RE: The end of M
Discussion
A typical article written by journalists, for journalists. 99% of people, including most on here (!!!) don't do power slides and actually want to go fast in more safety and comfort.
If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
jeremy_spoke_in said:
M badge has always been a marketing tool, but up to maybe 5-10 years ago they had the cars to back it up. Great driving, understated looks... nowadays they will make very minor changes to bog standard BMWs and cover it in M badge bling. BMW is on a slippery slope in terms of their performance cars, i hope one day they remeber what M means to true drivers.
##I totally agree however they are probably looking at how easy it is to use the M badge on anything they want (116d M-Sport) and sell loads of it. Why go to the trouble of designing a new M3 when muppets are happy to buy something already designed but with an M badge on it.
Its a sad era for car enthusiasts. Not so long ago i was a teenager aspiring to own some of the great blue collar cars of the time ( Evo, NSX, M3, Supra, Cosworth), but where are these cars now?
The kids of today have nothing to aspire to that would help them get engaged in the car scene.
original guvnor said:
There is nothing wrong with getting misty-eyed over the passing of the old school M's that many of us own.
I don't necessarily buy the argument that it's the nasty politicians forcing BMW's hand either. Their competitors are still selling high-revving NA engines that are getting increasingly clean.
See, I don’t mind the demise of these n/a high revving engines either, as I’m old enough to remember the formative early of BMW Motorsport division starting with turbo M10/M12 engines in the European Touring Car Championship in the late 1960’s and through into the late 1970’s (not forgetting the F1 turbo era) and so see it as BMW ///M going back to its roots. For those of us of a ‘certain age’ BMW //M and turbocharging were synonymous.I don't necessarily buy the argument that it's the nasty politicians forcing BMW's hand either. Their competitors are still selling high-revving NA engines that are getting increasingly clean.
It was only the inability of the technology of the day to make them good enough for road use (and the change in motorsport regs of the early 1980’s) that gave rise to the evolution of the next generation of high tech n/a engines. So, I just see it as full circle evolution.
original guvnor said:
The other thing we need to remember is that these days Munich is increasingly looking to Moscow, Shanghai, Mumbai and not to Frankfurt, Paris, London. There is no "tradition" of M in these newer emerging markets to speak of, so some of the models we recoil in horror over (X5&6M's) have sold well over there.
Sadly, this is why BMW are pushing the M for Marketing, as it’s in China and other emerging markets that the demand for a ///M version of the X5/X6 has emerged and will continue to mean that the chances of BMW making ‘hardcore’ models for an ever decreasing number of European enthusiasts instead will diminish as the years go on.Hellbound said:
Now we'll have....
1M
M2
M2 Convertible (& Gran Coupe!?)
M3
M4
M4 Gran Coupe & Convertible
M5
M6
M6 Gran Coupe & Convertible
M7(Maybe)
M8(Hopefully)
As well as...
M135i
M235i
M335i
M435i
M545i(Or summat!)
M645i
Etc.
Plus thousands of M badges on every 318 and diesel repmobile. The badge is meaningless these days. Like Audi's S-Line nonsense. 1M
M2
M2 Convertible (& Gran Coupe!?)
M3
M4
M4 Gran Coupe & Convertible
M5
M6
M6 Gran Coupe & Convertible
M7(Maybe)
M8(Hopefully)
As well as...
M135i
M235i
M335i
M435i
M545i(Or summat!)
M645i
Etc.
I've got to say, what a terrible article. It wasn't very objective at all. Seems like writer and subject didn't get along... that's about it.
Nothing much more than that and a general one way mud slinging exercise that I'm glad to see most PHers can see for themselves.
Come on chaps, lets bring it back to what this site is all about and 99.99999% of the time is done so well.
Just for the record, it think the M cars are just moving with the times and BMW are reacting to customer feedback. Today's M customer is not looking for a race car experience on the daily commute (which is what these machines are going to be used for mainly, everyday drivers) they want something very fast, very reliable and something they can live with daily with all the mod-cons, tech and gadgets we take for granted in a high end luxury car. The misty eyed among us can easily get caught up in nostalgia about M cars that were light, fast and on the limit, but in today's regulated and often contradictory market, cars can't ever be 'like they used to'. And if you wanted a car like it was 10, 20 years ago... that's why there is a classified section!
