for a b-road blast than a Renault Scenic, because it's compromised. They aren't built to be fun, they are built to win. Driver pleasure is low on the priority list. That's what the thread is about. If you find a thrill in that, good for you, but others saying why it doesn't work for them isn't moaning. Your argument seems to suggest that this is a whole bunch of people who went out and bought race cars and then complained that they don't have satnav and have too much NVH, like it was a surprise or something. I see none of that, personally.
I'm glad this came up, because I have recently done a lot of work to my car to make it more reliable, and faster, and was feeling a bit odd about the whole effort put in being worth it.
As a 7 clone owner/builder, with about 200 BHP to use, it sounds like it makes no sense, but in reality, the attention is a pain in the duff, you can't use all your power without going in the ditch, and the bumpy roads make it very very hard on the back. You can be as tough as you want, and it is still, as said earlier, a ride on a motorbike in the rain. I love my Audi even more now, actually, and I still can't wait for the autocross season to restart in the spring!
As a 7 clone owner/builder, with about 200 BHP to use, it sounds like it makes no sense, but in reality, the attention is a pain in the duff, you can't use all your power without going in the ditch, and the bumpy roads make it very very hard on the back. You can be as tough as you want, and it is still, as said earlier, a ride on a motorbike in the rain. I love my Audi even more now, actually, and I still can't wait for the autocross season to restart in the spring!
PhillipM said:
Yeah, he's never been in a race car.
By the time you set it up for the road to stop it being an absolute ball ache to drive, it's no longer got half the parts and settings that made it a race car.
By the time you set it up for the road to stop it being an absolute ball ache to drive, it's no longer got half the parts and settings that made it a race car.
Even on its bottom limits, an adjustable race suspension setup designed for a slick shod circuit racer, will still be far too stiff for road use. It's not a matter of being squishy to comfort peoples posteriors, or a question of NVH, it's simply that UK roads and race setups do not work well together, and certainly not at road speeds.
The tarmac setup on the rally cars we build works brilliantly on closed roads at full chat pace, where the frequency of the suspension movement caused by the bumps and undulations is high. Running the same car between stages on the public roads is just a chore at the end of the day. Headsets are essential for communication, and the ride rides over bumps at normal speeds with the suspension tuned to a higher rate of speed.
Lets be honest though .... Driving the road stages in a rally always feels a bit naughty, and gets so many looks and waves from the public, that those sections can be a thrill themselves .... but not every day!
Alfanatic said:
I'm not convinced that fettling the ride height on a 956 will make the lack of a differential enjoyable at any given junction or in wet weather where it will give you awful understeer unless you are powersliding it around the village.
I've run two daily-drivers with no diff. Wet understeer only happens if you go too fast, oversteer only happens when you want it to. Wheel hop on tight turns gets annoying, but it's not unbareable.In terms of annoyance it's less annoying than having the passenger pick a radio station. And less annoying than race seats and harnesses.
And less annoying than having a paddle clutch.
VinZ said:
People want a smooth ride, luggage, 2+2 for the kids. A race car pummels all the bumps flat keeping the tires firmly on the road and given the occupants a bumpy ride as a result. The loud pedal has the same result: race car do not have a smooth throttle. It will give a slow and jerky getaway at the traffic light - if you don't stall it because the clutch is binary (on or off...no in between). If you get to the shop: where are you going to put your shopping bag? On the passenger seat that is, there is no other storage.
And last but not least: the petrol. More power means more petrol. Running 10 mpg isn't to everyone liking.
So you end up with this (Mosler MT 900 GTR - btw it's for sale):
The Mosler is actually quite a good road car and fairly practical. You can fit 8-10 shopping bags in the rear boot, it will hold enough luggage for a multi-day day trip, clutch is easy to use, and it does have air-conditioning.And last but not least: the petrol. More power means more petrol. Running 10 mpg isn't to everyone liking.
So you end up with this (Mosler MT 900 GTR - btw it's for sale):
PhillipM said:
Yeah, he's never been in a race car.
By the time you set it up for the road to stop it being an absolute ball ache to drive, it's no longer got half the parts and settings that made it a race car.
You know everything, I would love to know just 1 thing.By the time you set it up for the road to stop it being an absolute ball ache to drive, it's no longer got half the parts and settings that made it a race car.
