Re: Where Jag went wrong

[LewisR]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Quality retort !!

I'll add these:

[TA14]

Pr1964 said:

Other than a few bits of trim and a no bump on the boot look like the same designer Generic and LAZY design and a complete LACK of style . A complete JOKE !!!!

Apart from the bottom of door scoop effect and the brake cooling duct set up I like the Jag design better. OK it might have only taken Jag an afternoon to alter the Jap design but at least it gives Jag a nice car to sell and the newcomers can see what it's like when the boot's on the other foot.

[ohtari]

I had the pleasure of finding an unmasked one on a back street in Stafford yesterday, could barely believe my eyes. It was a test bed car bound for the USA, a full fat v8 s in white. I spent a few minutes giving the car a good look over and the guy came out, introduced himself as a test engineer and asked if I wanted to have a look inside. You don't turn that offer down! The interior is lovely, good soft leather and aluminium, with orange (anodized?) important bits such as the paddles and start button. The roof folds pretty quickly, sub 10s at a guess. And the noise, oh my god the noise! I was stood at the back when the guy's son mashed the throttle, I damn near shat myself!

It's smaller in person than the photos would suggest, current mx5 size. I managed to weed out the fact that it'll do "over" 175mph. Also the manual is coming in the 2016 model year, and a hard top next year... Not a folding hard top, a proper roof!

The 20" wheels look huge on such a small car, but the Pirelli rubber looks the business, and the brakes are massive properly filling the rims. The daytime running lights actually look really good, and the headlights look great, like quality camera lenses.

I have never, ever in my life regretted not having a camera as much as I did yesterday

I want one!

[vpr]

If the XJS had looked and driven like this then they would have had a chance against the big boys.

Drives so well, better that the V8 Vantage of the same year

[ZesPak]

Pr1964 said:

Maybe you need to go to specsavers.
Other than a few bits of trim and a no bump on the boot look like the same designer stE
Generic and LAZY design and a complete LACK of style . A complete JOKE !!!!

What does it share with an E-Type sweet F all .....

Edited by Pr1964 on Monday 19th November 17:07

I'd think you'd have a hard time finding someone else who finds the F-type a designers' "joke".
Both cars you show are red convertible two-seaters, and as much as I like the 350Z, it's like putting a 3-series next to a 159.

[Twincam16]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

And for Jaguar's historical contribution to corporate faces:

[300bhp/ton]

I want to see an F-Type in the flesh, piccies don't make it look good IMO. Huge down step in styling and elegance compared the original XK8, which was and still is a stunningly beautiful design.

But sadly in pictures and close up I've been hugely disappointed visually (inside and out) with the new XJ and XF, both far worse looking, far more bland and generic looking than the cars they replaced.

However looking more "Audi" and more generic seems to winning fans. But then again almost all BMW's, Audi's and Mercs are pretty much bland looking blobs. The 'good' looking interesting designs from these companies don't tend to sell well either.

[Triumph Man]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Indeed, however, one thing you could not accuse these cars of was being ugly. The corporate face is still with us, but nearly everything seems less elegant.

[Fat Fairy]

I never quite understand the hate for the XJ-S, and Jaguar post E-Type in general.

I don't think people remember that, at the end of its days, Jaguar nearly had to give E-Types away. There were E-Types in showrooms until nearly launch time for the XJ-S!

Also, heresy though it may be, the XJ-S has more race success than the E-Type, is slipperier than the E-Type and was more reliable than the E-Type. As another poster has insinuated, I have also owned XJ-S's for 20 years. Excluding my recent project (to get an XJ-S convertible back to showroom condition, I'll concede the rust!), the sum total of my XJ-S breakdowns are two oil coolers, a power steering hose, a battery and a rear hub carrier. In 20 years!

Again, as previously mentioned by another poster, Jaguar have usually had to produce a winning car for a good price. The original F-Type (when Ford took over) could not be produced on time, on weight and on budget with a competetive price (70k IIRC). This was therefore Aston territory. Guess what, suddenly an all new DB7 was available (cue oohs and aahs from the motoring press. Where was it built? Newport Pagnell? I think not! With an Aston v8, er, no, a straight 6 with an interesting history)

When all other manufacturers were collaborating, Jag also did via Ford. Sharing floor pan designs with Lincoln for the Lincoln S and the S Type. Cue stupid AutoExpress statement that Jaguar (the kings of IRS) had taken suspension lessons from Lincoln!!

Lets not forget of course that the X-Type is a Mondeo in drag

As regards the new F-Type, I want one now, and am willing to sell my wife to fund one. She is a very good cook

Edit: I don't want one now; I want one of every colour, RIGHT NOW!

[Fat Fairy]

OK. I'll admit to bias.

I'm picking this up next week!

[M0BZY]

Alfanatic said:

Ralph Nader?

