RE: The end of M
Discussion
Well whatever they're doing, they're doing it right.
http://europe.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A...
BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi should be applauded for doing so well this year.
http://europe.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A...
BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi should be applauded for doing so well this year.
Audi and Mercedes seem to have reason to offer N/A performance models in their range. The new RS4 and SLK AMG could easily have switched to turbo engines in light of where the market is going. Even the 350 Merc has remained relevant thanks to some impressive economy figures on the official cycle. There must be an audience for both brands to justify it.
I think that Dan (the author) is misinterpreting the business here. What's most evident is that BMW are 'evolving' their cars in the direction which will attract the biggest audience. Quite frankly, if you were a shareholder and you wanted to maximise return on your investment, you'd be wanting BMW to do the same thing.
I'm hopefully lining up the M135i as my next car as a 20'000 miles/year workhorse. It's both exciting and economical enough for the job. Do I care that there's an M in the name? Nope, hasn't influenced me at all. But I do understand brand positioning. Some questionable BMW owners litter their cars with M badges, pretending their cars are something they're not, but the point is that they aspire to have an 'M' car, probably without actually realising what this used to mean. And that's my point, BMW are now building 'M' cars that people aspire to and will probably one day buy. That's good marketing. That's good business.
And since DSC has saved my bacon at least 3 times in my current car, I'd say the driver aids and bias towards safety is the right direction too. You can always turn it off if you want more fun!
I'm hopefully lining up the M135i as my next car as a 20'000 miles/year workhorse. It's both exciting and economical enough for the job. Do I care that there's an M in the name? Nope, hasn't influenced me at all. But I do understand brand positioning. Some questionable BMW owners litter their cars with M badges, pretending their cars are something they're not, but the point is that they aspire to have an 'M' car, probably without actually realising what this used to mean. And that's my point, BMW are now building 'M' cars that people aspire to and will probably one day buy. That's good marketing. That's good business.
And since DSC has saved my bacon at least 3 times in my current car, I'd say the driver aids and bias towards safety is the right direction too. You can always turn it off if you want more fun!
DJRC said:
So if this results in the death of "M3 man" and 90% of "enthusiasts" leaving the BMW fold, does that mean that those of us who were brought up on M meaning Dieter Quester, E9 CSLs and turbo charged nutter cars can reclaim the brand whilst you all f
k off elsewhere?
Sounds brilliant to me! When does this revolution start?
Count me in k off elsewhere?Sounds brilliant to me! When does this revolution start?
I'm glad I'm not the only one who knows something of BMW ///M history before the mid 1980's.
I might need a flameproof suit for this...
I don't give a baboon's behind about BMW's M Division. I don't care about its heritage; I don't care about the "M3" name and I don't care if people think "M" is losing its way.
I care about the E30 M3, about the M Coupé and similarly bonkers cars. The badges can all get stuck on teenagers' 116i's for all I care.
So what if BMW call their next car M3, M4 or Mavis? I'm far more interested in how the thing drives. As long as they don't call it the BMW Merkin or something similarly catastrophic, I'm unlikely to care.
The M135i shows that BMW can design build a car that is good to drive and doesn't come in at a stupid price. That's all I care about. (You don't have to look at it when you're inside the thing driving it!)
That gives me far more hope for fun-to-drive BMW's for the future than this article gives me pessimism. The M135i is something tangible we can see and assess. While I mean no disrespect to the PH staffer who penned this, I believe the author to be overly pessimistic and judging BMW before we've even seen the products that are being moaned about.
Engineers have always wanted to build things that don't sell and don't add up. That's not Mr Robertson's fault and it's not his job to care-as previously said, if he doesn't do it he'll be sacked and someone else would do this instead. (Personal attacks about the chap's appearance are a rather low blow from internet warriors; poor show, fellows.) It's the engineers job to be inventive enough come up with an exciting proposition that makes sense to Mr Robertson's team. It's not Mr Robertson's team's job to sell anything the engineers come up with that won't turn a profit, or else there won't be a BMW at all.
I'll never be able to afford an M3/M4/M-whatever-number-you-choose. If I'm lucky, I might be able to afford an M135i and enjoy it for the good car it is.
What about BMW Mini? Oh, they've already done that one...
