RE: Tell Me I'm Wrong: Porsche 911 Turbo
Discussion
AMG Merc said:
I have to 
- at least twice above it has been commented that turbos are "too fast". Do Lewis and Jenson arrive at the track concerned that their company cars are "too fast"?! Cars are mechanical - actually Breaking News: they don't even move unless you do something (unless parked on a hill with the HB off). A car can't be too fast - a driver can 
. Joking aside, isn't it the driver's job to respect, harness and apply an engine's inherent ability to deliver rate of speed?
Yes, and as I believe Mark Donohue said, when you can leave black marks from the exit of one corner to the entry of the next then you have enough power. - at least twice above it has been commented that turbos are "too fast". Do Lewis and Jenson arrive at the track concerned that their company cars are "too fast"?! Cars are mechanical - actually Breaking News: they don't even move unless you do something (unless parked on a hill with the HB off). A car can't be too fast - a driver can . Joking aside, isn't it the driver's job to respect, harness and apply an engine's inherent ability to deliver rate of speed?But that is entirely in the context of racing, where the purpose is to win - not just have a laugh, or has a speed limit of 70mph, or traffic doing 25mph in a 60mph zone. Wasn't Hamilton driving around in a Merc ML320 at one point? Diesel, bling machine and nothing else.
The point being, yes, we can modulate our speed, modulate the throttle, but in the case of these very capable cars you'll be lucky to get to 3/10th's of their ability on the road and retain your license, and therefore is dull "on the road" - anything too quick largely leaves me frustrated when on the road as you can never exploit it. When you are able to fully exploit a car, or near to, then you're having fun.
All IMHO.
yellowbentines said:
monthefish said:
The article is about the 911 turbo.
What did you think it was about?
So you think every variant is the same and directly comparable?What did you think it was about?
Of course you don't, you're being facetious.
The article was non-specific about which generation of 911 turbo, which is why you were wrong to have a go at the chap who was usuing his experince of a 993 turbo to demonsrate his point.
You were trying to be smart, but got it wrong.
RobCrezz said:
911 Turbos need to be louder. I think part of the problem is the lack of sound.
Couldn't agree more- the only area that has always put me off them. Unfortunately, from my experience all an exhaust does (even a straight through one) is increase backfire and boominess- you dnt seem to ever be able to get that 'guttural' or 'metallic' sound the n/a models have. For example: Carrera 4S
Turbo
The only option seems like madder turbo charging
monthefish said:
yellowbentines said:
monthefish said:
The article is about the 911 turbo.
What did you think it was about?
So you think every variant is the same and directly comparable?What did you think it was about?
Of course you don't, you're being facetious.
The article was non-specific about which generation of 911 turbo, which is why you were wrong to have a go at the chap who was usuing his experince of a 993 turbo to demonsrate his point.
You were trying to be smart, but got it wrong.
Nevertheless, I stand by the relevance of my post.
Any 911 turbo from the 993 onwards holds the same position and purpose in the Porsche model line-up.
Dan's article compares the turbo to more basic or more track biased models in the 911 line up and in that respect, nothing has changed since the car I was driving was built in 1996.
Motormatt said:
monthefish said:
Not at all, as I said above.
The article was non-specific about which generation of 911 turbo, which is why you were wrong to have a go at the chap who was usuing his experince of a 993 turbo to demonsrate his point.
I'll wade in here and add that I also qualified my comparison with "admittedly not a direct comparison to teh 997 Turbo in the article" (complete with spelling mistake!). The article was non-specific about which generation of 911 turbo, which is why you were wrong to have a go at the chap who was usuing his experince of a 993 turbo to demonsrate his point.
Nevertheless, I stand by the relevance of my post.
Any 911 turbo from the 993 onwards holds the same position and purpose in the Porsche model line-up.
Dan's article compares the turbo to more basic or more track biased models in the 911 line up and in that respect, nothing has changed since the car I was driving was built in 1996.
As Pistonwot and AMG Merc said,
If you think the car is too fast, dear tester, then the car/driver interface is f
ked.
And it isn't the car that's fked.
If you can't get your brain to calibrate and compute what you are doing on our roads, should you really behind the wheel of such machinery? I'd suggest a Reliant Regal is more your style.
Or, "tell ME in wrong"!!!!
