RE: Focus RS stop-gap is here
Discussion
300bhp/ton said:
Some good points there. Although I think that's quite the crux of it. Cars like an Elise or an Impreza largely rely on their off the line traction for some of their stats. Once rolling they are nowhere near as fast.
I once had a blast against an Elise 135 while in my z28. On paper the Elise should have been pretty close to my 0-60 and 0-100 times, so "should" have been able to hang with me. The reality was it wasn't even close. 20-80mph or 20-100mph just wasn't a comparison. All of their traction advantage negated and I could pull 3-4 bus lengths on them with relative ease. Was quite an eye opener.
With respect though the Elise 135 is 135 bhp, its not exactly a lot, I could match one in a 172 (except off the line).I once had a blast against an Elise 135 while in my z28. On paper the Elise should have been pretty close to my 0-60 and 0-100 times, so "should" have been able to hang with me. The reality was it wasn't even close. 20-80mph or 20-100mph just wasn't a comparison. All of their traction advantage negated and I could pull 3-4 bus lengths on them with relative ease. Was quite an eye opener.
I think the thing is, people tend to believe BHP / Tonne is the be-all, end-all. It isn't, not even close, but that doesn't stop people believing it.
A 'vette with a huge torquey engine is always going to tear an Elise a new one unless said Elise has been hugely fettled.
300bhp/ton said:
True, but I think the Elise 135 was rated at 5.5-5.7 sec 0-60mph, which places it up against some pretty nifty motors.
Indeed, but (I know I'm telling you to suck eggs here) 0-60 is more about weight and traction than it is about speed and power. 60-100 is a far more useful benchmark. I'd be willing to bet a 135 Elise would struggle to crack 10 seconds from 60-100, whereas something like an E36 M3, 350Z and similar which have similar 0-60 times will do it in 8 seconds or thereabouts.... never mind something like a 'vette which I'm guessing will be around the 5-6 second mark tops?356Speedster said:
Pistonwot said:
Yes, it was a bit childish I suppose.
In my defence I meant it light-heartedly but writing doesnt always come across how its intended.
Honestly though.
What is the point of calling this site PH and everyone pretending its aimed at enthusiasts? It is questionable how the ethos is constantly rearranged to allow marketing departments to regurgitate as much false information and empty accolades as they can whilst praising absolute banality whilst loudly applauding mediocrity as a great thing?
True PH'ers need to man up and be heard before its too late.
The comparison to the Sierra is one of apples to oranges.
This RS is supposed to be a hot hatch the Escort Mk3 is therefore comparible as it is a hot hatch as well.
The Sierra you mention is in fact a large family car akin to the Mondeo I suppose.
2 completely different things.
RS Turbo weighed 1080 kg.
Doesnt look so good comparatively and I do think that is a lot of money for such vehicle.
I realise youre right about the manufacturers, of course, but it doesnt mean I have to become as stupid as they treat us and obviously believe we are.
I used to really admire Ford when it made focussed (not a pun) sporting cars (MK2 RS2000,RS500, RS200 etc) they do not anymore.
Thats why Ford can sell their current lack-lustre produce to someone else and it is also why I dont like it.
I will buy Ford again when they sort their cars out.
No harm, no foul In my defence I meant it light-heartedly but writing doesnt always come across how its intended.
Honestly though.
What is the point of calling this site PH and everyone pretending its aimed at enthusiasts? It is questionable how the ethos is constantly rearranged to allow marketing departments to regurgitate as much false information and empty accolades as they can whilst praising absolute banality whilst loudly applauding mediocrity as a great thing?
True PH'ers need to man up and be heard before its too late.
The comparison to the Sierra is one of apples to oranges.
This RS is supposed to be a hot hatch the Escort Mk3 is therefore comparible as it is a hot hatch as well.
The Sierra you mention is in fact a large family car akin to the Mondeo I suppose.
2 completely different things.
RS Turbo weighed 1080 kg.
Doesnt look so good comparatively and I do think that is a lot of money for such vehicle.