I don't give a baboon's behind about BMW's M Division. I don't care about its heritage; I don't care about the "M3" name and I don't care if people think "M" is losing its way.
I care about the E30 M3, about the M Coupé and similarly bonkers cars. The badges can all get stuck on teenagers' 116i's for all I care.
So what if BMW call their next car M3, M4 or Mavis? I'm far more interested in how the thing drives. As long as they don't call it the BMW Merkin or something similarly catastrophic, I'm unlikely to care.
The M135i shows that BMW can design build a car that is good to drive and doesn't come in at a stupid price. That's all I care about. (You don't have to look at it when you're inside the thing driving it!)
That gives me far more hope for fun-to-drive BMW's for the future than this article gives me pessimism. The M135i is something tangible we can see and assess. While I mean no disrespect to the PH staffer who penned this, I believe the author to be overly pessimistic and judging BMW before we've even seen the products that are being moaned about.
Engineers have always wanted to build things that don't sell and don't add up. That's not Mr Robertson's fault and it's not his job to care-as previously said, if he doesn't do it he'll be sacked and someone else would do this instead. (Personal attacks about the chap's appearance are a rather low blow from internet warriors; poor show, fellows.) It's the engineers job to be inventive enough come up with an exciting proposition that makes sense to Mr Robertson's team. It's not Mr Robertson's team's job to sell anything the engineers come up with that won't turn a profit, or else there won't be a BMW at all.
I'll never be able to afford an M3/M4/M-whatever-number-you-choose. If I'm lucky, I might be able to afford an M135i and enjoy it for the good car it is.
What about BMW Mini? Oh, they've already done that one...
blearyeyedboy said:
..
I don't give a baboon's behind about BMW's M Division. I don't care about its heritage; I don't care about the "M3" name and I don't care if people think "M" is losing its way.
I care about the E30 M3, about the M Coupé and similarly bonkers cars. The badges can all get stuck on teenagers' 116i's for all I care.
So what if BMW call their next car M3, M4 or Mavis? I'm far more interested in how the thing drives. As long as they don't call it the BMW Merkin or something similarly catastrophic, I'm unlikely to care.
The M135i shows that BMW can design build a car that is good to drive and doesn't come in at a stupid price. That's all I care about. (You don't have to look at it when you're inside the thing driving it!)
Shareholders matter, and BMW is a mainstream vehicle manufacturer. That we get some specials is a bonus. Porsche is headed that way too.I don't give a baboon's behind about BMW's M Division. I don't care about its heritage; I don't care about the "M3" name and I don't care if people think "M" is losing its way.
I care about the E30 M3, about the M Coupé and similarly bonkers cars. The badges can all get stuck on teenagers' 116i's for all I care.
So what if BMW call their next car M3, M4 or Mavis? I'm far more interested in how the thing drives. As long as they don't call it the BMW Merkin or something similarly catastrophic, I'm unlikely to care.
The M135i shows that BMW can design build a car that is good to drive and doesn't come in at a stupid price. That's all I care about. (You don't have to look at it when you're inside the thing driving it!)
blearyeyedboy said:
I might need a flameproof suit for this...
I don't give a baboon's behind about BMW's M Division. I don't care about its heritage; I don't care about the "M3" name and I don't care if people think "M" is losing its way.
I care about the E30 M3, about the M Coupé and similarly bonkers cars. The badges can all get stuck on teenagers' 116i's for all I care.
So what if BMW call their next car M3, M4 or Mavis? I'm far more interested in how the thing drives. As long as they don't call it the BMW Merkin or something similarly catastrophic, I'm unlikely to care.
The M135i shows that BMW can design build a car that is good to drive and doesn't come in at a stupid price. That's all I care about. (You don't have to look at it when you're inside the thing driving it!)
That gives me far more hope for fun-to-drive BMW's for the future than this article gives me pessimism. The M135i is something tangible we can see and assess. While I mean no disrespect to the PH staffer who penned this, I believe the author to be overly pessimistic and judging BMW before we've even seen the products that are being moaned about.
Engineers have always wanted to build things that don't sell and don't add up. That's not Mr Robertson's fault and it's not his job to care-as previously said, if he doesn't do it he'll be sacked and someone else would do this instead. (Personal attacks about the chap's appearance are a rather low blow from internet warriors; poor show, fellows.) It's the engineers job to be inventive enough come up with an exciting proposition that makes sense to Mr Robertson's team. It's not Mr Robertson's team's job to sell anything the engineers come up with that won't turn a profit, or else there won't be a BMW at all.
I'll never be able to afford an M3/M4/M-whatever-number-you-choose. If I'm lucky, I might be able to afford an M135i and enjoy it for the good car it is.
What about BMW Mini? Oh, they've already done that one...
+1 Well said.I don't give a baboon's behind about BMW's M Division. I don't care about its heritage; I don't care about the "M3" name and I don't care if people think "M" is losing its way.
I care about the E30 M3, about the M Coupé and similarly bonkers cars. The badges can all get stuck on teenagers' 116i's for all I care.
So what if BMW call their next car M3, M4 or Mavis? I'm far more interested in how the thing drives. As long as they don't call it the BMW Merkin or something similarly catastrophic, I'm unlikely to care.
The M135i shows that BMW can design build a car that is good to drive and doesn't come in at a stupid price. That's all I care about. (You don't have to look at it when you're inside the thing driving it!)
That gives me far more hope for fun-to-drive BMW's for the future than this article gives me pessimism. The M135i is something tangible we can see and assess. While I mean no disrespect to the PH staffer who penned this, I believe the author to be overly pessimistic and judging BMW before we've even seen the products that are being moaned about.
Engineers have always wanted to build things that don't sell and don't add up. That's not Mr Robertson's fault and it's not his job to care-as previously said, if he doesn't do it he'll be sacked and someone else would do this instead. (Personal attacks about the chap's appearance are a rather low blow from internet warriors; poor show, fellows.) It's the engineers job to be inventive enough come up with an exciting proposition that makes sense to Mr Robertson's team. It's not Mr Robertson's team's job to sell anything the engineers come up with that won't turn a profit, or else there won't be a BMW at all.
I'll never be able to afford an M3/M4/M-whatever-number-you-choose. If I'm lucky, I might be able to afford an M135i and enjoy it for the good car it is.
What about BMW Mini? Oh, they've already done that one...
Marwood79 said:
Look at him... Robertson. As has been mentioned he looks like Blair. A cross between Blair and Murdoch. A summary of all that is over-thought about BMW.
This is the sort of st comment the writing style of the article has attracted.Completely unnecessary.
Suggest BMW strike PH of the interview list for a year.
BeirutTaxi said:
Nope won't sell. And this is why:
BMW's are every day cars, and they're bought be people who want a proper every day car.
Do I want:
A) Kids crying in the back, they can't sleep because the ambient noise is too high.
B) A harsh ride on the way home after a 12 hour day.
C) No stereo to listen to whilst I'm extremely bored in traffic.
D) A harsh seat to irritate me whilst I am creeping along, extremely bored in traffic.
E) A manual whilst I am creeping along, bored in traffic.
D) A higher price for light weight panels, which won't make any difference to me whilst I am bored in traffic.
A light weight car like the Elise exists for the thrills when you don't want an every day car, it's called... the Elise.
Added to that, a decent air con system that you want whilst stuck in boring traffic in the summer is as light and as cost effective as it can be. Trust me, when you're mass producing automotive parts you take the pennies out of items and leave no excess material (i.e. cost) in them.
Soft, automatic cars sell well and for a very good reason. Every day driving is, well, st. Comfort, silence of road noise and a great stereo to hear what I do want to listen to is what I want to help take away the monotony.
So you'd require a version with all the toys on it then! - Mmmmm BMW's are every day cars, and they're bought be people who want a proper every day car.
Do I want:
A) Kids crying in the back, they can't sleep because the ambient noise is too high.
B) A harsh ride on the way home after a 12 hour day.
C) No stereo to listen to whilst I'm extremely bored in traffic.
D) A harsh seat to irritate me whilst I am creeping along, extremely bored in traffic.
E) A manual whilst I am creeping along, bored in traffic.
D) A higher price for light weight panels, which won't make any difference to me whilst I am bored in traffic.
A light weight car like the Elise exists for the thrills when you don't want an every day car, it's called... the Elise.
Added to that, a decent air con system that you want whilst stuck in boring traffic in the summer is as light and as cost effective as it can be. Trust me, when you're mass producing automotive parts you take the pennies out of items and leave no excess material (i.e. cost) in them.