Nothing much more than that and a general one way mud slinging exercise that I'm glad to see most PHers can see for themselves.
Come on chaps, lets bring it back to what this site is all about and 99.99999% of the time is done so well.
Just for the record, it think the M cars are just moving with the times and BMW are reacting to customer feedback. Today's M customer is not looking for a race car experience on the daily commute (which is what these machines are going to be used for mainly, everyday drivers) they want something very fast, very reliable and something they can live with daily with all the mod-cons, tech and gadgets we take for granted in a high end luxury car. The misty eyed among us can easily get caught up in nostalgia about M cars that were light, fast and on the limit, but in today's regulated and often contradictory market, cars can't ever be 'like they used to'. And if you wanted a car like it was 10, 20 years ago... that's why there is a classified section!
Andrew[MG] said:
A typical article written by journalists, for journalists. 99% of people, including most on here (!!!) don't do power slides and actually want to go fast in more safety and comfort.
If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
99% of the people on PH don't slide their car?If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
I think there's a 99% chance you're wrong there
The Noise said:
I've got to say, what a terrible article. It wasn't very objective at all. Seems like writer and subject didn't get along... that's about it.
Nothing much more than that and a general one way mud slinging exercise that I'm glad to see most PHers can see for themselves.
Come on chaps, lets bring it back to what this site is all about and 99.99999% of the time is done so well.
Just for the record, it think the M cars are just moving with the times and BMW are reacting to customer feedback. Today's M customer is not looking for a race car experience on the daily commute (which is what these machines are going to be used for mainly, everyday drivers) they want something very fast, very reliable and something they can live with daily with all the mod-cons, tech and gadgets we take for granted in a high end luxury car. The misty eyed among us can easily get caught up in nostalgia about M cars that were light, fast and on the limit, but in today's regulated and often contradictory market, cars can't ever be 'like they used to'. And if you wanted a car like it was 10, 20 years ago... that's why there is a classified section!
+1Nothing much more than that and a general one way mud slinging exercise that I'm glad to see most PHers can see for themselves.
Come on chaps, lets bring it back to what this site is all about and 99.99999% of the time is done so well.
Just for the record, it think the M cars are just moving with the times and BMW are reacting to customer feedback. Today's M customer is not looking for a race car experience on the daily commute (which is what these machines are going to be used for mainly, everyday drivers) they want something very fast, very reliable and something they can live with daily with all the mod-cons, tech and gadgets we take for granted in a high end luxury car. The misty eyed among us can easily get caught up in nostalgia about M cars that were light, fast and on the limit, but in today's regulated and often contradictory market, cars can't ever be 'like they used to'. And if you wanted a car like it was 10, 20 years ago... that's why there is a classified section!
Thats exactly it in a nutshell.
BMW as with all manufacturers have to evolve with the times and the regulations. The sooner we all realise that, the better. BMW M cars on sale today are very well tuned in with their target audience, which is as a high end luxury product. The reality is that the market for the authentic light weight racecar experience is very, very small. Sadly, Lotus is a fine example of how to make a hash-up from a business persepctive....BMW M is perhaps the way it should be done.
RichTBiscuit said:
Andrew[MG] said:
A typical article written by journalists, for journalists. 99% of people, including most on here (!!!) don't do power slides and actually want to go fast in more safety and comfort.
If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
99% of the people on PH don't slide their car?If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
I think there's a 99% chance you're wrong there
Driving fast in safety and comfort yes, not being moved fast in safety and comfort by a car driving itself, thats a pain worse than death.
As for saying people who want hardcore should be buying stripped out specials, the M3 GTR was and remains a bit much for most peoples bank balance, but is in the general vein of what we want (minus the DSG). Either way it really shouldnt exist....if the super-ultra-will-shag-your-mum-hardcore model of 3 series is so diluted that a hardcore version of itself is required, its a very sorry situation indeed.
As I side note I believe this website was started to praise at the altar of the lightweight, N/A and permenently sideways god of TVR... which defines special and hardcore to me. Not allowed one over here without throwing big money at registration/paperwork though. Still, one day
RichTBiscuit said:
Andrew[MG] said:
A typical article written by journalists, for journalists. 99% of people, including most on here (!!!) don't do power slides and actually want to go fast in more safety and comfort.
