RE: Spotted: BMW M3 CS
Discussion
kambites said:
Mermaid said:
SidewaysSi said:
Interactivity, responsiveness etc can't be measured by numbers!
This ^
Something that manufacturers, journalists and probably also buyers seem to have forgotten recently.Pr1964 said:
Ok Playing devils advocate.
E92 335i vs. E46 M3?
Agreed the numbers don't tell the whole story.
Anyone driven them back to back got anything to say?
The Turbo's just add to the excitement No?
E46 M3's are almost classic cars over 12 years old now.
I looked at quite a few e46 M3’s from huge mileage to low mileage garage queens and in the end I just kept thinking about all the recipts they all had stacked up with their history files even the best ones had a tidy stack of bills.
With £13,000 better to go for an E92 335i or buy an £8,000 E46 M3 and keep £5,000 for repairs almost guaranteed to get through it.
Having said that the 335i can cost a few grand in turbo issues if you’re unlucky.
The M3 is probably only going to make the difference if driven like a loony and who really does that?
IMO the steering on the E46 M3’s was no more exciting than my e93.
Maybe the CS steering a la Csl makes the difference?
Not wanting this to be offensive in the slightest but it may just depend what you look for in a car. I would class myself as a bit hardcore or maybe nuts in that I want feel, responsiveness and a great drive above all else. Sounds like you have other priorities and no harm in that.E92 335i vs. E46 M3?
Agreed the numbers don't tell the whole story.
Anyone driven them back to back got anything to say?
The Turbo's just add to the excitement No?
E46 M3's are almost classic cars over 12 years old now.
I looked at quite a few e46 M3’s from huge mileage to low mileage garage queens and in the end I just kept thinking about all the recipts they all had stacked up with their history files even the best ones had a tidy stack of bills.
With £13,000 better to go for an E92 335i or buy an £8,000 E46 M3 and keep £5,000 for repairs almost guaranteed to get through it.
Having said that the 335i can cost a few grand in turbo issues if you’re unlucky.
The M3 is probably only going to make the difference if driven like a loony and who really does that?
IMO the steering on the E46 M3’s was no more exciting than my e93.
Maybe the CS steering a la Csl makes the difference?
Saying all that, I don't think much of the M3 and when you bring cost into it I can see your point in some respects. If I were you, I would forget BMWs if you are looking to spend 13k or so. Get a Caterham and a grand's worth of Volvo v70 or something. They will both give you an experience no BMW ever could! And for a total lower cost
Edited by SidewaysSi on Thursday 6th December 19:42
kambites said:
I just don't like the lack of physical interaction with the gearbox - one of the things I enjoy about driving is the feel of mechanical components being connected to other mechanical components - be them the steering, the brakes, the throttle, the clutch, the cogs in the gearbox,...
I don't think these boxes are bad, in every measurable way they're great, I just don't like them.
One day the driver will just have go, stop, left and right buttons and in every measurable way it'll be better than anything we have now - that doesn't mean I want a car like that. DBW steering is the next step.
So what cars have you driven enough to make this assumption? I dont see any in your "garage"?I don't think these boxes are bad, in every measurable way they're great, I just don't like them.
One day the driver will just have go, stop, left and right buttons and in every measurable way it'll be better than anything we have now - that doesn't mean I want a car like that. DBW steering is the next step.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 6th December 14:27
SidewaysSi said:
No chore but road conditions do not allow it. I love quick driving like anyone but having a car that is great fun at 40mph which then ups its game at faster speeds is more fun more of the time..
You're picking the wrong roads then 
Seriously though, there are very few cars I've found that are more enjoyable to drive while not actually going all that quickly than my E30. The CSL is for the noisy, faster stuff early in the morning on deserted mountain roadsAs for E92s, I've driven a good few and owned one, very competent but quite dull
Leins said:
You're picking the wrong roads then Seriously though, there are very few cars I've found that are more enjoyable to drive while not actually going all that quickly than my E30. The CSL is for the noisy, faster stuff early in the morning on deserted mountain roads
As for E92s, I've driven a good few and owned one, very competent but quite dull
The E36 was also so-so. Seriously though, there are very few cars I've found that are more enjoyable to drive while not actually going all that quickly than my E30. The CSL is for the noisy, faster stuff early in the morning on deserted mountain roadsAs for E92s, I've driven a good few and owned one, very competent but quite dull
Jump a generation and the new M3/M4 will rekindle the fire.
Leins said:
SidewaysSi said:
No chore but road conditions do not allow it. I love quick driving like anyone but having a car that is great fun at 40mph which then ups its game at faster speeds is more fun more of the time..
You're picking the wrong roads then Seriously though, there are very few cars I've found that are more enjoyable to drive while not actually going all that quickly than my E30. The CSL is for the noisy, faster stuff early in the morning on deserted mountain roadsAs for E92s, I've driven a good few and owned one, very competent but quite dull
kambites said:
Big E 118 said:
kambites said:
How close to the CSL's weight could you get a "normal" M3 (or a CS) just by stripping out the bits that the CSL doesn't come with, and how much is down to using different materials in essential components (like the roof)?
Take out the very heavy electric seats in the CS and you're getting a lot closer very easily! I think the other gains needed would get harder and more expensive.ETA: 77kg difference in front seat weight?!?!
Gruber said:
If all you care about it stats on a piece of paper, then I think you've chosen the right car. Enjoy it.
GruberJust saw u drive a E28 M5 very cool :-)
Plus u had the M3 CS Coupe, E46 M3, E92 M3, Z4 M Coupe, 635CSi
Tell me more about the M5 what is it like and how does it compare with the M3 CS and a bit more about the Z4 MC if u can please ?
Just interested in the driving experience / fun factory / noise / engine delivery of power / throttle response ....
Thanks :-)
Craigwww said:
Guvernator said:
What did you think the main issue with it was as I am constantly here things like "I'd have a CSL\M5\M6 tomorrow if it wasn't for that SMG" but I am always confused by these comments as it really isn't that bad? Yes in auto mode it's quite jerky but I found the best way to use it was to totally ignore the auto mode and use it as a manual. I agree it does take a bit of time to learn it so that you can get it to be smooth and get the best out of it, much like a normal manual perhaps 
Just don't get the hate for that box, I think it's pretty decent, has a very positive action. Blipping down going into a corner or WOT upshifts are just superb and in a drivers car, much better than a lot of auto's for it's interaction with the driver. I'd go far as to say I'd prefer the SMG to the flappy paddle full auto in mine.
Me thinks this is another one we can blame that cretin Clarkson for, that bloke really shouldn't be allowed to influence so many motorists with his stupid opinions IMO.
It's the usual PH way mate. Regurgitate a general opinion held by some people who have never actually tried the SMG or tried it for long enough to know what a great addition to an M3 it is.Just don't get the hate for that box, I think it's pretty decent, has a very positive action. Blipping down going into a corner or WOT upshifts are just superb and in a drivers car, much better than a lot of auto's for it's interaction with the driver. I'd go far as to say I'd prefer the SMG to the flappy paddle full auto in mine.
Me thinks this is another one we can blame that cretin Clarkson for, that bloke really shouldn't be allowed to influence so many motorists with his stupid opinions IMO.
Those that have had an SMG car will 95% sing it's praises, those that have had a manual will 95% slate the SMG cars (without ever trying it) and those who have never owned an M3 will side with the general concensus of "manual is better because I'm a driving God".
If the SMG is so bad...Why did BMW ///M division, makers of some of the best cars ever, decide that SMG was better for the CSL, one of the greatest cars ever?
I for one own an SMG car and love it, I wouldn't have a M3 in manual. I have also just bought a Ferrari F430... in manual, I wouldnt have the F1 box in a Ferrari.
Lovely set of cars sir :-)
I am intrigued what made u choose a E46 M3 and F430 combo :-) ?
And more specifically why did u choose E46 M3 SMGII over Manual ?
Yet F430 Manual over F430 Paddle shift :-) ?
Thanks very much
Craigwww said:
So what cars have you driven enough to make this assumption? I dont see any in your "garage"?
Whenever I buy a car I drive as many of the options as I can. In the run up to buying the Elise I drove a large chunk of the 996, 997, 986 and 987 ranges; the M3; the Z4M, S2000; SLK; MX5; MR2; and a whole host of others, more than 20 modernish sports cars plus a load of classics from Ferraris through Porsches and Lotus to MGs. Before buying the wife's Octavia we drove most of the various Golf-sized hatches and small luxo-barges in one form or another, including the (E46M3 again). A few of those cars had automatic or automated gearboxes including the PDK; SMG; and DSG. I've also been lucky enough to drive one or two super-cars which are very much out of any budget I'm likely to have.
I certainly haven't driven everything, far from it, but enough to be pretty certain on my own mind of what I like and what I don't; and cars built in the last ten or twenty years almost universally have some traits that fall into the "don't" category.
Edited by kambites on Friday 7th December 08:18
SidewaysSi said:
Yep, I do find most modern cars total crap to drive to be honest. People don't know what it's like to drive a proper car. I see you are a fellow Elise owner-great choice! That's why I find so called focused cars from mainstream manufacturers a bit dull...only a few modern Porsches are any good in that respect. Means most of the machines I drive are at least 10 years old!
The Elise is far from perfect in that regard - the throttle setup is far from perfect in any variant as is the gear linkage. 
Another one for sale here....
with a more grown up interior!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-BMW-M3-CS-GREY-SMG-...
with a more grown up interior!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-BMW-M3-CS-GREY-SMG-...
For those concerned with poor steering feel, this can be improved by moving the front strut tops inwards to increase negative camber angle. There are factory lock bolts in the top mounts which can be removed to allow this, settings are still within factory tolerances as far as i know. With a proper set up this improves turn-in and self-centering for a better drive. My old standard M3:
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