Soft, automatic cars sell well and for a very good reason. Every day driving is, well, s
t. Comfort, silence of road noise and a great stereo to hear what I do want to listen to is what I want to help take away the monotony.Edited by BeirutTaxi on Monday 10th December 13:30
.... If only I had thought this through!.....Oh! - hang on! - buy this version then:4rephill said:
They could still make an ///M LUX version for those who want all the toys.....
The clue was in the writing! 
aeropilot said:
DJRC said:
So if this results in the death of "M3 man" and 90% of "enthusiasts" leaving the BMW fold, does that mean that those of us who were brought up on M meaning Dieter Quester, E9 CSLs and turbo charged nutter cars can reclaim the brand whilst you all fk off elsewhere?
Sounds brilliant to me! When does this revolution start?
Count me in k off elsewhere?Sounds brilliant to me! When does this revolution start?
I'm glad I'm not the only one who knows something of BMW ///M history before the mid 1980's.
Olf said:
Marwood79 said:
Look at him... Robertson. As has been mentioned he looks like Blair. A cross between Blair and Murdoch. A summary of all that is over-thought about BMW.
This is the sort of st comment the writing style of the article has attracted.Completely unnecessary.
Suggest BMW strike PH of the interview list for a year.
I am surprised and disappointed that such personal attacks have been allowed to take place on the front page of this business. I have recommended this website to many friends and colleagues, on the basis that it's full of intellectual debate and in depth car reviews.
Seeing these posts is making me feel embarrassed to be part of the Pistonheads community. Which is a shame, given the help I've had from some of the members recently has been fantastic and very generous.
I sincerely hope that the moderation of threads improves. I'm certain that previous posts on the website with personal attacks have been removed before, with the recommendation to the poster that it doesn't form part of an intelligent debate.
It would be totally understandable if BMW declined further interviews and test cars.
Regards,
Matt
Edited by BeirutTaxi on Tuesday 11th December 19:08
This is a really poor article, I'm surprised it got published at all. I'm not sure what the writer's problem is with BMW, but his contempt for the company is so obvious he shouldn't have been asked to write the piece in the first place. Certainly attempting to demonise the BMW marketing exec is a poor show.
BeirutTaxi said:
Olf said:
Marwood79 said:
Look at him... Robertson. As has been mentioned he looks like Blair. A cross between Blair and Murdoch. A summary of all that is over-thought about BMW.
This is the sort of st comment the writing style of the article has attracted.Completely unnecessary.
Suggest BMW strike PH of the interview list for a year.
I am surprised and disappointed that such personal attacks have been allowed to take place on the front page of this business. I have recommended this website to many friends and colleagues, on the basis that it's full of intellectual debate and in depth car reviews.
Seeing these posts is making me feel embarrassed to be part of the Pistonheads community. Which is a shame, given the help I've had from some of the members recently has been fantastic and very generous.
I sincerely hope that the moderation of threads improves. I'm certain that previous posts on the website with personal attacks have been removed before, with the recommendation to the poster that it doesn't form part of an intelligent debate.
It would be totally understandable if BMW declined further interviews and test cars.
Regards,
Matt
Edited by BeirutTaxi on Tuesday 11th December 19:08
The article starts with the premise M has ended. Which begs the question, what is "M"?
M has not died, it has changed with time and will continue too. People said the 911 died when they took the fan off. Plainly this is not the case.
I don't think this article is about kicking Robertson in the nuts - it is more a reflection of the changing landscape of the car buying public for what is now a huge mainstream manufacturer. What we believe as car enthusiasts BMW should build and what the majority of BMW car buyers actually do want to buy are probably quite different.
This old chestnut of looking at the past and thinking the E30 M3 was the start of BMW's performance heritage is such bks and everything past that is dead and sterile - as it is naive to assume that BMW should look at the M badge as anything other than a marketing tool to sell lots of cars.
Isn't nostalgia a funny thing - whatever era you identify with - you see the path of progress to larger, heavier, safer cars with all the gizmos that most of the modern car BUYERS require to write the cheque - often with much greater performance and economy - and think all new cars are emasculated sterile bits of st driven by marketing. i had a proper performance bmw years ago - before M meant anything - a modified 2002 tii switched to 48's with a pretty hairy schrick 320?(cannot quite remember - it was a long time ago) degree cam and a heini mader head off an f2 engine with valves big enough to put your fists in. it had 180@wheels and had more or less nothing below 5000 rpm - ridiculous amounts of overlap. It weighed about 800 and something kgs and made a standard 2.3 m3 feel quite tame. Ok it was not standard - but a 2002 tii in it's day was a bloody good drivers car and was worthy of the M badge - BMW have made great driving cars for years before we all got in a state of what the M badge meant - go and drive a well sorted e9 csl.
Do i look at it nostalgically and think that the 2002 was a proper drivers car and something which makes my current work hack e90 m3 a bit sterile? Of course i do - but i have grown up and now don't get enthusiastic about doing a 200 mile journey in a noisy bucket seat tin can anymore - unless it is a pure toy for weekends. My e90 m3 revs to about the same as my old 2002 but is on a different planet performance wise - about the same fuel economy too(!) and makes for quite a rewarding drive. Amusing to think when it came out it was panned as having dead steering/too heavy/not a proper M car whatever that is - and yet with the advent of low revving turbo stuff in the future will probably re-evaluated as the last m3 etc.
BMW are indeed doing very well @ the moment - so who gives a fk what they do with the M badge - as stated above if it helps them flog a few cars which enables them to occasionally allow the engineers to produce something special for real enthusiasts - who are prepared to buy it when new and vote with their wallets - opposed to internet warrior keyboard wking - then great. Robertson probably recognises that although on car enthusiast forums we all talk about steering feel/wild cams/oversteer etc - the next younger generation of M3 type car BUYER OPPOSED TO FORUMITE probably gets more wood over whether the car has a good bluetooth connection. In any case for markets where there are scope for growth for their higher end cars like China - it is going to be a lot more lucrative putting M badges on SUV st - than making anything with driving appeal to a disinterested audience which truthfully has yet to really develop a truly sporting car culture yet. Lets hope the chinese buy lots of X3/X5/X6 cars with M badges on - so the skunkworks team get some development money to build commercially useless but eminently desirable CSL type stuff
Of course if BMW prostitute the tii badge and put it on some ersatz wannabe contrived stbox i will get...really shirty
This old chestnut of looking at the past and thinking the E30 M3 was the start of BMW's performance heritage is such b
ks and everything past that is dead and sterile - as it is naive to assume that BMW should look at the M badge as anything other than a marketing tool to sell lots of cars.Isn't nostalgia a funny thing - whatever era you identify with - you see the path of progress to larger, heavier, safer cars with all the gizmos that most of the modern car BUYERS require to write the cheque - often with much greater performance and economy - and think all new cars are emasculated sterile bits of s
t driven by marketing. i had a proper performance bmw years ago - before M meant anything - a modified 2002 tii switched to 48's with a pretty hairy schrick 320?(cannot quite remember - it was a long time ago) degree cam and a heini mader head off an f2 engine with valves big enough to put your fists in. it had 180@wheels and had more or less nothing below 5000 rpm - ridiculous amounts of overlap. It weighed about 800 and something kgs and made a standard 2.3 m3 feel quite tame. Ok it was not standard - but a 2002 tii in it's day was a bloody good drivers car and was worthy of the M badge - BMW have made great driving cars for years before we all got in a state of what the M badge meant - go and drive a well sorted e9 csl. Do i look at it nostalgically and think that the 2002 was a proper drivers car and something which makes my current work hack e90 m3 a bit sterile? Of course i do - but i have grown up and now don't get enthusiastic about doing a 200 mile journey in a noisy bucket seat tin can anymore - unless it is a pure toy for weekends. My e90 m3 revs to about the same as my old 2002 but is on a different planet performance wise - about the same fuel economy too(!) and makes for quite a rewarding drive. Amusing to think when it came out it was panned as having dead steering/too heavy/not a proper M car whatever that is - and yet with the advent of low revving turbo stuff in the future will probably re-evaluated as the last m3 etc.