If you think the car is too fast, dear tester, then the car/driver interface is f
ked.And it isn't the car that's f
ked.If you can't get your brain to calibrate and compute what you are doing on our roads, should you really behind the wheel of such machinery? I'd suggest a Reliant Regal is more your style.
Or, "tell ME in wrong"!!!!
My 997 turbo (gen2) sounds pretty good, it needs to be in Sports Plus which gives the exhaust note a harder note but it sounds good inside and out. It doesn't sound like a Lambo or Ferrari admittly, however if sounds better than the GTR I had a few years ago. It is certainly more usable than any Ferrari, Lambo or GTR for that matter.
Whilst we are on the subject what are they like on a wet track day? Say for example if one was to take it out today when its 10 degrees C and greasy or raining. Surely it would be fun then?
I remember reading a test article years ago, Derek Bell drove a whole load of different super cars including the 959. What always stuck in my mind was his comment about driving in the rain/cold and how he would always choose a 4wd for this reason.
I remember reading a test article years ago, Derek Bell drove a whole load of different super cars including the 959. What always stuck in my mind was his comment about driving in the rain/cold and how he would always choose a 4wd for this reason.
rtz62 said:
As Pistonwot and AMG Merc said,
If you think the car is too fast, dear tester, then the car/driver interface is fked.
And it isn't the car that's fked.
If you can't get your brain to calibrate and compute what you are doing on our roads, should you really behind the wheel of such machinery? I'd suggest a Reliant Regal is more your style.
Or, "tell ME in wrong"!!!!
You are wrong....If you think the car is too fast, dear tester, then the car/driver interface is f
ked.And it isn't the car that's f
ked.If you can't get your brain to calibrate and compute what you are doing on our roads, should you really behind the wheel of such machinery? I'd suggest a Reliant Regal is more your style.
Or, "tell ME in wrong"!!!!
Drive a modern 911 turbo to shops and back. (don't buy much or "boot" won't be able to cope)
Drive a 205 gti (insert low powered, short geared, low weight non electric power steering, non fly by wire throttle car here) to shops and back.
What percentage of time are you at 100% of car's capability on both trips? Ignoring driver "talent"... Road conditions and ability to keep licence will dictate that except for 2 secs of WOT in Porsche and possibly a brave attempt to reach the limit of adhesion on a roundabout you are nowhere near the limit in the Porsche.
Which car would I rather have, definitely the porsche. Which car can you actually "drive"? Think this is becoming a common theme on PH!
I drove a 2008 997 turbo from a well known dealer to a photo shoot and back (probably around 1.5 hours in all) and was amazed by the grip and power, it easily flew up to an indicated 155mph but felt the same - rock solid - as it was at 70. Very easy to extract the power and it felt quick (not savage), but I was left feeling completely unattracted to it. I have had far better times with much slower cars, hussling them to extract the very best from them - one of the best drives I ever had was a run back from Salisbury to London in a 1275cc Mini. It was a job to overtake things which made it a challenge, and in corners it was easy to be on the limit at legal speeds.
It's been said before and I agree with it - the 911 turbo is a safe car for blokes with money who don't know better, or who don't want anything more than a great car which is an absolute rocket and all-round supercar. But, ultimately, it's a bit boring to those who really want a challenge and to really feel like 'they' are driving.
So, no you're not wrong, you're bang on.
It's been said before and I agree with it - the 911 turbo is a safe car for blokes with money who don't know better, or who don't want anything more than a great car which is an absolute rocket and all-round supercar. But, ultimately, it's a bit boring to those who really want a challenge and to really feel like 'they' are driving.
So, no you're not wrong, you're bang on.
yellowbentines said:
Lets just agree that we view the articles from different perspectives and have differing views. After reading over it again I agree it doesn't specifically state it refers to the 997 only, however my take on it is that's what the writer is getting at - photos are even all 997 and the spec list at the bottom is for a 997 only.
Oh well, I suppose the only course of action open is to drive 930, 964 and 993 Turbos and a couple of GT2s of various types and then face the fact I may have to eat my words. Bummer, eh? 
Seriously though, the piece was aimed mainly at the 997 and certainly 996-onwards so this was the thrust of the argument. Glad to see it's got everyone talking though.