I realise youre right about the manufacturers, of course, but it doesnt mean I have to become as stupid as they treat us and obviously believe we are.
I used to really admire Ford when it made focussed (not a pun) sporting cars (MK2 RS2000,RS500, RS200 etc) they do not anymore.
Thats why Ford can sell their current lack-lustre produce to someone else and it is also why I dont like it.
I will buy Ford again when they sort their cars out.
I completely agree with a lot of what you say and yes, PH can be an odd place at times! I will always fight for fun and lightness where appropriate, but we have to be realistic and realise that hotted up versions of normal cars will always be a compromise, due to the fact they're based on mainstream models. In the climate we live, that does mean the additional weight and size issues, etc.
Now, the cars that extol the true PH values are the more extreme machines. I am saddened by the way manual 'boxes are disappearing from our sports cars, just because autos can now be made to produce a faster gearchange. I like, cars with no electronic safety aids or airbags. I like silly power to weight ratios.... but I know we can't have everything.
I used Sierra vs Focus as the comparator because over time the market segments have moved and they are the same size. A Mk3 Escort is more akin to a Fiesta these days, LOL!
Back in the day my mom had an XR3i, friends had RS turbos and Cossies and along the way I also had a G60 Golf. I also got to play with R5 turbos, 205 GTIs and a few other hot hatches, as well as a late Integrale turbo. As much as I'd admit they were fun, that was a lot of yrs ago. I can honestly say that at no point did I expect to like the ST, but 6yrs later, I still have my ST-2 (albeit with 270bhp now) and the RS staggers me with is capabilities daily. It's a keeper. I'd urge you to give a modern fast Ford a try (properly, over a few days, not just on a 2min test drive with a salesman) and then see whether you like it or not. I was surprised 6yrs ago and I still am now!
I just cannot get to grips with 1 thing.
Why do faux sports models need all the added tat? Only Renault and Porsche have really shunned it and look at the products, both are superb. Unfortunately in both instances marketing have used the notion of sporty to money grub severely crippling the vehicles in both instances.
I can feel only dismay at the reasoning for the addition of all the useless addenda.
Its used as a gimmick when the gimmick is in fact the sports vehicles sportyness? Which is then comprehensively ruined by the addenda.
What is the point?
Execu-models are for stuffing full of gimmicks leaving the sports models freedom to be focussed on sportyness?
Is that not the point of the sporty car, to be a tad sporty?
Instead all we get is a series of contradictory and cynical barges and tonnes of marketing lies.
Bah, Im off to sulk
Pistonwot said:
Thats as depressing as it is accurate unfortunately.
I just cannot get to grips with 1 thing.
Why do faux sports models need all the added tat? Only Renault and Porsche have really shunned it and look at the products, both are superb. Unfortunately in both instances marketing have used the notion of sporty to money grub severely crippling the vehicles in both instances.
I can feel only dismay at the reasoning for the addition of all the useless addenda.
Its used as a gimmick when the gimmick is in fact the sports vehicles sportyness? Which is then comprehensively ruined by the addenda.
What is the point?
Execu-models are for stuffing full of gimmicks leaving the sports models freedom to be focussed on sportyness?
Is that not the point of the sporty car, to be a tad sporty?
Instead all we get is a series of contradictory and cynical barges and tonnes of marketing lies.
Bah, Im off to sulk
I think a great many of us here would love some more back to basics models, that are purely about driver focus, but we're unlikely to see many of them built off hum-drum platforms. We have precedence of course (R26R for example), but it's a numbers game unfortunately (i.e. profits).I just cannot get to grips with 1 thing.
Why do faux sports models need all the added tat? Only Renault and Porsche have really shunned it and look at the products, both are superb. Unfortunately in both instances marketing have used the notion of sporty to money grub severely crippling the vehicles in both instances.
I can feel only dismay at the reasoning for the addition of all the useless addenda.
Its used as a gimmick when the gimmick is in fact the sports vehicles sportyness? Which is then comprehensively ruined by the addenda.