Thats the Feller

[300bhp/ton]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

The X358 might have looked a bit bloated, but it still looked good. The XJ S1, 2, 3, 40, x300 and x308 are all beautiful cars that the current XJ looks like the Elephant man by comparison.

The S-Type was striking, such a design will never have mass appeal. But it wasn't boring. The rear pillar was always a tad awkward looking, but in the right colour with no chrome I think they look fantastic. The XF just looks like an accident between a Mondeo and an Audi.

[CraigyMc]

Pr1964 said:

rant
rant
rant

This is why PH needs a /ignore feature.

[Alfanatic]

CraigyMc said:

Pr1964 said:

rant
rant
rant

This is why PH needs a /ignore feature.

Unfortunately if it had one I'd only see about 4 people on the site.... all of whom would probably be ignoring me

[CraigyMc]

Alfanatic said:

CraigyMc said:

Pr1964 said:

rant
rant
rant

This is why PH needs a /ignore feature.

Unfortunately if it had one I'd only see about 4 people on the site.... all of whom would probably be ignoring me

Actual lol.

[DonkeyApple]

Pr1964 said:

Apologies for my ranting

I just get very frustrated that there are so few cars which look special, when companies "Jag Aston Martin Renault" who should be doing special and just do Bland I feel a rant is justified.

Beauty? It must be that many of us have been looking at blandmobiles for so long that we are either devoid of visual perception or we have just so little to compare exciting to that an air intake here and a crease there together with a slim headlight and it appears many go weak at the knees.

I maintain my view that the F-type is a very tame design with the wrong influences and a missed opportunity.

Risk taking today is like corporate politics keep it quiet …. Sushhhhhhhhh don’t tell them they’ve got it wrong or as you’ll be kicked out the door and that’s probably why we see Safe rather than Beautiful or Bonkers ……. All design by committee.

Design by committee would never have resulted in the E-type only Ferrari appear capable of New Beauty sure they make mistakes "ie 360 jelly mould" they often get it right and that results in visual pleasure.



IMO recent non Bland
Merc SLS “modern day interpretation it’s the direction Jaguar needed to go in”
Bmw Bangle M5 Z4 3 “marmite but of the moment and imo they now work”
RR Evoque "though 100% not my cuppa at least RR tried but ended up with a tonka car"
Ferrari 458 “genius”
Jag XJ “though it’s got a big mouth up front, from behind its kinda thunderbirds special”
Citroen DS3 “the only car in their lineup worthy of the citroen badge.”

All F1 cars look very similar and it is because of regulations. It is also the case that any changes in F1 tend to be incremental as all the massive, game changing advances have been made back in the 50s/60s etc.

This also pertains to road cars. Legislation that differs across continents must be adheared to in order to sell across continents and so this does restrict hugely the design options.

At the same time all the big 'shape' changes have really been made. All a manufacturer can do now is tweak these shapes in places and combine them differently to try and make something different.

Now, to agree with your view, there is certainly an element of corporate leverage preventing firms from taking avantguard risks with mainstream models but we do see them breaking out with 'specials' etc.

And amongst all this is the simple fact that the majority of humans like the idea of standing out from the crowd but in a generally mellow way. Think bespoke suit versus a Timmy Mallet outfit. Which is more popular?

The E-Type was a singular moment in history, a well proportioned shape not hampered by significant regulation and some first time uses of under the skin technology for road cars. But, by the end of its life regulation had ruined its lines, the market was bored of its lines and no new technology had been added of any significance.

Jaguar very sensibly realised in the early 70s that the section of the market (youngsters back then) that wanted 2 seater sports cars was very small and not very wealthy but that the demographic that wanted a sporty GT was much larger and much more wealthy. And this has remained very much the case until the Baby Boomer demographic who had missed out on the little 2 seater sports cars in their youth due to lack of funds found themselves with the time and money in the mid late 90s to suddenly spike demand for these types of cars and so the MX5, Boxster et all all suddenly took a significant share of the market.

Now look to 2012 and look at which group has the money to spend on big ticket car purchases and their age? It is fundamentally the same group of Baby Boomers but they are 10/15 years older and have had their dalliance with the sports car and with aching bones and an appetite for luxury they are back to spending their money in the GT sector.

The real problem with making a small 2 seater sportscar today is who is going to buy it in enough numbers to make it more viable to build than another type of car like a GT or SUV?

Who buys little 2 seaters? It's not the BRICs (one of the most crucial markets for the next 10 years), it's no longer the Americans, they bouyed the little 2 seater UK industry in the 50s and 60s with demands in the post war environment for something exciting but they now demand larger and more luxurious cars. So this essentially leaves Europe and the UK. The market in the UK is much more relevent than most of Europe but both markets are bust. The younger sections of both communities will not be throwing money at frivolous sports car purchases going forward as they have no money and little ability to earn such excess funds.

The simple fact is that in the current economic climate a car such as this will sell more than any more 'sports' orientated model.