Cheers,
Dan
I owned a 996 Turbo for eighteen months. Speed wise it was great fun but licence losingly fast - just hitting .7bar boost in third was 125mph. Mainly what I had against it was how horribly noisy it was on motorway journeys - - that and the utterly crap Bose stereo. I thought it was too much of a half way house quick, relatively unrefined but not intimate enough to love.
I've had the luck of owning a 993 Cabrio, a 2.7 Cayman, a 997 C2 and a 997.1 Turbo. The latter was somewhat U$30M over my right brain budget so I decided to sell it after 2 years. So I now enjoy a Boxster 3.4 Porsche Design 2.
So, you may ask?
Well, I enjoy the Boxster the most, and in explaining it, I will attempt to explain how I feel about the Turbo.
The Boxster is as close to automotive poetry as you can get. It handles incredibly well (and I admit it’s all about the curves for me, as any chump can press a pedal and hold a straight line), its tossable like you dream the Turbo should be, and with the sport exhaust turned on and the roof down (and Ray Charles on the Bose speakers), it seems hard to get it any better. A Cayman with an open roof!
I guess the 997 C2 would be the first to go if I had to shed weight from my giant Zeppelin, as it did everything well and left no lasting memories. But it was a perfect everyday sports car, and far more useable for your average Joe. And I could keep up with a C2S driven with similar skill at the track (and I didn't have LSD), so compared to the more expensive 3.8 S, its better value.
Next to get the boot is the Cayman, even if it’s by far the best handling of the lot. But that's only because I have the Boxster which so far seems equally agile, but with the bonus of more power, open roof and a very sexy exhaust note. After the Cayman I would dump the Turbo.
Ahhh...the Turbo. It’s a love/hate relationship. God-car to the Porsche groupies, bane of almost anything NA this side of a Z06 and guilty of offering professional grade speed to the ignorant cash/credit rich masses. Homer Simpson can finally behave like Mr. Moss behind the wheel. The acceleration is giggly silly, braking is so hard it can send snot out of your nostrils, and it seems it does everything well. On the highway, in town and on the track. Even if you think it doesn’t have much feel, or hate the nuclear leaf-blower sound of the exhaust, you will still whip a GT3 on a race track. Let alone straight line acceleration. And it does all this in quiet, controlled GT-like comfort. Amazing. And nobody will believe you it consumes fuel like your uncle’s V6 Accord.
And that’s the problem. It’s almost the Accord of supercars. I agree that once you get close to taming the beast, or understanding it, it’s very rewarding to drive. You will not find a better weapon to drive incredibly fast, safe and under any pavement or condition like a 997 Turbo. It may seem uninvolving given how effortlessly it does all this, or boring to someone getting off a quivering GT3 stallion, but I liked it. I’m just happy I am off that drug.
What I learned was that the car is sooo easy to drive over your limit, that you constantly overshoot corners and need to brake so hard that understeer is inevitable. So you learn to mash the brakes, double clutch the 305’s so they don’t mess up (no PDK for me), and accelerate as hard as you dare on exit once you have the ‘jet aircraft’ properly set up. And when you do, it’s exhilarating. And you look like Mr. Moss. But that is on the track. As most of us will do, if you do silly things on an open road, you will be doing them at unthinkable speeds, which can get scary. But that’s me. Seems I don’t trust myself with a loaded Turbo in my hands.
And the 993, you ask? I’d rather die crashing the Zeppelin into the mountains than throw a good 993 to save my skin. And if I need to explain, you haven’t understood a word I’ve said. So I don’t care.
So, you may ask?
Well, I enjoy the Boxster the most, and in explaining it, I will attempt to explain how I feel about the Turbo.
The Boxster is as close to automotive poetry as you can get. It handles incredibly well (and I admit it’s all about the curves for me, as any chump can press a pedal and hold a straight line), its tossable like you dream the Turbo should be, and with the sport exhaust turned on and the roof down (and Ray Charles on the Bose speakers), it seems hard to get it any better. A Cayman with an open roof!
I guess the 997 C2 would be the first to go if I had to shed weight from my giant Zeppelin, as it did everything well and left no lasting memories. But it was a perfect everyday sports car, and far more useable for your average Joe. And I could keep up with a C2S driven with similar skill at the track (and I didn't have LSD), so compared to the more expensive 3.8 S, its better value.
