RE: 2015 Honda Civic Type R: the engineers talk

[Oddball RS]

HighwayStar said:

Oddball RS said:

We already know Honda is aiming for a new front-wheel drive 'ring record with the next Civic Type R. But is that bad news for those of us without a year ticket to the Nordschleife?


Thats got to be the worst reason to build a hot hatch yet, Sorry but it does not result in a decent UK road car.

What wrong with some people, do you just pick up on/ remember the bits you don't like? Here, in the same article!!!

"All this talk about the 'ring is beginning to make the B-road in our soul a little nervous, though. But Hasshi and Yamamoto are quick to acknowledge the UK is the biggest market for Type R in Europe; it will be built here, at Swindon, and as a consequence it will also be tested here. This is a relief."

So, why would it not result in a good UK road car???? None of this has hurt Renault's road cars has it? And they're not even developed on UK roads!!!

Edited by HighwayStar on Tuesday 11th December 10:46

If by some people you mean me? I will tell you whats wrong, the silly ring time means nothing to a good road car, but it is PR gold, therefore it is a target and will be achieved, and as a result it will compromise the car to 'nice fast bits of dual carriageway' as a counter you offer that the car will be tested here? Can you ever see Autocar/Express leading on the front cover with that? No, therefore its a through away line.

And someone else said the ring is as rough as our roads? really you should visit Sheffield, the surface of the moon is in better condition.

I stand by what i said originally achieving this aim will not make the car better.

[Oddball RS]

HighwayStar said:

Oddball RS said:

We already know Honda is aiming for a new front-wheel drive 'ring record with the next Civic Type R. But is that bad news for those of us without a year ticket to the Nordschleife?


Thats got to be the worst reason to build a hot hatch yet, Sorry but it does not result in a decent UK road car.

What wrong with some people, do you just pick up on/ remember the bits you don't like? Here, in the same article!!!

"All this talk about the 'ring is beginning to make the B-road in our soul a little nervous, though. But Hasshi and Yamamoto are quick to acknowledge the UK is the biggest market for Type R in Europe; it will be built here, at Swindon, and as a consequence it will also be tested here. This is a relief."

So, why would it not result in a good UK road car???? None of this has hurt Renault's road cars has it? And they're not even developed on UK roads!!!

Edited by HighwayStar on Tuesday 11th December 10:46

[rb5er]

kambites said:

rb5er said:

otolith said:

A fast ring time alone does not make me interested in a car.

Do you really think that a car that is very quick on the Ring is likely to be really boring on the road?

You got many/any examples of this phenomena?

"Boring" is pushing it, but there are plenty of cars which are very fast around a circuit which are a bit... aloof to be much fun on the road. Any of the recent big heavy powerful Germans would probably be good examples.

Of course this is very unlikely to suffer from that, though.

You suggesting an M5 or M3 is no fun? I`m not sure what cars you are suggesting were aimed at ring lap times. RS4 perhaps?

The BMW`s are too big and heavy for my liking as a pure fun car although these cars can be very much fun even on the road but like you say this will be very unlikely to suffer from such bloatedness. Audis are almost always pretty blunt tools but the Honda is likely to be very sharp to drive.

Yep they are aiming at Ring times with this car as it sells cars but also it generally makes for a great fast road car as the Ring is certainly no glass smooth racetrack.

[otolith]

rb5er said:

otolith said:

A fast ring time alone does not make me interested in a car.

Do you really think that a car that is very quick on the Ring is likely to be really boring on the road?

Boring? Possibly, though that isn't really what would bother me. Uninteresting would bother me, and I'm afraid simply being fast isn't enough to make a car interesting. It helps, but it isn't enough.

rb5er said:

You got many/any examples of this phenomena?

Big fast German barges. Not interested.

[rb5er]

otolith said:

rb5er said:

otolith said:

A fast ring time alone does not make me interested in a car.

Do you really think that a car that is very quick on the Ring is likely to be really boring on the road?

