RE: Tell Me I'm Wrong: Porsche 911 Turbo
Discussion
Have owned quite a few 911 over the years. The last was a manual 997 turbo Cargraphic tuned 550bhp. Owned it for a year,very fast. Do I miss it no, unlike the Corvette ZO6 I owned. The Corvette had character the Porsche didn't. What the ingredients for character are I do not know some cars have it some don't some Porches have it some don't
I have to 
- at least twice above it has been commented that turbos are "too fast". Do Lewis and Jenson arrive at the track concerned that their company cars are "too fast"?! Cars are mechanical - actually Breaking News: they don't even move unless you do something (unless parked on a hill with the HB off). A car can't be too fast - a driver can 
. Joking aside, isn't it the driver's job to respect, harness and apply an engine's inherent ability to deliver rate of speed?
Back to the point. It seems to me that many don't get the 997T. And I'm one. I hated the entire concept until last year when I drove my first (properly) on a whim - damn, it's now in my garage! There's something about this car that I find hard to explain. You really need to jump in and out of a few fast cars within a few weeks to get it. I'm still learning.
I can see why someone posted about it being more of a GT car - although, IMHO, it really IS the best all-round sports car on the market. Maybe that's the reason we can't place this car in one "performance box" - Fritz has designed it to do it do everything well.
- at least twice above it has been commented that turbos are "too fast". Do Lewis and Jenson arrive at the track concerned that their company cars are "too fast"?! Cars are mechanical - actually Breaking News: they don't even move unless you do something (unless parked on a hill with the HB off). A car can't be too fast - a driver can . Joking aside, isn't it the driver's job to respect, harness and apply an engine's inherent ability to deliver rate of speed?Back to the point. It seems to me that many don't get the 997T. And I'm one. I hated the entire concept until last year when I drove my first (properly) on a whim - damn, it's now in my garage! There's something about this car that I find hard to explain. You really need to jump in and out of a few fast cars within a few weeks to get it. I'm still learning.
I can see why someone posted about it being more of a GT car - although, IMHO, it really IS the best all-round sports car on the market. Maybe that's the reason we can't place this car in one "performance box" - Fritz has designed it to do it do everything well.
As an ex owner of a 500hp ish 996 turbo (so probably a bit more honest than with current owner bias).
I would say that in its defense it really does come alive at 10/10ths it feels very much a 911. It took me 6 months of driving what I thought was very quickly, I'd had the odd tail wiggle out of bends under throttle, even been to the limiter in 6th.. but it wasn't until I really got the inertia of the weight into play on track that I came to appreciate the magic of a chassis.
I remember having a play with a gt3 at Silverstone and coming away thinking. In all honesty I don't think I'd have enjoyed it as much fun in the gt3. Wrestling with the weight on corner entry and then squerting out of the bends so hard it felt like the front wheels might come off the ground. I love the sharp, raw, directness of the gt3 but the power delivery of the turbo was so satisfying.
I felt it was really something to have something that capable on track and then drive the same car home in comfortable silence with the heated seats on.
However.. although as an only car prospect the turbo always wins my vote, the rs4 I had after it made me realise that the 911 turbo was always a bit of a compromise.
In an ideal world I'd have enjoyed the contrast of a big fast saloon for the road and a gt3 on track. The perfect solution in my eyes.
I would say that in its defense it really does come alive at 10/10ths it feels very much a 911. It took me 6 months of driving what I thought was very quickly, I'd had the odd tail wiggle out of bends under throttle, even been to the limiter in 6th.. but it wasn't until I really got the inertia of the weight into play on track that I came to appreciate the magic of a chassis.
I remember having a play with a gt3 at Silverstone and coming away thinking. In all honesty I don't think I'd have enjoyed it as much fun in the gt3. Wrestling with the weight on corner entry and then squerting out of the bends so hard it felt like the front wheels might come off the ground. I love the sharp, raw, directness of the gt3 but the power delivery of the turbo was so satisfying.
I felt it was really something to have something that capable on track and then drive the same car home in comfortable silence with the heated seats on.
However.. although as an only car prospect the turbo always wins my vote, the rs4 I had after it made me realise that the 911 turbo was always a bit of a compromise.