BMW are indeed doing very well @ the moment - so who gives a f
k what they do with the M badge - as stated above if it helps them flog a few cars which enables them to occasionally allow the engineers to produce something special for real enthusiasts - who are prepared to buy it when new and vote with their wallets - opposed to internet warrior keyboard wking - then great. Robertson probably recognises that although on car enthusiast forums we all talk about steering feel/wild cams/oversteer etc - the next younger generation of M3 type car BUYER OPPOSED TO FORUMITE probably gets more wood over whether the car has a good bluetooth connection. In any case for markets where there are scope for growth for their higher end cars like China - it is going to be a lot more lucrative putting M badges on SUV st - than making anything with driving appeal to a disinterested audience which truthfully has yet to really develop a truly sporting car culture yet. Lets hope the chinese buy lots of X3/X5/X6 cars with M badges on - so the skunkworks team get some development money to build commercially useless but eminently desirable CSL type stuffOf course if BMW prostitute the tii badge and put it on some ersatz wannabe contrived s
tbox i will get...really shirtyChemical Ali said:
BeirutTaxi said:
Olf said:
Marwood79 said:
Look at him... Robertson. As has been mentioned he looks like Blair. A cross between Blair and Murdoch. A summary of all that is over-thought about BMW.
This is the sort of st comment the writing style of the article has attracted.Completely unnecessary.
Suggest BMW strike PH of the interview list for a year.
I am surprised and disappointed that such personal attacks have been allowed to take place on the front page of this business. I have recommended this website to many friends and colleagues, on the basis that it's full of intellectual debate and in depth car reviews.
Seeing these posts is making me feel embarrassed to be part of the Pistonheads community. Which is a shame, given the help I've had from some of the members recently has been fantastic and very generous.
I sincerely hope that the moderation of threads improves. I'm certain that previous posts on the website with personal attacks have been removed before, with the recommendation to the poster that it doesn't form part of an intelligent debate.
It would be totally understandable if BMW declined further interviews and test cars.
Regards,
Matt
Edited by BeirutTaxi on Tuesday 11th December 19:08
The article starts with the premise M has ended. Which begs the question, what is "M"?
M has not died, it has changed with time and will continue too. People said the 911 died when they took the fan off. Plainly this is not the case.
BeirutTaxi said:
As a reader, It's unpleasant to see nasty, hateful posts on this website. It makes for no pleasure in my daily reading of PH.
I am surprised and disappointed that such personal attacks have been allowed to take place on the front page of this business. I have recommended this website to many friends and colleagues, on the basis that it's full of intellectual debate and in depth car reviews.
Seeing these posts is making me feel embarrassed to be part of the Pistonheads community. Which is a shame, given the help I've had from some of the members recently has been fantastic and very generous.
I sincerely hope that the moderation of threads improves. I'm certain that previous posts on the website with personal attacks have been removed before, with the recommendation to the poster that it doesn't form part of an intelligent debate.
It would be totally understandable if BMW declined further interviews and test cars.
Regards,
Matt
JesustittyfI am surprised and disappointed that such personal attacks have been allowed to take place on the front page of this business. I have recommended this website to many friends and colleagues, on the basis that it's full of intellectual debate and in depth car reviews.
Seeing these posts is making me feel embarrassed to be part of the Pistonheads community. Which is a shame, given the help I've had from some of the members recently has been fantastic and very generous.
I sincerely hope that the moderation of threads improves. I'm certain that previous posts on the website with personal attacks have been removed before, with the recommendation to the poster that it doesn't form part of an intelligent debate.
It would be totally understandable if BMW declined further interviews and test cars.
Regards,
Matt
Edited by BeirutTaxi on Tuesday 11th December 19:08
kingchrist it's only the fking Internet. Get a grip!(Assuming your post wasn't tounge in cheek...)
Apologies - didn't mean for my previous post to bring down the tone... it was rushed, purile and immature. Ian Robertson has worked in senior positions in LR and RR and is clearly a career 'car man' as well as a Marketeer.
He deserves professional respect, as does the commercial success he is enjoying.
All that said I do lament the direction BMW's 'M' sub-brand has taken; they've chosen a 'mainstream-plus' path over special; why not use M as the means to introduce new drive-train tech to the brand? Keep it on the edge, low volume, keep it racing and keep it out of the mainstream...
He deserves professional respect, as does the commercial success he is enjoying.
All that said I do lament the direction BMW's 'M' sub-brand has taken; they've chosen a 'mainstream-plus' path over special; why not use M as the means to introduce new drive-train tech to the brand? Keep it on the edge, low volume, keep it racing and keep it out of the mainstream...
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