RE: Chris Harris Video: Hot Hatch Showdown
Discussion
Msportman said:
I sure all three of these hatches are very good in their own ways but the price of them is balooning to even higher unaffordable levels for most!! They will make great buys on the second hand market in a few years.
I'll agree with that. I'm surprised that all three of them actually hold some appeal to me, (and the vauxhall was quite good looking IMO) but knocking on the best part of £30k for a hot hatch seems silly to me. I'd probably enjoy running about in any of them but I just couldn't justify the cost. Will definitely be keeping an eye on used prices though.Grovsie26 said:
Yeah i remember the top gear round up, the CTR and all the other hatches were faster than the golf, yet clarksons stupid bias towards golf gti's made it the best?
Stop talking about golf's im bored already. These 3 cars would piss over a golf, hell my 10 year old DC5 was faster.
Hell a DC2 would make your DC5 look stupid.....as it made a some far more exotic machinery at Castle Combe some years ago. MD of Cheltnham Honda bought his new DC2 on some sticky rubber and Mugen suspension and was lapping 1.16-1.17 times people in the know are extremely quick..not far from saloon car quali times .....Peebles and Co in their 700BHP Evo's.Stop talking about golf's im bored already. These 3 cars would piss over a golf, hell my 10 year old DC5 was faster.
Back on topic re the Golf the MK3/4 were a very poor show as far as track car's but the previous MK2 16V was a delight....nice and light, tunable and great on track with a diff. As for being slow my MK2 will easily keep a DC2/5 honest in it's current spec.
As said previously VW need to make a hardcore version or maybe the MK7 with a proper diff is making an attempt who knows.
Msportman said:
Hell a DC2 would make your DC5 look stupid.....as it made a some far more exotic machinery at Castle Combe some years ago. MD of Cheltnham Honda bought his new DC2 on some sticky rubber and Mugen suspension and was lapping 1.16-1.17 times people in the know are extremely quick..not far from saloon car quali times .....Peebles and Co in their 700BHP Evo's.
Back on topic re the Golf the MK3/4 were a very poor show as far as track car's but the previous MK2 16V was a delight....nice and light, tunable and great on track with a diff. As for being slow my MK2 will easily keep a DC2/5 honest in it's current spec.
As said previously VW need to make a hardcore version or maybe the MK7 with a proper diff is making an attempt who knows.
Well i hope so it's probably been stripped for bits by now and sold on ebay. Dunno how a DC2 would make a DC5 look stupid, but there you go im sure you can enlighten me on that one sometime.Back on topic re the Golf the MK3/4 were a very poor show as far as track car's but the previous MK2 16V was a delight....nice and light, tunable and great on track with a diff. As for being slow my MK2 will easily keep a DC2/5 honest in it's current spec.
As said previously VW need to make a hardcore version or maybe the MK7 with a proper diff is making an attempt who knows.
So after all that crap, your saying modified cars can be fast? Well done. What exactly has that got to do with this topic and golf's that haven't been sold for 25 years?
Here's the odd thing: Whether Mk7 Golf GTi is good or bad, be glad that it exists.
If it turns out to be good, we'll all want one.
If it turns out to be bad, the middle classes will still be tripping over themselves for one anyway, meaning you'll get a better deal on the Megane/Focus/Astra/M135i that you really want instead.
If it turns out to be good, we'll all want one.
If it turns out to be bad, the middle classes will still be tripping over themselves for one anyway, meaning you'll get a better deal on the Megane/Focus/Astra/M135i that you really want instead.
s m said:
KarlMac said:
Still hasn't got proper back seats though. Having used a breadvan 130d
??? 130d? When did that come out?
At least you highlighted the important part of the post with your uber pedantry. Aren't you a big clever boy?
Grovsie26 said:
Well i hope so it's probably been stripped for bits by now and sold on ebay. Dunno how a DC2 would make a DC5 look stupid, but there you go im sure you can enlighten me on that one sometime.