How can you can fit what must be a really fat head into a race car in the first place, it must be a really big race car with an open top or a single seater maybe?
Not everyone is too old or so soft, your mistake is to assume that you are the ideal, the measure of others.
People DO drive race cars on the road so you are as a matter of fact talking utter nonsense. Several videos have been posted to show this is a fact and a point that is not up for debate!
Just because you cant cope with it does not mean others will view the experience as to harsh for their not so fragile bodies to cope with.
I mean no aircon, good God man, the world could end.
Pistonwot said:
You know everything, I would love to know just 1 thing.
How can you can fit what must be a really fat head into a race car in the first place, it must be a really big race car with an open top or a single seater maybe?
Not everyone is too old or so soft, your mistake is to assume that you are the ideal, the measure of others.
People DO drive race cars on the road so you are as a matter of fact talking utter nonsense. Several videos have been posted to show this is a fact and a point that is not up for debate!
Just because you cant cope with it does not mean others will view the experience as to harsh for their not so fragile bodies to cope with.
I mean no aircon, good God man, the world could end.
Yeah, okay, now get your head out of your arse and listen to what people who can, have and do drive them on the road are telling you. Yes, people drive them on the road, not sure why that's come into it, if you read the fHow can you can fit what must be a really fat head into a race car in the first place, it must be a really big race car with an open top or a single seater maybe?
Not everyone is too old or so soft, your mistake is to assume that you are the ideal, the measure of others.
People DO drive race cars on the road so you are as a matter of fact talking utter nonsense. Several videos have been posted to show this is a fact and a point that is not up for debate!
Just because you cant cope with it does not mean others will view the experience as to harsh for their not so fragile bodies to cope with.
I mean no aircon, good God man, the world could end.
king thread before opening you mouth and letting your last braincell do a runner, you'll see I'm one of them.FWIW, my daily has no PAS, ABS, Aircon, electic windows/mirrors/heated screens or any of that s
t and the whole suspension is mounted on metal to metal bearings, so how about not making assumptions about people you've never met?Edited by PhillipM on Thursday 22 November 22:57
I drive my E28 track car on the road whenever possible. It's obviously taxed, tested, etc, but the spec of the multi point weld-in cage, 6 point harnesses, suspension, brakes, poly carb windows, etc, etc basically make it a race car for the road. I soften the suspension a tad and raise it a little, too (rough country roads are not good for nil ground clearance!).
No A/C, no creature comforts, no sound deadening of any sort...I love it.
No A/C, no creature comforts, no sound deadening of any sort...I love it.
I'm guessing with that though, you don't have oil that needs changing every weekend, bodywork that flaps about in the wind, a gearbox that's a complete bh at anything other than full chat and a clutch and diff pack that makes the whole car jump and shudder in traffic and in bends unless all four wheels are slipping?
Apologies if I'm wrong, but even some of the most hardcore track cars aren't as much of a bh to drive as a race car, as they've been built to enjoy driving in, rather than absolute flat chat pace at a sacrifice of everything else. I'm sure you could do it with a few of the more road-going based series though.
h at anything other than full chat and a clutch and diff pack that makes the whole car jump and shudder in traffic and in bends unless all four wheels are slipping?Apologies if I'm wrong, but even some of the most hardcore track cars aren't as much of a b
h to drive as a race car, as they've been built to enjoy driving in, rather than absolute flat chat pace at a sacrifice of everything else. I'm sure you could do it with a few of the more road-going based series though.Couldn't agree more.
It was hardly a 962, but I sold my ex-race Caterham for a very similar reason. Once the springs and dampers were changed for road-spec units it was a joy to drive, but no weather gear, no security, next to no luggage space and a deafening 5,000rpm on the motorway made it pretty impractical for more than a Sunday afternoon blast.
The Chimaera feels like a truck in comparison, but it's a far better road car.
It was hardly a 962, but I sold my ex-race Caterham for a very similar reason. Once the springs and dampers were changed for road-spec units it was a joy to drive, but no weather gear, no security, next to no luggage space and a deafening 5,000rpm on the motorway made it pretty impractical for more than a Sunday afternoon blast.
The Chimaera feels like a truck in comparison, but it's a far better road car.
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