RE: 2015 Honda Civic Type R: the engineers talk

[LuS1fer]

You're not kidding and it's all down to weight.
My old R5 GT Turbo had 115hp (an alleged 150 with a Superchip I had fitted but I doubt it) and weighed 1885lb (855kg)
My current Fiesta ST has 150hp but weighs 2507lb (1137kg).

No wonder the R5GTT is still recalled by me as being very quick with lightning steering response, even on the 195/55 x 13 wheels and tyres.
Less weight means smaller brakes and lighter everything else. I'd still buy one in preference to a modern "safe hatch".

[otolith]

Mastodon2 said:

Except the cars aren't small, cheap or raw anymore, the EP3 and last generation of RS Clio were probably the last old school hot hatches. These new cars will be nothing like the ones of the late 80s / early 90s.

And those cars were already old-fashioned (in a good way) when they were new.

[danp]

I can't help thinking we need the hot hatch equivalent of a GT 86 instead - less power, less grip and fun to chuck about

kambites said:

I think you can still get this to an extent from the next size of car down.

what cars were you thinking of, out of interest?

[kambites]

danp said:

kambites said:

I think you can still get this to an extent from the next size of car down.

what cars were you thinking of, out of interest?

I was thinking of things like the Panda 100hp.

[otolith]

danp said:

I can't help thinking we need the hot hatch equivalent of a GT 86 instead - less power, less grip and fun to chuck about

"wah, wah, it's too slow, I can't drag-race diesels, I have to use the gearbox, wah, wah"

[LuS1fer]

kambites said:

danp said:

kambites said:

I think you can still get this to an extent from the next size of car down.

what cars were you thinking of, out of interest?

I was thinking of things like the Panda 100hp.

..and Suzuki Swift Sport.

[kambites]

LuS1fer said:

..and Suzuki Swift Sport.

Yeah, that sort of thing.

[Ghostbhp]

tbh after owning a Corsa VXR and then buying a FN2 ... I reckon if they get the weight down a lot and shorten the wheel base it will be a fairly fun and "chuckable" car and less like a barge (the FN2 feels like a big car)

The FN2 is way too stiff and has an aweful ride... What did Mugen do... made it softer with their own dampers and springs. Hopefully Honda will have taken this into consideration.

Road tax on a FN2 is £270 a year ... nowhere near £480 that Range rovers pay.

Honda have effectivly killed their Type R Brand by moving away from NA engines, so should come up with a new brand Type T maybe (Turbo) or an edition with a dump valve called the Type C (Chav or a related word)

[xRIEx]

Ghostbhp said:

tbh after owning a Corsa VXR and then buying a FN2 ... I reckon if they get the weight down a lot and shorten the wheel base it will be a fairly fun and "chuckable" car and less like a barge (the FN2 feels like a big car)

Which would involve big costs developing a whole new chassis - why would they do it? The point of a hot hatch is a manufacturer makes a sporty version of an existing model, so minimal extra costs getting it to production.

How much weight would count as 'a lot'?

Ghostbhp said:

Honda have effectivly killed their Type R Brand by moving away from NA engines, so should come up with a new brand Type T maybe (Turbo)

Thanks for the abbreviation, I don't think we'd have worked it out

Ghostbhp said:

or an edition with a dump valve called the Type C (Chav or a related word)

I doubt they'd do a model without a dump valve, are they going to boost a 1.6 to 300bhp and keep it driveable without some sort of dump valve?

Edited by xRIEx on Wednesday 12th December 14:13

[David1976]

This is very sad news.
I was pretty sure that Honda would break with modern tradition and use a N.A. engine.

Another turbo hatch with big power, big grip, incredible lap times and no doubt a big bodykit...

[JonnyVTEC]

xRIEx said:

[Which would involve big costs developing a whole new chassis - why would they do it? The point of a hot hatch is a manufacturer makes a sporty version of an existing model, so minimal extra costs getting it to production.

Or just use the CR-Z chassis... which is a Insight chassis shortened.... which was a Jazz Chassis lengthened.... which they have just put multilink rear on the EV variant.

Sorry, which bit requires 'whole new'?

[otolith]

I think the point is that once the exercise goes beyond essentially slapping a big engine in a shopping car, economies of scale are lost and costs start to ramp up.

[bigaoi]

FN2 ride isn't as bad as it's made out to be.

[Art0ir]

Honda said:

...power isn't everything. Where the Nurburging's concerned... it's actually torque that's key.

Who gives a fk? Christ I hate marketing departments.

Edited by Art0ir on Wednesday 12th December 21:53

[Mastodon2]

bigaoi said:

FN2 ride isn't as bad as it's made out to be.

That is what I thought. I've not been in one with the 19" Rage alloys (that hardly anyone bothered to spec, because they looked crap compared to the standard 18") but I didn't find the ride bad at all. Hard, but not awful, though I accept some people want a soft-roader kind of ride. A Jag it ain't, but it didn't feel much different to a friend's diesel Civic, which is a 2.2L somethingorother spec.

It certainly didn't have trouble keeping it's wheels in contact with the road, and despite the extra 60kgs over the EP3 imo it didn't feel any slower, from the passenger seat at least, though obviously as a passenger you can't get first hand info on quite how it feels to drive compared to the EP3. Honda dropped the VTEC engagement point to 5300rpm compared to the EP3s 5800rpm, which makes it feel a bit less racy but does go some way to at least keeping the straight line performance fairly similar. I think the FN2 gets an unfair amount of stick tbh. I love the cabin on them and when my EP3 goes the way I think I could do a lot worse than an FN2 to replace it, even if they are a little less road racer and a little more GT.

[bigaoi]

Yes, I would imagine (not knowing the EP3 first-hand), a slightly more refined version of the same recipe. Physically a bit wider though, would have been good to keep to the EP3 dimensions. I agree you'd be nuts to go for the 19" wheels. An FN2 is certainly not spine-shattering like folklore suggests, "controlled and tight" is probably a good description. Either the later ones were tweaked ever so slightly to be less mental, or maybe not everything on the internet is true.

Edited by bigaoi on Wednesday 12th December 21:58

Edited by bigaoi on Wednesday 12th December 22:07

[otolith]

Mastodon2 said:

A Jag it ain't, but it didn't feel much different to a friend's diesel Civic, which is a 2.2L somethingorother spec.

Yeah, but all models of that generation of Civic got slated for ride quality. My EP3's ride quality was crap, but the boggo civics of that generation were fine.

[Escort Si-130]

PMSL at the picture (New turbocharged VTEC just kicked in?*) What would it be like if you nitro'd it then.

[rb5er]

Mastodon2 said:

bigaoi said:

FN2 ride isn't as bad as it's made out to be.

That is what I thought. I've not been in one with the 19" Rage alloys (that hardly anyone bothered to spec, because they looked crap compared to the standard 18") but I didn't find the ride bad at all.

I disagree massively. I friend had a bronze FN2 in 2008 with the 19`s and the ride was worse than any car I have been in in my life, crashy and rock hard, just terrible. I drove it extensively and it was quick and revvy as expected with very direct if a bit lifeless steering but I much preferred my Focus ST in every single way.

I liked the interior too, great seats and a spaceage dash with integrated sat nav etc but the rest of the car was quite lacklustre.

[kambites]

That's the problem - these days Honda's competitors are producing hot hatches that both ride and handle better than the last Civic Type-R on typical British roads. They need to catch up in at least one regard and probably both, if they're going to sell.