So after all that crap, your saying modified cars can be fast? Well done. What exactly has that got to do with this topic and golf's that haven't been sold for 25 years?
It seems to be a very fine line beyween all three...I suspect badge loyalty will apply to some buyers. My point is that these new breed are sooo expensive and that models I referred to are not duffers my any stretch and some seem to elude. The ED 30/35 models often get overlooked as a package which can easily be turned into great track weapons on a relative small budget on intitial purchase plus a few mods. The VW brand need something hardcore IMO but as with most VAG decisions seem to be made by the marketing dpt.So after all that crap, your saying modified cars can be fast? Well done. What exactly has that got to do with this topic and golf's that haven't been sold for 25 years?
I've never bought into Renaults but I've owned a few 205 GTI's in the late 80's early 90's.
I'm sure the Renault is great on track. It will be interesting to see the new RS models when launched.
KarlMac said:
s m said:
KarlMac said:
Still hasn't got proper back seats though. Having used a breadvan 130d
??? 130d? When did that come out?At least you highlighted the important part of the post with your uber pedantry. Aren't you a big clever boy?
Wasn't really interested in the size of the boot, more the engine
Msportman said:
Trouble is the Golf GTI was the bench when launched (MK1)a good few years back and as time moved on to the current crop companies like Renault went hardcore putting diffs and the like into their hottest versions.
VW never went down this road which was a shame....the Haldex system is a great marketing incentive but is useless for track work.They should have gone down the RS or Megane route with a proper diff.
The Megane is no doubt a great package and perhaps VW should take stock and make a similar hardcore GTI. They seem to cater for the mass market but provide a rounded capable package for most.
My point with the Edition 30 and 35 models is that they can be a great track package on a smaller budget with some additional track orientated items such as the aforementioned parts. I went APR Stage 2 mapping with their HPFP fuel pump exhaist system a quaiffe and AP brakes together with KW Clubsports. All in all much cheaper than the asking price of these new models.I couldn't justify 30k on a hatch ....that's a nice E92 M3 money.
For me I use an old school 2 litre 16V Golf pushing over 200bhp in a light weight shell and diff. It looks OE and gives me the craving I need for track and in it's current spec is very quick for the money....and for my daily / family drive I have a derv Audi which does what is says on the tin.
I sure all three of these hatches are very good in their own ways but the price of them is balooning to even higher unaffordable levels for most!! They will make great buys on the second hand market in a few years.
It's hard to disagree with anything you've said particularly about prices ballooning. It seems like only yesterday you could buy the hottest hatch for 18k! VW never went down this road which was a shame....the Haldex system is a great marketing incentive but is useless for track work.They should have gone down the RS or Megane route with a proper diff.
The Megane is no doubt a great package and perhaps VW should take stock and make a similar hardcore GTI. They seem to cater for the mass market but provide a rounded capable package for most.
My point with the Edition 30 and 35 models is that they can be a great track package on a smaller budget with some additional track orientated items such as the aforementioned parts. I went APR Stage 2 mapping with their HPFP fuel pump exhaist system a quaiffe and AP brakes together with KW Clubsports. All in all much cheaper than the asking price of these new models.I couldn't justify 30k on a hatch ....that's a nice E92 M3 money.
For me I use an old school 2 litre 16V Golf pushing over 200bhp in a light weight shell and diff. It looks OE and gives me the craving I need for track and in it's current spec is very quick for the money....and for my daily / family drive I have a derv Audi which does what is says on the tin.
I sure all three of these hatches are very good in their own ways but the price of them is balooning to even higher unaffordable levels for most!! They will make great buys on the second hand market in a few years.
Edited by Msportman on Monday 26th November 18:30
VW seem to plonk their product right in the middle of the road and it's hard to really say who they are aiming at. It's a shame though because they have got all the fundamentals there. Perhaps keep the normal GTI but also make an R26R equivalent.... the Scirocco R (golf underneath) seemed pretty competent when I had a ride in it but it could do with unshackling the beast underneath and aid it in the manner you've said with the diff and possibly reworked steering feel.
The Golf probably still is the benchmark, but more as an investment proposition. In terms of the driving I think the benchmark is with the 265 and RS.....but then Ford and Renault probably want the residual value, brand image and other things that come with a VW.
Msportman said:
It seems to be a very fine line beyween all three...I suspect badge loyalty will apply to some buyers. My point is that these new breed are sooo expensive and that models I referred to are not duffers my any stretch and some seem to elude. The ED 30/35 models often get overlooked as a package which can easily be turned into great track weapons on a relative small budget on intitial purchase plus a few mods. The VW brand need something hardcore IMO but as with most VAG decisions seem to be made by the marketing dpt.
I've never bought into Renaults but I've owned a few 205 GTI's in the late 80's early 90's.
I'm sure the Renault is great on track. It will be interesting to see the new RS models when launched.
Yeah i agree, but blame inflation? or dumb people shelling out well over 25k for hatchbacks. The golfs are still a bit bland though whatever you do to em, and then you can modify the other as well. People are right, golf's are the jack of all trades, but masters of none.I've never bought into Renaults but I've owned a few 205 GTI's in the late 80's early 90's.
I'm sure the Renault is great on track. It will be interesting to see the new RS models when launched.
Grovsie26 said:
Yeah i agree, but blame inflation? or dumb people shelling out well over 25k for hatchbacks. The golfs are still a bit bland though whatever you do to em, and then you can modify the other as well. People are right, golf's are the jack of all trades, but masters of none.
Yeap I agree....I so wished VW built a proper hardcore model as their powertrain is pretty compelling....it's the absence of a diff, proper brakes (6 pots or similar) and a better front end suspension similar to the Renault would help alleviate it's critics.The interiors are of a nice quality but again some proper Recaro's wouldn't go amiss.
Haldex isn't ideal for track....the Haldex controllers go some way to alleviate some extra rear end fun. I went out in a DSG Golf R (TSI) developed by APR VW Motorsport with this set up but it was a huge investment and yes it was extremely quick and capable but at what cost. 460bhp+AP brakes KW's equated to 1.16 around Combe!!
What we need is a nice lightweight 250-300bhp Golf / Scirocco sporting a proper diff and track orientated suspension.
Edited by Msportman on Wednesday 28th November 22:56
At £22.5k, I'd definitely have the Astra out of those 3. It's easily the best looking, with the best interior and judging by the cooking models feels better built too. A nice place to spend time at the end of a long day but still capable of being a hooligan on demand.
The Megane, whilst appearing to be scalpel sharp, needs to prove it's not as fragile as other Renaults. - I like to own my cars for years, look after them and keep them immaculate. Rattles, bits falling off and wearing prematurely would ruin the whole thing for me.
The Focus looks like cheap '90s Hi-Fi inside and just plain horrendous from outside. A shame, as Ford can do much better. Will sell by the boat load to to chavs though, so what do I know?
If they really did go for list price, the M135i is the obvious choice...with good reason. Just...why can't they make it look more like this:
?
The Megane, whilst appearing to be scalpel sharp, needs to prove it's not as fragile as other Renaults. - I like to own my cars for years, look after them and keep them immaculate. Rattles, bits falling off and wearing prematurely would ruin the whole thing for me.
The Focus looks like cheap '90s Hi-Fi inside and just plain horrendous from outside. A shame, as Ford can do much better. Will sell by the boat load to to chavs though, so what do I know?
If they really did go for list price, the M135i is the obvious choice...with good reason. Just...why can't they make it look more like this:
?
Now this should cause some confusion, the end of an article and the new A Class in the Sunday Times, 4th November, written by a certain Mr J Clarkson:
ETA: Another review of these 3 : http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/focus/61771/focu...
ETA: Another review of these 3 : http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/ford/focus/61771/focu...
Edited by Crafty_ on Friday 7th December 18:05
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff