RE: MG to reinvent sports car
Discussion
sly fox said:
Not sure if anyone has already said this- but i think it's laughable that 'MG' think they actually have a heritage of building great sports cars in the first place, let alone reinvent one.
I have been a passenger in old MGs/MGBs many a time, driven an MGB GT too. Hideous things.
They were affordable little roadsters of their day, and people romanticise this to the extreme and ignore facts. Nasty engines, terrible handling, gearboxes that felt like you were stirring coal, unreliable, rusty i could go on. MG's were not great cars by any stretch of the imagination.
Guess that is the power of a badge. Easiest answer to what should be built is to follow what is currently successful- a drop top version of the GT86 would probably sell and put wide grins on customer faces. Why not build something like that?
one of my favourite things about my F is chucking it around corners!I have been a passenger in old MGs/MGBs many a time, driven an MGB GT too. Hideous things.
They were affordable little roadsters of their day, and people romanticise this to the extreme and ignore facts. Nasty engines, terrible handling, gearboxes that felt like you were stirring coal, unreliable, rusty i could go on. MG's were not great cars by any stretch of the imagination.
Guess that is the power of a badge. Easiest answer to what should be built is to follow what is currently successful- a drop top version of the GT86 would probably sell and put wide grins on customer faces. Why not build something like that?
What I think is needed is a proper four-seater sports car in the GT86 mould. The problem at the moment is that all full four-seater coupes are 'executive' machines laden down with kit and unnecessary options, aimed at the moderately wadded. Things like the BMW 3-series Coupe.
The GT86 is great, but it's obvious that people will sell it when the kids get too big for it.
What I think there's a genuine gap in the market for is a simple, sporty cheap to buy and run full four-seater coupe with a similar FE/RWD setup to the GT86.
Using MG 'retro' styling inspired by the BGT, it could almost look like a modern interpretation of an Aston Martin DB5 (think Touring-bodied Aston crossed with a MINI), appropriate that the original BGT was intended as an Aston tribute. Make sure it has a hatchback rear door and a sufficiently big boot too.
Pricing? It must be GT86 money, no more.
Point is, there seems to be this culture of dumping all notion of sportiness the minute four seats are needed these days. There are plenty of sports cars, all traditional two-seaters or 2+2s with useless rear seats, but at the moment the only four-seater RWD coupes you can buy are all German, very heavy, self-consciously posh and at the bottom end of the price bracket, predominately diesel.
MG should offer their forthcoming diesel engine as an option, of course, but if the N-series Turbo engine was available as a no-cost option, it'd be great.
Thing a modern, two-door take on this:
The GT86 is great, but it's obvious that people will sell it when the kids get too big for it.
What I think there's a genuine gap in the market for is a simple, sporty cheap to buy and run full four-seater coupe with a similar FE/RWD setup to the GT86.
Using MG 'retro' styling inspired by the BGT, it could almost look like a modern interpretation of an Aston Martin DB5 (think Touring-bodied Aston crossed with a MINI), appropriate that the original BGT was intended as an Aston tribute. Make sure it has a hatchback rear door and a sufficiently big boot too.
Pricing? It must be GT86 money, no more.
Point is, there seems to be this culture of dumping all notion of sportiness the minute four seats are needed these days. There are plenty of sports cars, all traditional two-seaters or 2+2s with useless rear seats, but at the moment the only four-seater RWD coupes you can buy are all German, very heavy, self-consciously posh and at the bottom end of the price bracket, predominately diesel.
MG should offer their forthcoming diesel engine as an option, of course, but if the N-series Turbo engine was available as a no-cost option, it'd be great.
Thing a modern, two-door take on this:
CDP said:
There's very little kit in it that you don't get in a regular supermini. It's what the market expects.
It's not supposed to be an Elise just a fun everyday car that ordinary people can enjoy without having to apex Copse near flat out.
Yea but it has feature stitching rather than fabrics being hastily stapled into place out of sight. I bet it even has a clock.It's not supposed to be an Elise just a fun everyday car that ordinary people can enjoy without having to apex Copse near flat out.
CDP said:
Alternatively they need to make Longbridge a realistic plant and have a desirable product. It shouldn't just look like another Nissan/Toyota/Proton/Kia. They already do most of the development here so plenty of British people to interview. Then they have to get the media involved - a lot. Product placement and maybe even advertising wouldn't hurt either.
It really depends what they want but a halfhearted operation at Longbridge just isn't going to cut it.
I had assumed that they would already be advertising in all the traditional places. Train Spotting Monthly, Professional Pub Bore Weekly, Razzle and the backs of haemorrhoid packaging? It really depends what they want but a halfhearted operation at Longbridge just isn't going to cut it.
kambites said:
It's good to hear that the GT86 is doing well. It might encourage a few more manufacturers to try to make proper drivers' cars rather than just fighting to see who can produce the biggest numbers.
That's what I like best about the GT86... The different attitude to the normal "yes we've added even more horsepower which makes it better than the last one"CDP said:
Alternatively they need to make Longbridge a realistic plant and have a desirable product. It shouldn't just look like another Nissan/Toyota/Proton/Kia. They already do most of the development here so plenty of British people to interview. Then they have to get the media involved - a lot. Product placement and maybe even advertising wouldn't hurt either.
It really depends what they want but a halfhearted operation at Longbridge just isn't going to cut it.
I agree.It really depends what they want but a halfhearted operation at Longbridge just isn't going to cut it.
However, I do think this is a great base upon which to build a new image:
MG launched this at the NEC Classic Car Show last weekend:
The 6 BTCC Edition. I'd have one, it looks stunning.
I spoke to the guy on the stand and apparently the diesel is out next month and there's also scope for whacking the boost up on the standard petrol 6 Turbo as well.
Twincam16 said:
and there's also scope for whacking the boost up on the standard petrol 6 Turbo as well.
No time to lose on that one then. If it could compete with an Octavia VRS for the same money and similar CO2 it might be in with a chance. Then get a few out to the police at cost price so they can nick Audi and BMW drivers in them...
CDP said:
Twincam16 said:
and there's also scope for whacking the boost up on the standard petrol 6 Turbo as well.
No time to lose on that one then. If it could compete with an Octavia VRS for the same money and similar CO2 it might be in with a chance. Then get a few out to the police at cost price so they can nick Audi and BMW drivers in them...
However, they've got their heads screwed on over this. Because they know this, they're going to launch the diesel first and aim it at the fleet market. Sound thinking IMO.
300bhp/ton said:
You must have been in some pretty ropey ones.
BTW - care to show me a Mazda or BMW sports car from the 60's or early 70's that was remotely as capable for similar money?
That wasn't the question though was it? BTW - care to show me a Mazda or BMW sports car from the 60's or early 70's that was remotely as capable for similar money?
The MG might have been a fairly good, affordable little roadster ( something i alluded to in my post) but it wasn't a GREAT car, certainly nothing that warrants the supposed heritage that MG claims it has. The MGB GT i have had a ride in had over £12000 spent restoring it, drivetrain, suspension, bodywork. It still wasn't great. I really wanted to like it too, but it just wasn't up to much.
Hence my point, GT86 type tool as a soft top would fit the bill. I expect Toyota/Subaru will come out with one before the Chinese do with MG anyway.
sly fox said:
That wasn't the question though was it? The MG might have been a fairly good, affordable little roadster ( something i alluded to in my post) but it wasn't a GREAT car, certainly nothing that warrants the supposed heritage that MG claims it has.
In it's day it was a great affordable sports car. It looked good, sounded good, was affordable to run and could make you smile and was attainable by the average man/woman. Hence it's popularity and high sales numbers and today it's still popular and affordable and can still make you smile. The MG might have been a fairly good, affordable little roadster ( something i alluded to in my post) but it wasn't a GREAT car, certainly nothing that warrants the supposed heritage that MG claims it has.sly fox said:
The MGB GT i have had a ride in had over £12000 spent restoring it, drivetrain, suspension, bodywork. It still wasn't great. I really wanted to like it too, but it just wasn't up to much.
Great in what way and to what spec was it restored? You could spend £12k (if you wanted) and keep it factory stock, in which case it'll drive and perform like a 60's sports car with 60's sports car performance.What were you comparing it too exactly?
300bhp/ton said:
sly fox said:
That wasn't the question though was it? The MG might have been a fairly good, affordable little roadster ( something i alluded to in my post) but it wasn't a GREAT car, certainly nothing that warrants the supposed heritage that MG claims it has.
In it's day it was a great affordable sports car. It looked good, sounded good, was affordable to run and could make you smile and was attainable by the average man/woman. Hence it's popularity and high sales numbers and today it's still popular and affordable and can still make you smile. The MG might have been a fairly good, affordable little roadster ( something i alluded to in my post) but it wasn't a GREAT car, certainly nothing that warrants the supposed heritage that MG claims it has.sly fox said:
The MGB GT i have had a ride in had over £12000 spent restoring it, drivetrain, suspension, bodywork. It still wasn't great. I really wanted to like it too, but it just wasn't up to much.
Great in what way and to what spec was it restored? You could spend £12k (if you wanted) and keep it factory stock, in which case it'll drive and perform like a 60's sports car with 60's sports car performance.What were you comparing it too exactly?
Read lots about the death of the "classic" sports car in this thread. Some very good posts, thanks gents. I'm not buying it completely though.
I think there is still some good demand out there for a 2 seater, open top, basic sports car. There isn't much out there except for "the answer". But is the NC this answer any longer? I don't think so. They are moving it upmarket bit by bit, softening it up for the most important buyer group (women round 40 IIRC).
The design brief is simple:
- Credible layout, decent handling. RWD mid or front engined preferred.
- At least the halo model of a possible range needs to deliver the same as current hot hatch performance numbers.
- It needs to be "cool". Like the MX5 NA was when it came out in 89.
- It needs to be cheap. So cheap that punters round mid-life are tempted by one as a toy. And more importantly so cheap that people round 20 can afford a new one.
The last two things are difficult of course. Production costs should be manageable with the Chinese background, especially if they treat this as a marketing exercise and keep margins low.
Now, how do you do "cool" in 2012? I have frankely no idea what kids nowadays like in cars.
I think there is still some good demand out there for a 2 seater, open top, basic sports car. There isn't much out there except for "the answer". But is the NC this answer any longer? I don't think so. They are moving it upmarket bit by bit, softening it up for the most important buyer group (women round 40 IIRC).
The design brief is simple:
- Credible layout, decent handling. RWD mid or front engined preferred.
- At least the halo model of a possible range needs to deliver the same as current hot hatch performance numbers.
- It needs to be "cool". Like the MX5 NA was when it came out in 89.
- It needs to be cheap. So cheap that punters round mid-life are tempted by one as a toy. And more importantly so cheap that people round 20 can afford a new one.
The last two things are difficult of course. Production costs should be manageable with the Chinese background, especially if they treat this as a marketing exercise and keep margins low.
Now, how do you do "cool" in 2012? I have frankely no idea what kids nowadays like in cars.
DonkeyApple said:
AAGR said:
Stand by for Politically Incorrect remark ....
Isn't one very good reason why the MG re-launch in this country has flopped, is that the British just do not like/trust the Chinese ?
Personally, I cannot see MG building up any sort of sales platform in this country now that is built by a Chinese parent company. What other Chinese cars, after all, sell in this country too ?
Valid point. Not sure 'trust' is the right word, 'respect' may be better when it comes to anything much more complicated that injection moulding or screwing things together. Isn't one very good reason why the MG re-launch in this country has flopped, is that the British just do not like/trust the Chinese ?
Personally, I cannot see MG building up any sort of sales platform in this country now that is built by a Chinese parent company. What other Chinese cars, after all, sell in this country too ?
But, look at how Kia and Proton arrived here and where they are now. Sadly, for MG to compete by undercutting they would need to close the UK operations and build in China.
http://www.mgfregister.org/forum/download/file.php...
I have also seen pics of the insides of instruments that are just wearing to nothing away after 3 years, and chrome coated parts fading away after a year!
The old MG Rover build quality is like BMW compared to some of these new cars!
chris watton said:
The problem is, from what I have seen on various MG forums, is that quality is worse than before. Take this picture from an owner of one of the latest (2008?) chinese TF 500's, a few years old:
http://www.mgfregister.org/forum/download/file.php...
I have also seen pics of the insides of instruments that are just wearing to nothing away after 3 years, and chrome coated parts fading away after a year!
The old MG Rover build quality is like BMW compared to some of these new cars!
What is most worrying is that it could get so bad without the owner doing something about it.http://www.mgfregister.org/forum/download/file.php...
I have also seen pics of the insides of instruments that are just wearing to nothing away after 3 years, and chrome coated parts fading away after a year!
The old MG Rover build quality is like BMW compared to some of these new cars!
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