Boring? Possibly, though that isn't really what would bother me. Uninteresting would bother me, and I'm afraid simply being fast isn't enough to make a car interesting. It helps, but it isn't enough.

rb5er said:

You got many/any examples of this phenomena?

Big fast German barges. Not interested.

Boring? Unlikely. Interesting? Very likely.

You got any examples of boring fast Ring cars? It seems not.

[kambites]

rb5er said:

You suggesting an M5 or M3 is no fun? I`m not sure what cars you are suggesting were aimed at ring lap times. RS4 perhaps?

Ah, now your'e changing the goal posts. You didn't say "aimed at ring lap time". You said that achieve fast lap times.

I was thinking things like the RS6/E-class AMG/M5/SL/whatever... even the 996 turbo I found rather sterile on the road. But no, none of them were really aimed at the ring, as such.

However the point stands that being fast does not, in itself, make a car fun.

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 11th December 20:34

[otolith]

rb5er said:

Boring? Unlikely. Interesting? Very likely.

You got any examples of boring fast Ring cars? It seems not.

For instance - I'm looking at this list. I would quite like an Exige S, which is quite a long way down the list at 8:25.

Scanning quickly, above it are E46 and E92 M3s, a couple of WRX STIs, some Evos, some AMG C-classes, a couple of quick Meganes, three generations of Nissan GTR, all with quicker ring times, none of which I would take over the Exige, none of which in fact I have any ambition to own at all. The ring time is completely irrelevant. Does the Megane Trophy's impressive time make me want one? No, I just don't give a toss, I don't want that kind of car.

[rb5er]

kambites said:

However the point stands that being fast does not, in itself, make a car fun.

Nope indeed it does not but it certainly makes their chances of being fun and interesting higher and Hondas are rarely boringly blunt tools. Therefore this is likely to be a hoot and a fast one at that, which is why I find the criticism of Honda chasing Ring lap times odd as the ring is very much like a fast road and much unlike a proper smooth racetrack.

The Nurburgring has plenty of rough sections, undulations, cambers and turns as well as long straight sections etc and so I think its rare that a car that does really well/best in class on the Ring is mundane or boring on the road.

[kambites]

Hmm, we'll see, but I'd be genuinely (and pleasantly) surprised if it's not complete rubbish, going by that interview.

I doubt they care what I think, though. I'm not the target market.

[rb5er]

otolith said:

rb5er said:

Boring? Unlikely. Interesting? Very likely.

You got any examples of boring fast Ring cars? It seems not.

For instance - I'm looking at this list. I would quite like an Exige S, which is quite a long way down the list at 8:25.

Scanning quickly, above it are E46 and E92 M3s, a couple of WRX STIs, some Evos, some AMG C-classes, a couple of quick Meganes, three generations of Nissan GTR, all with quicker ring times, none of which I would take over the Exige, none of which in fact I have any ambition to own at all. The ring time is completely irrelevant. Does the Megane Trophy's impressive time make me want one? No, I just don't give a toss, I don't want that kind of car.

Yep the Exige may not be the fastest and it may be the most fun but you have listed a load of amazing cars that are great fun given any road in the World. Point I`m making is that this car is likely to be great and is being slated for the fact that it might be in company alongside such excellent cars.

The exige is so much fun as it is very low weight, very compact, something a car with 4 seats cannot achieve, so come one ... be realistic and compare apples with apples.

[otolith]

What I'm getting at is that having a faster ring time is not a significant factor for me in choosing one car over another.

[motor mad]

I'm sure the Honda engineers will pull out all the stops. They have a lot to live up to after the B series and K20 engines.

[Guvernator]

rb5er said:

I find the criticism of Honda chasing Ring lap times odd

The point is that while the Ring might be a challenging surface the mere fact that they are chasing lap times at all is the real problem IMO. People do not chase lap times when they are driving on the road and in order to make a car go quickly over a lap, it has to have good suspension control. Unfortunately most manufacturers don't seem to have the knowledge to be able control a cars movement while still making it compliant enough to not be a pain or they simply can't be bothered as just sticking on some stiffer springs is much easier. This makes for a fast lapping car but not necessarily a very pleasant road car.

Drive any of the big three German brands sporting lineup to find a perfect example of this. It's not personal bias either, I drive a BMW and even I can admit that the ride is by far the worst aspect of the car. Did it really need to be that way when it spends 95% of it's time on the road and not chasing lap times? I'd rather loose a few nths of handling finesse if it meant my teeth weren't rattled loose every time I went over a pot whole or better yet, they could take a leaf out of someone like Lotus book and actually design suspension that works properly on the road and track.

[rb5er]

Guvernator said:

rb5er said:

I find the criticism of Honda chasing Ring lap times odd

The point is that while the Ring might be a challenging surface the mere fact that they are chasing lap times at all is the real problem IMO. People do not chase lap times when they are driving on the road and in order to make a car go quickly over a lap, it has to have good suspension control. Unfortunately most manufacturers don't seem to have the knowledge to be able control a cars movement while still making it compliant enough to not be a pain or they simply can't be bothered as just sticking on some stiffer springs is much easier. This makes for a fast lapping car but not necessarily a very pleasant road car.

Drive any of the big three German brands sporting lineup to find a perfect example of this. It's not personal bias either, I drive a BMW and even I can admit that the ride is by far the worst aspect of the car. Did it really need to be that way when it spends 95% of it's time on the road and not chasing lap times? I'd rather loose a few nths of handling finesse if it meant my teeth weren't rattled loose every time I went over a pot whole or better yet, they could take a leaf out of someone like Lotus book and actually design suspension that works properly on the road and track.

Again comparing a 1700kg barge with a 1100kg lotus. Making compliant suspension which is also sporty on 2 cars so disimilar is a completely different thing. Perhaps compare apples with apples and tell me what car of similar size to yours and just as sporty in its handling characteristics has a much more compliant but just as sporty ride in your book?

The Renault Sports excel on the ring and yet do not get slated for rock hard suspension therefore this problem is not a given and may never exist at all. The ride may be hard but I doubt it can ever be any worse than the last CTR especially on the silly 19inch alloys and that car was not chasing Ring lap times.

Yes laptimes are not the be all and end all but it is a good pointer that the car will be quick and driver focussed.

Again, making a car that is fast on the Ring is likely to make for a car that is great on the road, as are all the examples so far given.

[wheedler]

Back to topic, what are the chances it will start at 18k?

[Crafty_]

wheedler said:

Back to topic, what are the chances it will start at 18k?

Can't see list being anywhere near that.

Look at the price of the Focus ST, Astra VXR, RenaultSport Megane, all in the same class, all £25k+

High spec "super minis" are £20k+ (Cilo 200 & Corsa VXR Nurburgring)

[kambites]

Crafty_ said:

wheedler said:

Back to topic, what are the chances it will start at 18k?

Can't see list being anywhere near that.

Look at the price of the Focus ST, Astra VXR, RenaultSport Megane, all in the same class, all £25k+

High spec "super minis" are £20k+ (Cilo 200 & Corsa VXR Nurburgring)

I'd imagine a list price of somewhere north of 25k and an average specced up price starting with a 3 before discounts.

[J4SON88]

I like the sound of all these small capacity, forced induction hot hatches. Its like the late 80's- early 90's all over again. An era that produced (probably) the bets hot hatches there are.

I'm looking forward to this.

[Mr2Mike]

Crafty_ said:

Astra GTC (all models inc. VXR AFAIK) have a form of watts linkage too.
...

That's interesting, I'd not seen the newer Astra suspension up till now. As you say, this is likely to reduce toe changes caused by bush deflection.

[Mastodon2]

J4SON88 said:

I like the sound of all these small capacity, forced induction hot hatches. Its like the late 80's- early 90's all over again. An era that produced (probably) the bets hot hatches there are.

I'm looking forward to this.

Except the cars aren't small, cheap or raw anymore, the EP3 and last generation of RS Clio were probably the last old school hot hatches. These new cars will be nothing like the ones of the late 80s / early 90s.