[DonkeyApple]

Pr1964 said:

I agree with much of what you say but you've forgotten the current biggest market the Asian mkt.

That's a market which likes a badge but it likes crazy stying even more "a la 458" imagine if Ferrari had made a generic car like the F-type .......

It would have been

Jag Aston etc need to grow some balls and make some exciting looking cars not just the occasional specials.

The European Mkt is pretty much dead ...... a zombie mkt …
Chinese etc want Pagani 458 even the Veyron in an odd way is too tame for them.

If Jag Aston etc don't know that they deserve to go bust....

Companies like JLR will be extensively evaluating the BRIC markets, such is there vitalimportance for sales growth while the West is essentially dormant.

They will have tested what these markets want. Most wealthy BRIC individuals actually want to emulate the style of the West. It is why so many London, Paris, Milan brands have exploded in these markets. Somewhere like China has no 'wealth' cues from their living past and so the newly wealthy seek to define their style by looking to the West.

Sure, bling is important and you can see this in the way watch makers have made their watches more chunky in the last decade where slimness used to be the statement of style or added vast numbers of diamonds to appeal to this new taste but in automotive terms firms like Aston, Jag, Range Rover add bling while being very very careful not to damage style and image as these last two factors are very important.

I don't think that the key demographics in the BRIC states want extravagant styling as much as you think. Of course the brash youth may but they don't have any money, the older groups with wealth want what firms like JLR are giving them.

[fatboy b]

Pr1964 said:

Buyers want cutting edge design “a LA BMW

Cutting edge is not a phrase I'd use to describe the current BMW range. Drab, boring, samey, yes. But not cutting edge. I've said it once, I'll say it again. The last good looking design BMW produced was the E46, of which I had 3 in variuos guises as it looked so good.

Cars since then, and especially the new stuff, just doesn't pass the laugh test.

[mph]

A few points.

Jaguar couldn't make enough E-types because of factors beyond their control. Among others their body supplier had a finite output and the militant workforce were too often on strike.
In addition the government wouldn't let them increase capacity at their existing facilities and tried to force them into Scotland (I think it was). Jaguar finally took over Daimler in order to achieve additional production capacity.

To say they underpriced the car or they should have increased their production facility is not really taking into account the prevailing conditions at Jaguar (and in the British Motor Industry) in the 1960's.

It is doubtful whether anyone other than William Lyons could have acheived so much with such limited resources. Pre-war Jaguar (SS cars) relied on engines and running gear from other manufacturers.

Post-war they introduced one of the most revered engines of all time (The XK), the most sensational and fastest production sports car (Jaguar XK120) A range of 100mph saloons (Mk7,8,9), The most iconic saloon car ever (Mk2 Jaguar), An even more sensational sports car (Jaguar E-type), One of the most technically acclaimed saloon cars ever (The XJ6) and an engine that had Mercedes and BMW dumbfounded (The V12). For anyone to say they weren't trying hard enough does seem a little unkind. Oh - almost forgot they also designed one of the greatest sports racers of all time and won Le-Mans in it a few times.

The decline in Jaguar quality through the 1970's can be laid directly at BL's feet. They almost suceeded in destroying the Jaguar identity completely and the scale of mis-management was epic. Only through the dedication of some of the old-guard Jaguar management was the damage limited.

The XJS was never designed as an E-type replacement. The thinking in the motor industry at the time was that open-top sports cars would be legislated out of existence. Thank our American friends for that one.

Judging by the criticism, on this website, directed towards Jaguar for not introducing the F type with a manual option it will be interesting to see how many cars are ordered with a manual gearbox now it's been announced. Obviously all of the "manual manuels" that post here will be first in line so the F-type order books should be very healthy.

Edited by mph on Wednesday 21st November 19:44

[DonkeyApple]

Pr1964 said:

DonkeyApple said:

Companies like JLR will be extensively evaluating the BRIC markets, such is there vitalimportance for sales growth while the West is essentially dormant.

If they are at the evaluation process they've missed the boat because the Germans and the Italians have had their towels on the sun loungers for ages now.

Primary evaluations will be historic as the car is now here. But secondary evaluations would obviously be ongoing in any businesses looking to continue to sell and expand sales.

The Germans full stop have beaten the English to almost all the new markets. It isn't just an automative issue but one that impacts our entire exports element of the UK economy.

While the Brits were sitting in the UK believing the world would come to them or unable to fund speculative development of factories or find labour capable of pressing buttons the Germans wer building factories with speculative funding, hiring manual labour of sufficient education and flying all over the world opening markets.

There is also the issue that we do not actually respect, train or educate sales roles in the UK unlike almost any other developed nation when the sad reality is that without professional sales teams the best products in the world are not going to compete as they should against inferior competition, let alone equals.

The only UK industry which has out gunned the Germans at their own game has been banking and finance but luckily we are killing that off as swiftly as possible.