In an ideal world I'd have enjoyed the contrast of a big fast saloon for the road and a gt3 on track. The perfect solution in my eyes.
Edited by Niffty951 on Friday 16th November 15:33
Can you not drive properly or do you have difficulty adjusting your inputs and reactions to suit the needs of the car you are driving?
Both the NA and FI are equally good cars and both deliver equal thrills, they just do it in entirely different ways with distinctly different input requirements needed from the driver.
Drive a Turbo like a NA and frankly, you deserve to get a wake up call for being such an idiot, I wouldnt ride a 1000cc the same way I ride a 600, if I did then I would also deserve whatever I got because it is my own ignorant attitude that brought me to that point.
What is it the problem with that?
Why do all things have to do everything and behave in the same way whilst doing it, that is just tedious and utterly boring, all cars will end up driving like Audi's, yaaawwn.
Both the NA and FI are equally good cars and both deliver equal thrills, they just do it in entirely different ways with distinctly different input requirements needed from the driver.
Drive a Turbo like a NA and frankly, you deserve to get a wake up call for being such an idiot, I wouldnt ride a 1000cc the same way I ride a 600, if I did then I would also deserve whatever I got because it is my own ignorant attitude that brought me to that point.
What is it the problem with that?
Why do all things have to do everything and behave in the same way whilst doing it, that is just tedious and utterly boring, all cars will end up driving like Audi's, yaaawwn.
Motormatt said:
Slightly fearful that this article is the result of someone at PH towers alleviating Friday afternoon boredom with a bit of trolling, but I'll respond anyway.
I've been lucky enough to drive quite a few 911's. This year I spent 4 days lapping the IOM TT circuit in a manual 993 Turbo, admittedly not a direct comparison to teh 997 Turbo in the article.
However, not once did I think 'This would be more fun if I had less grip, less power, and bit more twitchiness at the limit' it was brilliant fun, ludicrously quick and very well suited to the job.
I understand that on a smooth race circuit any number of GT badged cars are a better prospect, thats what they're built for. But as a fast road car, the Turbo is awesome.
So you're wrong.
I'm not sure if you missed the I've been lucky enough to drive quite a few 911's. This year I spent 4 days lapping the IOM TT circuit in a manual 993 Turbo, admittedly not a direct comparison to teh 997 Turbo in the article.
However, not once did I think 'This would be more fun if I had less grip, less power, and bit more twitchiness at the limit' it was brilliant fun, ludicrously quick and very well suited to the job.
I understand that on a smooth race circuit any number of GT badged cars are a better prospect, thats what they're built for. But as a fast road car, the Turbo is awesome.
So you're wrong.
smiley - the article is wrong because you enjoyed driving a 993 Turbo which is a completely different car?LocoCoco said:
jon- said:
I wonder how many people arguing with the article have actually driven a 997 Turbo.
They are both too fast, and have way too much grip to be fun on the road, if you have the ability to drive a car.
If you're a point and squirt guy, then I can see the appeal, but if you actually like a car to move around, or get any where the limit of grip, a 996/997 turbo on decent tyres will have you risking far too much to get that enjoyment.
Doesn't that apply to pretty much every new car?They are both too fast, and have way too much grip to be fun on the road, if you have the ability to drive a car.
If you're a point and squirt guy, then I can see the appeal, but if you actually like a car to move around, or get any where the limit of grip, a 996/997 turbo on decent tyres will have you risking far too much to get that enjoyment.
g3org3y said:
Well in that case, next week we'll have a 'Tell me I'm wrong: Nissan GTR' because the same applies IMO.
Depends if Dan has driven one I'd agree with that article too though.Motormatt said:
Slightly fearful that this article is the result of someone at PH towers alleviating Friday afternoon boredom with a bit of trolling, but I'll respond anyway.
I've been lucky enough to drive quite a few 911's. This year I spent 4 days lapping the IOM TT circuit in a manual 993 Turbo, admittedly not a direct comparison to teh 997 Turbo in the article.
However, not once did I think 'This would be more fun if I had less grip, less power, and bit more twitchiness at the limit' it was brilliant fun, ludicrously quick and very well suited to the job.
I understand that on a smooth race circuit any number of GT badged cars are a better prospect, thats what they're built for. But as a fast road car, the Turbo is awesome.
So you're wrong.
I've been lucky enough to drive quite a few 911's. This year I spent 4 days lapping the IOM TT circuit in a manual 993 Turbo, admittedly not a direct comparison to teh 997 Turbo in the article.
However, not once did I think 'This would be more fun if I had less grip, less power, and bit more twitchiness at the limit' it was brilliant fun, ludicrously quick and very well suited to the job.
I understand that on a smooth race circuit any number of GT badged cars are a better prospect, thats what they're built for. But as a fast road car, the Turbo is awesome.
So you're wrong.
yellowbentines said:
I'm not sure if you missed the smiley - the article is wrong because you enjoyed driving a 993 Turbo which is a completely different car?
The article is about the 911 turbo. smiley - the article is wrong because you enjoyed driving a 993 Turbo which is a completely different car?What did you think it was about?
As an owner of air cooled Porsche 911's since 1963, my first Porsche being a 1961, 356B Super 90 and my current cars an '85 Carrera and a 1991, Turbo 965, I have to say the degree of excitement in a Turbo charged 911, weather on the street or on a race track is phenominal. Perhaps the author of this article does not know how to extract just the right amount of power from a turbo engine in the turns to realize that the turbo is ALWAYS faster. These are not just straight away cars, ask Hurley Haywood.
monthefish said:
The article is about the 911 turbo.
What did you think it was about?
It also explicitly says that it's about 911 turbos since they became "sanitised", and one could easily argue that the 993 was the last non-sanitised car, although I guess it would be fairer to say it was the start of the sanitisation process. What did you think it was about?
I've driven a 930 turbo and it was ridiculous (in a good way); I drove a 996 turbo and it was just dull.
Edited by kambites on Friday 16th November 15:35
Dan Trent said:
a man in slip ons instead! You can't argue with someone who drives in footwear like that: fact!
Well, I can't argue with that.(slip-on shoes in action at 3:00
)(sorry to link to such a dull video of a turbocharged 911!)
Edited by monthefish on Friday 16th November 17:47
kambites said:
monthefish said:
The article is about the 911 turbo.
What did you think it was about?
It also explicitly says that it's about 911 turbos since they became "sanitised", and one could easily argue that the 993 was the last non-sanitised car, although I guess it would be fairer to say it was the start of the sanitisation process. What did you think it was about?
I've driven a 930 turbo and it was ridiculous (in a good way); I drove a 996 turbo and it was just dull.
One could just as easily (more so) argue that the 964 turbo was the last non-sanitised car, by virute of the fact it was the last RWD turbo.
Sonmeone else would argue that the 964 was too sanitised copared to the previous model.
The point is, the article was non-specific about which generation of 911 turbo.
I think many people are missing the point here. Many are complaining that the 911T is dull, uninspiring or simply too easy to drive quickly. But you have to remember the market that the 911T is designed to cater for. It's not supposed to be a hardcore, balls-out driver focused sports car, the sole purpose of which is to deliver visceral driver thrills - that's what the GT3 is for. The Turbo is a fast GT car, for middle aged men who want to travel at speed and comfort, in a relatively compact package. It's no coincidence that it's competent and easy to drive, which some would consider makes it dull, that's exactly how it's been designed to drive. In order to make the amount of performance on offer accessible to it's target market, not necessarily seasoned drivers of performance cars, the Turbo needs to be easy to drive and unintimidating.
It's essentially a moot point saying that the 911T is to dull or easy to drive, because that's exactly what it's supposed to be. If you want the raw,ragged edge, but a GT3.
Mart.
It's essentially a moot point saying that the 911T is to dull or easy to drive, because that's exactly what it's supposed to be. If you want the raw,ragged edge, but a GT3.
Mart.
Edited by Captain Caveman on Friday 16th November 15:57
Edited by Captain Caveman on Friday 16th November 16:00
Captain Caveman said:
I think many people are missing the point here. Many people are complaining that the 911T is dull, uninspiring or simply too easy to drive quickly. But you have to remember the market that the 911T is designed to cater for. It's not supposed to be a hardcore, balls-out driver focused sports car, the sole purpose of which is to deliver visceral driver thrills - that's what the GT3 is for. The Turbo is a fast GT car, for middle aged men who want to travel at speed and comfort, in a relatively compact package. It's no coincidence that it's competent and easy to drive, which some would consider makes it dull, that's exactly how it's been designed to drive. In order to make the amount of performance on offer accessible to it's target market, not necessarily a seasoned driver of performance cars, the Turbo needs to be easy to drive and unintimidating.
It's essentially a moot point saying that the 911T is to dull or easy to drive, because that's exactly what it's supposed to be. If you want the raw,ragged edge, but a GT3.
Mart.
Agreed, and well put It's essentially a moot point saying that the 911T is to dull or easy to drive, because that's exactly what it's supposed to be. If you want the raw,ragged edge, but a GT3.
Mart.
Edited by Captain Caveman on Friday 16th November 15:57
Didn't I read somewhere that it is Walter Rohrl's daily ? nuff said . . . . .
I don't think it is dull, merely the roads that we are usually using them on are not up to it.
Envious of the bloke who spent 4 days peddling a 993 Turbo round the IOM, I don't think I have ever recovered from the Performance Car of the year vid filmed on the IOM, including the Aren Red 993t
it certainly had a bearing on my 996t purchase all these years later.
A bit like having a 12 inch D1ck I would (only regretably
) guess . . . just because you can't use all of it all of the time, doesn't mean it isn't good to have.
I don't think it is dull, merely the roads that we are usually using them on are not up to it.
Envious of the bloke who spent 4 days peddling a 993 Turbo round the IOM, I don't think I have ever recovered from the Performance Car of the year vid filmed on the IOM, including the Aren Red 993t
it certainly had a bearing on my 996t purchase all these years later.A bit like having a 12 inch D1ck I would (only regretably
) guess . . . just because you can't use all of it all of the time, doesn't mean it isn't good to have. Edited by the other me on Friday 16th November 16:09
Captain Caveman said:
I think many people are missing the point here. Many people are complaining that the 911T is dull, uninspiring or simply too easy to drive quickly. But you have to remember the market that the 911T is designed to cater for. It's not supposed to be a hardcore, balls-out driver focused sports car, the sole purpose of which is to deliver visceral driver thrills - that's what the GT3 is for. The Turbo is a fast GT car, for middle aged men who want to travel at speed and comfort, in a relatively compact package. It's no coincidence that it's competent and easy to drive, which some would consider makes it dull, that's exactly how it's been designed to drive. In order to make the amount of performance on offer accessible to it's target market, not necessarily a seasoned driver of performance cars, the Turbo needs to be easy to drive and unintimidating.
It's essentially a moot point saying that the 911T is to dull or easy to drive, because that's exactly what it's supposed to be. If you want the raw,ragged edge, but a GT3.
Mart.
I don't think that's quite fair on the 911. The original turbo was a flagship for performance.. super car pace in a regular sports car model. A giant slayer.It's essentially a moot point saying that the 911T is to dull or easy to drive, because that's exactly what it's supposed to be. If you want the raw,ragged edge, but a GT3.
Mart.
Edited by Captain Caveman on Friday 16th November 15:57
I think the turbo is still built to be the performance flagship. Supercars today tend to be 4wd, slightly safer and easier to drive (for better or for worse) and how it matches up to its task is maybe a question but I don't think it was ever designed to be the safe 911 for older gents. I'm still in my 20's (just) and I fully appreciate the turbo's values.
Assuming you consider this bloke a good driver it may be worth a reminder of the comments of Plato, that famous Greek driving God
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Pq_mm9BHI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6Pq_mm9BHI
As others have said, the point of the 911 being a range of cars is that there's something for everyone, so if the Turbo isn't your cup of tea, look at something else instead.
But then, you know this. You even point it out in the article.
These "Tell me I'm wrong" articles really seem to just be a way of filling some space by rehashing a tired cliche in the name of "debate".
But then, you know this. You even point it out in the article.
These "Tell me I'm wrong" articles really seem to just be a way of filling some space by rehashing a tired cliche in the name of "debate".
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