If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
99% of the people on PH don't slide their car?If all the people who complain about how M cars are getting less hardcore actually wanted hardcore, then they would by stripped out specials, Caterhams or build their own.
I think there's a 99% chance you're wrong there
Paul Rosche is the missing link in this thread IMHO.
I don't know why he's more of legend in Germany than over here, but the high revving NA BMW engine was his baby from the late 60's, along with BMW's race engines. The engines mourned by the article are all under his influence and philosophy (including the magnificent V12 in the McLaren F1 - which can feasibly lay claim to the greatest road car engine of all time).
I know he retired in '99, so the e46, e60 and e92 units aren't officially under his supervision, but were clearly built by those who shared his thinking. I'm sure BMW will continue to build 'great' engines, but the industry philosophy has changed (witness McLaren's recent woeful statements about never building another v12). Personally, I'm old, and my formative years were spent loving these powerplants, so I'll always think of it as the golden age of engine design, I'm sure others will disagree though.
So, PH, if you're going to mourn the NA M-engine, a decent profile of Rosche would be a fitting way to do it. What do you say?
I don't know why he's more of legend in Germany than over here, but the high revving NA BMW engine was his baby from the late 60's, along with BMW's race engines. The engines mourned by the article are all under his influence and philosophy (including the magnificent V12 in the McLaren F1 - which can feasibly lay claim to the greatest road car engine of all time).
I know he retired in '99, so the e46, e60 and e92 units aren't officially under his supervision, but were clearly built by those who shared his thinking. I'm sure BMW will continue to build 'great' engines, but the industry philosophy has changed (witness McLaren's recent woeful statements about never building another v12). Personally, I'm old, and my formative years were spent loving these powerplants, so I'll always think of it as the golden age of engine design, I'm sure others will disagree though.
So, PH, if you're going to mourn the NA M-engine, a decent profile of Rosche would be a fitting way to do it. What do you say?
k-ink said:
Plus thousands of M badges on every 318 and diesel repmobile. The badge is meaningless these days. Like Audi's S-Line nonsense.
I think buyers are intelligent enough to look at the actual car and not focus entirely on the badge. They also know the difference between something that's M Sport and model with a proper M designation. The world is a very different place now, back in 1987 BMW didn't have to worry about markets in India, Russia, China and South America (and even parts of Europe).
That is precisely why M cars are so diverse. Buyers now span the globe and BMW has to build M cars for lots of different conditions while catering to many varied and increasingly discerning tastes.
RichTBiscuit said:
An excellent article - Nice one
BMW should not simply be blindly listening to the market - the customer often doesn't really know what they want. BMW should be listening and GUIDING customers into cars they want to buy and suit the 'M' philosophy.
Yes, I think the same. BMW's M Division is what is it, in terms of Brand value, because of the more extreme nature of the cars they engineered, and unfortunately they are no-longer making the type of cars that made M great. However, as it has already been pointed out, M has been going down this route gradually, not suddenly over night. It is also a business and has to make money so if tastes and market requirements change, M has to move as well or otherwise it will simply die out.BMW should not simply be blindly listening to the market - the customer often doesn't really know what they want. BMW should be listening and GUIDING customers into cars they want to buy and suit the 'M' philosophy.
The way I see it, is that BMW M (and BMW in general) have become too successful and have a too broad a customer base which BMW now tries to please to maintain the high sale volumes. However, you cannot please everyone all the time and the general result is to produce something blander and therefore threaten the core brand values.
sanctum said:
Do we really hark back to cars which are hard to drive fast, require an ammount of effort to keep on the road and which need a certain skill, ability and deft touch at the wheel to keep pointing in the right direction? Of course we do. But most people don't want to learn to drive, they just want bragging rights and stupidly fast, and if the car deigns to leave the road or cause a collision, clearly it was the fault of the engineers for not making it idiot proof!
Although I sympathise with the sentiment above the problem is that when BMW made the E30 M3 or other earlier M cars they didn't choose to make them more challenging to drive (or rather more challenging compared to other cars available at that time): the technology simply didn't exist at that point. The cars were made with the top tech available...it is just that the technology wasn't as sophisticated as today. I also question the assumption that the people that bought M cars new 10, 20 or 30 years ago were fundamentally different from the people that buy them today. They were always halo cars. The difference is perhaps that there are so many more people buying M badged cars because of the choice available.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff