RE: Tell Me I'm Wrong: Porsche 911 Turbo
Discussion
monthefish said:
With all respect, you don't have enough experience to write such an article on these car(s).
By your own admission, your only experience of the 996 turbo was on the ring in someone elses P&J; You're hardly likely to get any real experience of the car in those circumstances, and you even say yourself that you were "woolly tip toeing around corners.". If you'd spent more time in the car you would have relised there was no need to do that. These car have great balance and are 95% RWD until you start to slip. They will still powerslide in the dry if you want it to. These aren't pure track cars - they are fast road cars - and therefore it would be foolish to judge these cars purely on track experince. That said, they can do track work very well indeed but that is not their 'home'.
Turbo lag is minimal, to the point it's almost imperceptable, and there's plenty of shove before the turbos come in anyway.
I think that the car's epic performance tends to overshadow the fact that it is also a wonderfully handling sports car, and people (usually those with no/limited experince) struggle to believe it can be both.
(snip)
As a 996TT owner for almost 4 years and now having covered approx. 25,000 miles (including several track days - 3x Francorchamps, 30 Nordschleife laps) I concur with Monthefish. Having also quite some experience with driving a 993TT and a 997TT (tiptronic), I find that the 996TT is the most fun because it is more sure-footed than the 993 but more playful than the 997. Obviously, searching for the limits of any of these TT's on the open road is in(s)ane and they are not the most capable track cars either (you really notice the weight and you have to be very disciplined on track to avoid massive understeer, i.e., "slow in, fast out"). By your own admission, your only experience of the 996 turbo was on the ring in someone elses P&J; You're hardly likely to get any real experience of the car in those circumstances, and you even say yourself that you were "woolly tip toeing around corners.". If you'd spent more time in the car you would have relised there was no need to do that. These car have great balance and are 95% RWD until you start to slip. They will still powerslide in the dry if you want it to. These aren't pure track cars - they are fast road cars - and therefore it would be foolish to judge these cars purely on track experince. That said, they can do track work very well indeed but that is not their 'home'.
Turbo lag is minimal, to the point it's almost imperceptable, and there's plenty of shove before the turbos come in anyway.
I think that the car's epic performance tends to overshadow the fact that it is also a wonderfully handling sports car, and people (usually those with no/limited experince) struggle to believe it can be both.
(snip)
Edited by monthefish on Friday 16th November 14:33
Actually, the most fun to be had from a 996TT is when it is gushing with rain and you find yourself attacking the bends [insert your favorite bendy road, e.g. deep in the Belgian Ardennes in my case] with gusto. The way the car grips and communicates on wet roads is simply pure joy. Especially if shod with the Michelins.
The only gripe worth mentioning is indeed the lack of noise. But a vendor like Europipes has the proper offering to address that issue.
So yes, dear Dan, you've got it wrong! So if you're up for it, I'll organize an autumnal Ardennes tour where you can properly sample the 996TT (I'm serious).
Personally, i've never actually seen the turbo as the "fun" one. Let me set you a scene:
You're a guy/gal who works in the city, done pretty well for yourself (but not quite well enough to have a helicopter ;-) you work late, your meeting finishes just after 9pm, and you need to be back home in the Cotswolds before last orders. Well, the Turbo is clearly the best car for the job. It trundles easily through the stop-start lights out from central London, and then it's pointed north on the M40 with the cruise set just out of 3 figures. Maybe an occasional squirt a bit higher when no ones around. 60mins later your feet are up on front of a roaring fire with a pint in your hand. No stress, just high speed mile munching, and you've even had a bit of fun on the last 15 cross country miles over some nicely deserted B roads, Come rain or shine it's Perfect!
You're a guy/gal who works in the city, done pretty well for yourself (but not quite well enough to have a helicopter ;-) you work late, your meeting finishes just after 9pm, and you need to be back home in the Cotswolds before last orders. Well, the Turbo is clearly the best car for the job. It trundles easily through the stop-start lights out from central London, and then it's pointed north on the M40 with the cruise set just out of 3 figures. Maybe an occasional squirt a bit higher when no ones around. 60mins later your feet are up on front of a roaring fire with a pint in your hand. No stress, just high speed mile munching, and you've even had a bit of fun on the last 15 cross country miles over some nicely deserted B roads, Come rain or shine it's Perfect!
Max_Torque said:
Personally, i've never actually seen the turbo as the "fun" one. Let me set you a scene:
You're a guy/gal who works in the city, done pretty well for yourself (but not quite well enough to have a helicopter ;-) you work late, your meeting finishes just after 9pm, and you need to be back home in the Cotswolds before last orders. Well, the Turbo is clearly the best car for the job. It trundles easily through the stop-start lights out from central London, and then it's pointed north on the M40 with the cruise set just out of 3 figures. Maybe an occasional squirt a bit higher when no ones around. 60mins later your feet are up on front of a roaring fire with a pint in your hand. No stress, just high speed mile munching, and you've even had a bit of fun on the last 15 cross country miles over some nicely deserted B roads, Come rain or shine it's Perfect!
Except hundreds of other cars (costing a fraction of the amount) can do that too.You're a guy/gal who works in the city, done pretty well for yourself (but not quite well enough to have a helicopter ;-) you work late, your meeting finishes just after 9pm, and you need to be back home in the Cotswolds before last orders. Well, the Turbo is clearly the best car for the job. It trundles easily through the stop-start lights out from central London, and then it's pointed north on the M40 with the cruise set just out of 3 figures. Maybe an occasional squirt a bit higher when no ones around. 60mins later your feet are up on front of a roaring fire with a pint in your hand. No stress, just high speed mile munching, and you've even had a bit of fun on the last 15 cross country miles over some nicely deserted B roads, Come rain or shine it's Perfect!
In the 70's these type of cars made sense - std cars were slow and the Police were sensible.
Now with cameras and speed kills BS combined with rep mobiles easily able to cruise at 130mph - I don't see the point - or are you spending 70k just to avoid the image of the Evo brigade ?
There is another side to the turbos talent that has not yet been explored here. You don't see many gt3s that can out accelerate Hyabusas in a straight line, but 4wd and an extremely well designed engine in terms of cooling (both oil and water) along with many other natural benefits lead to the turbo being naturally a very tunable car.
This Promotive example doesn't look or sound too dull either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em4d1RUUr_4&fea...
This Promotive example doesn't look or sound too dull either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em4d1RUUr_4&fea...
quote=monthefish]
Fortunately you get both with a 911 turbo.
Which generation did you own?
[/quote]
I was making a general point about speed and stimulation. Not owned any 911, but like some others on here I find some modern performance cars are too capable. I'm not in a position to get banned outright for a second time, which is where even my 3.8 M5 will go if you want to enjoy the best of 4th gear. But it does make an epic noise, and can spin its wheels in 3rd in the wet - no aids apart from your own attention. A 997.2 TT gets to 100 in slightly more than half the time of my BM, which I would find painfully frustrating once the thrill had abated. I once read an EVO test where a 996 driver inadvertently hit 135 mph on Welsh B roads because it was just so capable - admirable but I don't want a car that is going as fast as a 911 TT before it thrills you.
Re generations of 911 Turbo, I'd like a 933. I believe the 930 had a lighter engine and handled much better, but the 3.3 was of my time. Dream forced induction 911 would be a RUF Yellowbird - nothing has more sense of purpose - but NA 911 I really like those Singer creations from LA - obsessive details and very stimulating. Don't get me wrong the 997.2 TT was an astonishing achievement, but I really do not want one.
Fortunately you get both with a 911 turbo.
Which generation did you own?
[/quote]
I was making a general point about speed and stimulation. Not owned any 911, but like some others on here I find some modern performance cars are too capable. I'm not in a position to get banned outright for a second time, which is where even my 3.8 M5 will go if you want to enjoy the best of 4th gear. But it does make an epic noise, and can spin its wheels in 3rd in the wet - no aids apart from your own attention. A 997.2 TT gets to 100 in slightly more than half the time of my BM, which I would find painfully frustrating once the thrill had abated. I once read an EVO test where a 996 driver inadvertently hit 135 mph on Welsh B roads because it was just so capable - admirable but I don't want a car that is going as fast as a 911 TT before it thrills you.
Re generations of 911 Turbo, I'd like a 933. I believe the 930 had a lighter engine and handled much better, but the 3.3 was of my time. Dream forced induction 911 would be a RUF Yellowbird - nothing has more sense of purpose - but NA 911 I really like those Singer creations from LA - obsessive details and very stimulating. Don't get me wrong the 997.2 TT was an astonishing achievement, but I really do not want one.
Edited by Baddie on Monday 19th November 20:52
Max_Torque said:
Personally, i've never actually seen the turbo as the "fun" one. Let me set you a scene:
You're a guy/gal who works in the city, done pretty well for yourself (but not quite well enough to have a helicopter ;-) you work late, your meeting finishes just after 9pm, and you need to be back home in the Cotswolds before last orders. Well, the Turbo is clearly the best car for the job. It trundles easily through the stop-start lights out from central London, and then it's pointed north on the M40 with the cruise set just out of 3 figures. Maybe an occasional squirt a bit higher when no ones around. 60mins later your feet are up on front of a roaring fire with a pint in your hand. No stress, just high speed mile munching, and you've even had a bit of fun on the last 15 cross country miles over some nicely deserted B roads, Come rain or shine it's Perfect!
Nail on the head.You're a guy/gal who works in the city, done pretty well for yourself (but not quite well enough to have a helicopter ;-) you work late, your meeting finishes just after 9pm, and you need to be back home in the Cotswolds before last orders. Well, the Turbo is clearly the best car for the job. It trundles easily through the stop-start lights out from central London, and then it's pointed north on the M40 with the cruise set just out of 3 figures. Maybe an occasional squirt a bit higher when no ones around. 60mins later your feet are up on front of a roaring fire with a pint in your hand. No stress, just high speed mile munching, and you've even had a bit of fun on the last 15 cross country miles over some nicely deserted B roads, Come rain or shine it's Perfect!
Have owned a 996 Carrera and 997 GT3
Haven't been in a 997 turbo , but have been a passenger in a 996 Turbo. Wonderful power, so can only assume 997 is even better.
HOWEVER....... I'm sure to get a real buzz from the 997 TT you'll have to drive it hard. Had same with the GT3. Amazing cars but so capable , you'll lose your license in no time if you try to enjoy yourself on the public road. You need a track to experience these cars at their best.
Looking back had more "legal" fun in the 996. Less is more sometimes
Just my humble
Dave.
Haven't been in a 997 turbo , but have been a passenger in a 996 Turbo. Wonderful power, so can only assume 997 is even better.
HOWEVER....... I'm sure to get a real buzz from the 997 TT you'll have to drive it hard. Had same with the GT3. Amazing cars but so capable , you'll lose your license in no time if you try to enjoy yourself on the public road. You need a track to experience these cars at their best.
Looking back had more "legal" fun in the 996. Less is more sometimes
Just my humble
Dave.
I am with you on this one.
I have just sold my modified Audi S4 (V8) and replaced it with a E46 M3.
The problem with the S4 is that it was so competent and travelling at speed that for it to become exciting you needed to travel at silly speeds. Just a couple of weeks ago I somehow managed to get away being pulled at XXX mph and realised that the writing was on the wall, it was just a matter of time before a less reasonable boy in blue would catch me.
The M3 on the other hand is much more fun at lower speeds, particularly roundabouts (my tyre costs are going to go through the roof)
The S4 was the much more effective road car but the M3 is much more fun and satisfying to drive.
I have just sold my modified Audi S4 (V8) and replaced it with a E46 M3.
The problem with the S4 is that it was so competent and travelling at speed that for it to become exciting you needed to travel at silly speeds. Just a couple of weeks ago I somehow managed to get away being pulled at XXX mph and realised that the writing was on the wall, it was just a matter of time before a less reasonable boy in blue would catch me.
The M3 on the other hand is much more fun at lower speeds, particularly roundabouts (my tyre costs are going to go through the roof)
The S4 was the much more effective road car but the M3 is much more fun and satisfying to drive.
phast said:
I am with you on this one.
I have just sold my modified Audi S4 (V8) and replaced it with a E46 M3.
The problem with the S4 is that it was so competent and travelling at speed that for it to become exciting you needed to travel at silly speeds. Just a couple of weeks ago I somehow managed to get away being pulled at XXX mph and realised that the writing was on the wall, it was just a matter of time before a less reasonable boy in blue would catch me.
The M3 on the other hand is much more fun at lower speeds, particularly roundabouts (my tyre costs are going to go through the roof)
The S4 was the much more effective road car but the M3 is much more fun and satisfying to drive.
I have just sold my modified Audi S4 (V8) and replaced it with a E46 M3.
The problem with the S4 is that it was so competent and travelling at speed that for it to become exciting you needed to travel at silly speeds. Just a couple of weeks ago I somehow managed to get away being pulled at XXX mph and realised that the writing was on the wall, it was just a matter of time before a less reasonable boy in blue would catch me.
The M3 on the other hand is much more fun at lower speeds, particularly roundabouts (my tyre costs are going to go through the roof)
The S4 was the much more effective road car but the M3 is much more fun and satisfying to drive.
Another one....
So you've owned an S4 and an E46 M3, and you think that gives you the experience to form an opinion on a 911 turbo?
Genius.
monthefish said:
With all respect, you don't have enough experience to write such an article on these car(s).
By your own admission, your only experience of the 996 turbo was on the ring in someone elses P&J; You're hardly likely to get any real experience of the car in those circumstances, and you even say yourself that you were "woolly tip toeing around corners.". If you'd spent more time in the car you would have relised there was no need to do that. These car have great balance and are 95% RWD until you start to slip. They will still powerslide in the dry if you want it to. These aren't pure track cars - they are fast road cars - and therefore it would be foolish to judge these cars purely on track experince. That said, they can do track work very well indeed but that is not their 'home'.
Turbo lag is minimal, to the point it's almost imperceptable, and there's plenty of shove before the turbos come in anyway.
I think that the car's epic performance tends to overshadow the fact that it is also a wonderfully handling sports car, and people (usually those with no/limited experince) struggle to believe it can be both.
As has been said, I think the article is (specifically) written to provoke debate.
Summed up nicely don't think I need read anymore.By your own admission, your only experience of the 996 turbo was on the ring in someone elses P&J; You're hardly likely to get any real experience of the car in those circumstances, and you even say yourself that you were "woolly tip toeing around corners.". If you'd spent more time in the car you would have relised there was no need to do that. These car have great balance and are 95% RWD until you start to slip. They will still powerslide in the dry if you want it to. These aren't pure track cars - they are fast road cars - and therefore it would be foolish to judge these cars purely on track experince. That said, they can do track work very well indeed but that is not their 'home'.
Turbo lag is minimal, to the point it's almost imperceptable, and there's plenty of shove before the turbos come in anyway.
I think that the car's epic performance tends to overshadow the fact that it is also a wonderfully handling sports car, and people (usually those with no/limited experince) struggle to believe it can be both.
As has been said, I think the article is (specifically) written to provoke debate.
Edited by monthefish on Friday 16th November 14:33
Everyone who is lucky enough to try one of these cars says the same things, of the 996 turbo: ' brakes are s
t, abs triggers too much under braking, seats are too narrow'. 997 turbo: ' car feels to refined, engine sounds like a hair dryer'' . So it's not really opinion it is what it is. If you were to expect a hardcore fire breathing monster then you will be disappointed. The fact that these cars only get interesting over 120 mph leaves the driver left out, short bursts of acceleration can only entertain for so long. The unfair thing is that we criticise the car for something it isn't rather than what it is. A drive in a gt3 is not recommended for a turbo owner that's for sure, it brings into focus some of the cars lack of character. If speed is your thing, across a selection of roads, a 997 turbo might be Faster than a GTR, even a veyron , especially if bumpy, maybe only a McClaren 12c would be a whisker quicker.
t, abs triggers too much under braking, seats are too narrow'. 997 turbo: ' car feels to refined, engine sounds like a hair dryer'' . So it's not really opinion it is what it is. If you were to expect a hardcore fire breathing monster then you will be disappointed. The fact that these cars only get interesting over 120 mph leaves the driver left out, short bursts of acceleration can only entertain for so long. The unfair thing is that we criticise the car for something it isn't rather than what it is. A drive in a gt3 is not recommended for a turbo owner that's for sure, it brings into focus some of the cars lack of character. If speed is your thing, across a selection of roads, a 997 turbo might be Faster than a GTR, even a veyron , especially if bumpy, maybe only a McClaren 12c would be a whisker quicker. I have been lucky enough to own a 911 Turbo and I did not think...
The brakes were st
The ABS triggered too often or prematurely or the seats were too narrow (and I am no stranger to pies)
Indeed, most of the motoring people in the know use the Porsche Turbo as the benchmark for braking.
So I am a bit mythed by your remarks.
The brakes were s
tThe ABS triggered too often or prematurely or the seats were too narrow (and I am no stranger to pies)
Indeed, most of the motoring people in the know use the Porsche Turbo as the benchmark for braking.