Next to get the boot is the Cayman, even if it’s by far the best handling of the lot. But that's only because I have the Boxster which so far seems equally agile, but with the bonus of more power, open roof and a very sexy exhaust note. After the Cayman I would dump the Turbo.
Ahhh...the Turbo. It’s a love/hate relationship. God-car to the Porsche groupies, bane of almost anything NA this side of a Z06 and guilty of offering professional grade speed to the ignorant cash/credit rich masses. Homer Simpson can finally behave like Mr. Moss behind the wheel. The acceleration is giggly silly, braking is so hard it can send snot out of your nostrils, and it seems it does everything well. On the highway, in town and on the track. Even if you think it doesn’t have much feel, or hate the nuclear leaf-blower sound of the exhaust, you will still whip a GT3 on a race track. Let alone straight line acceleration. And it does all this in quiet, controlled GT-like comfort. Amazing. And nobody will believe you it consumes fuel like your uncle’s V6 Accord.
And that’s the problem. It’s almost the Accord of supercars. I agree that once you get close to taming the beast, or understanding it, it’s very rewarding to drive. You will not find a better weapon to drive incredibly fast, safe and under any pavement or condition like a 997 Turbo. It may seem uninvolving given how effortlessly it does all this, or boring to someone getting off a quivering GT3 stallion, but I liked it. I’m just happy I am off that drug.
What I learned was that the car is sooo easy to drive over your limit, that you constantly overshoot corners and need to brake so hard that understeer is inevitable. So you learn to mash the brakes, double clutch the 305’s so they don’t mess up (no PDK for me), and accelerate as hard as you dare on exit once you have the ‘jet aircraft’ properly set up. And when you do, it’s exhilarating. And you look like Mr. Moss. But that is on the track. As most of us will do, if you do silly things on an open road, you will be doing them at unthinkable speeds, which can get scary. But that’s me. Seems I don’t trust myself with a loaded Turbo in my hands.
And the 993, you ask? I’d rather die crashing the Zeppelin into the mountains than throw a good 993 to save my skin. And if I need to explain, you haven’t understood a word I’ve said. So I don’t care.
Edited by Orcfromthesouth on Friday 16th November 20:03
I must say I disagree too.
I own a 997.1 turbo cabriolet and it is awesome. Yes, it can be scarily fast, but that doesn't mean you have to drive it at that speed. Just cause the car can do that, doesn't mean you have to make it do that.
I admit I do play with a slightly heavier right foot every so often (why else buy a car like that), but only when it is safe and possible to do so.
It is everything you need in a car, comfortable for long journeys, exceedingly capable when the need arises or the conditions allow, and yes, it is 4 wheel drive and may not kick the tail out on a corner like a GT3 would, but other than an episode of Top Gear, how often does anyone drive like that in the real world.
And finally, in response to S3000's comment, I'm not single, I have a wife and a 9 month old daughter and this is why I have the turbo and not a GT3 cause it will take the family as it has 4 seats, although the turbos never get a work out when the little one is in the car for obvious reasons.
I own a 997.1 turbo cabriolet and it is awesome. Yes, it can be scarily fast, but that doesn't mean you have to drive it at that speed. Just cause the car can do that, doesn't mean you have to make it do that.
I admit I do play with a slightly heavier right foot every so often (why else buy a car like that), but only when it is safe and possible to do so.
It is everything you need in a car, comfortable for long journeys, exceedingly capable when the need arises or the conditions allow, and yes, it is 4 wheel drive and may not kick the tail out on a corner like a GT3 would, but other than an episode of Top Gear, how often does anyone drive like that in the real world.
And finally, in response to S3000's comment, I'm not single, I have a wife and a 9 month old daughter and this is why I have the turbo and not a GT3 cause it will take the family as it has 4 seats, although the turbos never get a work out when the little one is in the car for obvious reasons.
Edited by kenyakirk on Friday 16th November 18:57
Dan Trent said:
OK, if you won't take it from me listen to a man in slip ons instead! You can't argue with someone who drives in footwear like that: fact!
Dan
Dan,Dan
I'd suggest watching the entire video not just a snippet, as the chap says in that segment he didnt have much time to test it properly - his mind was soon changed after it stomped on all competition on the track:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5xbHiO9uOE
Edited by shantybeater on Friday 16th November 18:58
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