What is the point?
Execu-models are for stuffing full of gimmicks leaving the sports models freedom to be focussed on sportyness?
Is that not the point of the sporty car, to be a tad sporty?
Instead all we get is a series of contradictory and cynical barges and tonnes of marketing lies.
Bah, Im off to sulk
I believe that when BMW did it with stripped out M3s (I forget which exact variant it was), many people asked for the missing kit to be re-added as options, which negated the point somewhat!
The solace that we have, is that Caterham, Ariel and the like are still making exactly these cars, albeit, they're toys rather than daily drivers.
Keep the faith!
300bhp/ton said:
There's also quite a healthy kit car and low volume production cars available. So for all of those who think the ST is over weight with too many options, why not go and look up Ginetta, GTM, GTD, Marlin and a good many others and truly support the British car industry.
As I was saying 
I'm on my 3rd low volume Brit car having had a Chesil 356 Speedster, Ariel Atom 3 and now an Ultima Can Am 
As much as I'd like to see a stripped out, caged, mental ST / RS / GTI / VXR, it's unlikely to happen, so thank God for British car industry!!
356Speedster said:
As I was saying I'm on my 3rd low volume Brit car having had a Chesil 356 Speedster, Ariel Atom 3 and now an Ultima Can Am
As much as I'd like to see a stripped out, caged, mental ST / RS / GTI / VXR, it's unlikely to happen, so thank God for British car industry!!
Having had a look at your profile your car history is certainly one to be envious of. I'm on my 3rd low volume Brit car having had a Chesil 356 Speedster, Ariel Atom 3 and now an Ultima Can Am As much as I'd like to see a stripped out, caged, mental ST / RS / GTI / VXR, it's unlikely to happen, so thank God for British car industry!!
Was your Atom on the PH carpool?
300bhp/ton said:
Having had a look at your profile your car history is certainly one to be envious of.
Was your Atom on the PH carpool?
Thanks, I've been lucky enough to have some fun cars, but there's a lot of PH'ers who have a LOT more exotic stuff! And yes, that was my Atom... I miss it Was your Atom on the PH carpool?
300bhp/ton said:
There's also quite a healthy kit car and low volume production cars available. So for all of those who think the ST is over weight with too many options, why not go and look up Ginetta, GTM, GTD, Marlin and a good many others and truly support the British car industry.
Great if you want a 2-seater sports car, huge choice. Although I don't think any are building any kind of stripped out hatchback/205 GTi replacement (or at least a small 4-seater) AFAIK?MarkRSi said:
Great if you want a 2-seater sports car, huge choice. Although I don't think any are building any kind of stripped out hatchback/205 GTi replacement (or at least a small 4-seater) AFAIK?
I admit if you want a 4 seater hatchback then your choices are more limited.But to be honest why must you buy new if that's the case?
Looking at the Ford website the ST is £21-26.5k OTR + £1200 for this upgrade to 280hp.
Parkers seem to suggest that over 3 years it'll lose 30-35% of it's value (and even more if you own for 5 years).
That's £7000-9000 you'll lose in 3 years.
For this sort of money you could for a fraction of the price buy a mint old school hatch without all the fancy aides and gadgets. You could then spend some money making it better than new and upgrading a few bits.
End result would be for less money you'd have essentially a 'new' car to your own spec, only wearing an older number plate. Of course you'll never get that money back, but you'll likely lose a lot less than the £7-9k you would with a new ST.
356Speedster said:
Pistonwot said:
Thats as depressing as it is accurate unfortunately.
I just cannot get to grips with 1 thing.
Why do faux sports models need all the added tat? Only Renault and Porsche have really shunned it and look at the products, both are superb. Unfortunately in both instances marketing have used the notion of sporty to money grub severely crippling the vehicles in both instances.
I can feel only dismay at the reasoning for the addition of all the useless addenda.
Its used as a gimmick when the gimmick is in fact the sports vehicles sportyness? Which is then comprehensively ruined by the addenda.
What is the point?
Execu-models are for stuffing full of gimmicks leaving the sports models freedom to be focussed on sportyness?
Is that not the point of the sporty car, to be a tad sporty?
Instead all we get is a series of contradictory and cynical barges and tonnes of marketing lies.
Bah, Im off to sulk
I think a great many of us here would love some more back to basics models, that are purely about driver focus, but we're unlikely to see many of them built off hum-drum platforms. We have precedence of course (R26R for example), but it's a numbers game unfortunately (i.e. profits).I just cannot get to grips with 1 thing.
Why do faux sports models need all the added tat? Only Renault and Porsche have really shunned it and look at the products, both are superb. Unfortunately in both instances marketing have used the notion of sporty to money grub severely crippling the vehicles in both instances.
I can feel only dismay at the reasoning for the addition of all the useless addenda.
Its used as a gimmick when the gimmick is in fact the sports vehicles sportyness? Which is then comprehensively ruined by the addenda.
What is the point?
Execu-models are for stuffing full of gimmicks leaving the sports models freedom to be focussed on sportyness?
Is that not the point of the sporty car, to be a tad sporty?
Instead all we get is a series of contradictory and cynical barges and tonnes of marketing lies.
Bah, Im off to sulk
I believe that when BMW did it with stripped out M3s (I forget which exact variant it was), many people asked for the missing kit to be re-added as options, which negated the point somewhat!
The solace that we have, is that Caterham, Ariel and the like are still making exactly these cars, albeit, they're toys rather than daily drivers.
Keep the faith!
Maybe its because I dont feel I have to impress anybody and dont want or need my transport to be a mobile entertainment suite.
All I want is a car, not a
I believe more people wish for this.
Simple, small cheap cars rather than complex barges that cost a kidney to buy and another kidney to maintain.(A lot more people than the shady Manufacturers will acknowledge. At least until they are done milking this cash cow)
That BMW thing was 2 things, misguided and bound to fail.
Most people who buy a BMW know little or nothing about cars. Options they know well but cars, nope.
A car is just another "white goods" item thats better IF it has been fully clone approved.
It gets these buyers to work and they feel, it impresses strangers, workmates and pals alike and believe this makes them very impressive.
Why buy a car that has less when more is better just because it is more!
Id bet my life that well over 50% dont even know what they want let alone why they want it and just nod when the salesman says "You'll NEED this".
An example of this pared back approach which did very well is the Impreza RA.
Subaru sold a lot of these and they really were properly stripped, they didnt have underseal, sound proofing, a radio or AC let alone any useless tat.
The RA was indeed a beautiful and sporty car. Had nothing, weighed 1170kg, handled beautifully.
They command a premium now and are sought after.
If buyers wanted extras they had to buy a different model, the RA was the RA.
Why do Manufacturers resist a basic offering so aggresively IF it is only "a few" buyers who want a simple car?
It would cost them NOTHING in labour to supply cars that have nothing installed.
It is my belief that those profiting handsomely may be lying. A LOT.
The premium German approach to marketing cars as lightweight is:
Take one structurally heavy car
De-content standard equipment
Make token but obvious weight savings (cardboard boot floor, string door handles, etc)
Fit optional track day tyres to muddy the waters about how much difference the changes make to lap times.
Charge a premium
Charge another premium to put the standard equipment back
At least when Lotus did something similar with the Elise Club Racer they had the grace to cut the price with the equipment, even if the weight savings were essentially token and included the cunning ploy of taking off the roof (like you can on every Elise).
Take one structurally heavy car
De-content standard equipment
Make token but obvious weight savings (cardboard boot floor, string door handles, etc)
Fit optional track day tyres to muddy the waters about how much difference the changes make to lap times.
Charge a premium
Charge another premium to put the standard equipment back
At least when Lotus did something similar with the Elise Club Racer they had the grace to cut the price with the equipment, even if the weight savings were essentially token and included the cunning ploy of taking off the roof (like you can on every Elise).
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