So I am a bit mythed by your remarks.
nbetts said:
I have been lucky enough to own a 911 Turbo and I did not think...
The brakes were st
The ABS triggered too often or prematurely or the seats were too narrow (and I am no stranger to pies)
Indeed, most of the motoring people in the know use the Porsche Turbo as the benchmark for braking.
So I am a bit mythed by your remarks.
Please do not be mythed my friend. The disconnection between road testers gushing over porsche brakes and owners of 996 turbo's abject horror that the car does not stop with the same enthusiasm as it accelerates is well known. The porsche forum here will confirm this. It was the first thing I noticed; the brakes are under servoed. Also the abs seems to trigger a lot when braking on rough tarmac, I have my own theory that this is because of a lack of weight over the nose. For what my opinions worth, (probably not much), I don't believe a car with the 911's layout was ever meant to accelerate and brake to the levels it now does, but $$$ has engineered most of the problem away. Maybe at millbrook etc the surface is very smooth when they do brake tests?. Sorry I should have been more specific, the sports seats are very narrow for people with wide shoulders. The brakes were s
tThe ABS triggered too often or prematurely or the seats were too narrow (and I am no stranger to pies)
Indeed, most of the motoring people in the know use the Porsche Turbo as the benchmark for braking.
So I am a bit mythed by your remarks.
As I mentioned before its a case of what you use the car for, during the summer I used my GT3 RS for a tour of the Scottish highlands, decent weather and great fun.
Lets say I now want to visit in December which I do, the turbo will be excellent at getting me up there and I can drive it in a spirited fashion without any fear unless I am silly.
The boost is very addictive, stick a decent exhaust on it which I have and it sounds great too.
It's also a 'small' car compared to many of its counterparts which makes piloting it easier on back roads, London etc.
Come the summer I will get a GT3 RS again no question but if I had it now I would not be using it, or certainly tiptoeing around in it.
Is it soulless? No. It's clinical for sure but it does what it says on the tin. Like all of Porshe's cars do.
Lets say I now want to visit in December which I do, the turbo will be excellent at getting me up there and I can drive it in a spirited fashion without any fear unless I am silly.
The boost is very addictive, stick a decent exhaust on it which I have and it sounds great too.
It's also a 'small' car compared to many of its counterparts which makes piloting it easier on back roads, London etc.
Come the summer I will get a GT3 RS again no question but if I had it now I would not be using it, or certainly tiptoeing around in it.
Is it soulless? No. It's clinical for sure but it does what it says on the tin. Like all of Porshe's cars do.
911 turbo, esp tweeked are v quick, despite 480bhp still a lot of grip. Most fun to be had when grip is less, ie pissing with rain. Then they are outstanding and will leave most things.
The trouble is the faster a car is the harder it is to drive in a flowing manner.
Turbo was not designed as a track car, but a road car and if there were no speed limits it would be perfect!
Luckerly there are no speed cameras in my county!
The trouble is the faster a car is the harder it is to drive in a flowing manner.
Turbo was not designed as a track car, but a road car and if there were no speed limits it would be perfect!
Luckerly there are no speed cameras in my county!
markcoznottz said:
... the brakes are under servoed.....
Or perhaps most other 'normal' cars are over-servo'd, did you happen to think about that for a moment. Personally I think the Servo boost is just right and gives a really good feedback to the driver with regards to pressing the brake pedal in relation to the amount of retardation.Over Servo'd cars would be everything made by VW and almost every Mercedes. The dead give away is when people reeturn from a test drive and comment on how fabulous the brakes are when stopping in the car park of the dealer. When in reality they are just massively over-servo'd.
If you want under servo'd I suggest you drive a car without a servo...
I don't understand how those with 997 GT3s or just 2WD 911s in general can say that only the 4WD are suitable for winter.
With a good set of snow tyres, presumably a modern 2WD 911 would be just fine and as good or better than an AWD 911 in winter or wet weather
And yes I'm aware that in the UK snow tyres are not widely used but they are wondrous things and presumably those with 911s can afford an extra set of wheels with snow tyres
With a good set of snow tyres, presumably a modern 2WD 911 would be just fine and as good or better than an AWD 911 in winter or wet weather
And yes I'm aware that in the UK snow tyres are not widely used but they are wondrous things and presumably those with 911s can afford an extra set of wheels with snow tyres
Edited by BlackPrince on Wednesday 21st November 13:33
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