RE: 2015 Honda Civic Type R: the engineers talk

[LuS1fer]

needabike said:

Just don't call it a Type R as they are N/A.
It's time to bring back the VTi.

Why not annoy renault and call it the Civic Type R5 GT Turbo.

[P4ROT]

RIP in other words...

[kambites]

After_Shock said:

Oddball RS said:

Thats got to be the worst reason to build a hot hatch yet, Sorry but it does not result in a decent UK road car.

Hasnt done the meganne any harm tho has it?

Was the Meganne primarily designed to produce a good 'ring time? I'm not convinced.

[ant leigh]

kambites said:

After_Shock said:

Oddball RS said:

Thats got to be the worst reason to build a hot hatch yet, Sorry but it does not result in a decent UK road car.

Hasnt done the meganne any harm tho has it?

Was the Meganne primarily designed to produce a good 'ring time? I'm not convinced.

I would agree
The Megane is a very capable road car. The suspension is very firm but I haven't had an issue with it. My take is the 'ring time is a consequence of its excellent road handling, not the reverse.

[HighwayStar]

Oddball RS said:

We already know Honda is aiming for a new front-wheel drive 'ring record with the next Civic Type R. But is that bad news for those of us without a year ticket to the Nordschleife?


Thats got to be the worst reason to build a hot hatch yet, Sorry but it does not result in a decent UK road car.

What wrong with some people, do you just pick up on/ remember the bits you don't like? Here, in the same article!!!

"All this talk about the 'ring is beginning to make the B-road in our soul a little nervous, though. But Hasshi and Yamamoto are quick to acknowledge the UK is the biggest market for Type R in Europe; it will be built here, at Swindon, and as a consequence it will also be tested here. This is a relief."

So, why would it not result in a good UK road car???? None of this has hurt Renault's road cars has it? And they're not even developed on UK roads!!!

Edited by HighwayStar on Tuesday 11th December 10:46

[Kong]

Type R models have always been more towards the hardcore end of the market, if you want a car to drive to the shops in comfort then buy a GTI instead.

Maybe if they were targeting the slowest ever 'ring time then some people on here might actually be happy

[kambites]

HighwayStar said:

What wrong with some people, do you just pick up on/ remember the bits you don't like? Here, in the same article!!!

"All this talk about the 'ring is beginning to make the B-road in our soul a little nervous, though. But Hasshi and Yamamoto are quick to acknowledge the UK is the biggest market for Type R in Europe; it will be built here, at Swindon, and as a consequence it will also be tested here. This is a relief."

So, why would it not result in a good UK road car????

Because by the sounds of it they're sticking with what it known to be a rubbish rear suspension configuration?

[kambites]

Kong said:

Maybe if they were targeting the slowest ever 'ring time then some people on here might actually be happy

I think people would be happy if they set out to produce the best road car they could and never took the thing anywhere near the blood 'ring.

[Chrisw666]

kambites said:

I think people would be happy if they set out to produce the best road car they could and never took the thing anywhere near the blood 'ring.

[Mastodon2]

It saddens me to hear that they are so interested in dumping as much torque as they can in there, I'm sure diesel-esque power delivery is something every Honda fan has been wishing for. I'm struggling to see why this car deserves a Type R badge, it might be a quick Honda, it will without doubt be their quickest FWD car ever, but without a proper VTEC engine I think it will struggle to win the hearts and minds of those familiar with the engines that put Honda at the top of the field for hot hatch fun in the past.

I know it's not Honda's fault they had to pull the NA VTEC engines, and the Type R badge is really being trotted out here as a marketing excercise, but imo I'd rather take 200bhp, proper VTEC surge towards the redline, the pin-sharp throttle response and the truly incredible noises of the older engines, than have 300bhp and a shedload of torque from a quiet, flat, low revving turbo. Honda certainly have their work cut out to make a turbo engine that does not fall into the pitfalls of many turbo engines on the hot hatch scene.

[Prof Prolapse]

Chrisw666 said:

kambites said:

I think people would be happy if they set out to produce the best road car they could and never took the thing anywhere near the blood 'ring.

+2

I'd just like them to make something that doesn't prolapse my disc when I take it out in search of their increasingly irrelevant ring times.

It's a hot hatch for goodness sake, not a GTR.

[Kong]

kambites said:

Kong said:

Maybe if they were targeting the slowest ever 'ring time then some people on here might actually be happy

I think people would be happy if they set out to produce the best road car they could and never took the thing anywhere near the blood 'ring.

I think you have been listening too much to James May. Having driven the 'ring many times I don't see a problem, it's not that smooth or straight - you couldn't take a standard F1 car around it for example. Seems a perfectly good place to test the limits of a performance road car.

[Guvernator]

Kong said:

kambites said:

Kong said:

Maybe if they were targeting the slowest ever 'ring time then some people on here might actually be happy

I think people would be happy if they set out to produce the best road car they could and never took the thing anywhere near the blood 'ring.

I think you have been listening too much to James May. Having driven the 'ring many times I don't see a problem, it's not that smooth or straight - you couldn't take a standard F1 car around it for example. Seems a perfectly good place to test the limits of a performance road car.

It certainly isn't perfectly straight or smooth but it's still a damn site better than a lot of the UK's road network, besides that's not really the point. A car designed to get "the fastest ring time" will by it's very nature have to be a compromised road car.

As I mentioned in another thread "A test driver completely focused on trying to beat a lap time isn't going to say, "make the car more compliant as the car is too stiff on that corner and it's unpleasant to drive", they are going to say, "can you stiffen up the car a bit more as I couldn't fully commit in that corner and I'm sure I could shave a few tenths off". This is the problem with developing a car to beat the Ring.

[Captain Muppet]

Guvernator said:

Captain Muppet said:

From a thread yesterday:

Captain Muppet said:

None of my local B-roads are anything like as rough as the Karussell.

You mentioned this in a post yesterday and I was just as puzzled by it then. Not meaning to sound obtuse but what does one admittedly pretty rough corner at the ring have to do with building a decent road car\hot hatch?

It has as little to do with building a decent road cars as all the other corners at the 'ring. Or the straights.

However it does highlight that pounding round the ring lap after lap does have a comfort component, and doesn't neccessarily lead to cars with are unusable on roads.

[kambites]

Kong said:

kambites said:

Kong said:

Maybe if they were targeting the slowest ever 'ring time then some people on here might actually be happy

I think people would be happy if they set out to produce the best road car they could and never took the thing anywhere near the blood 'ring.

I think you have been listening too much to James May. Having driven the 'ring many times I don't see a problem, it's not that smooth or straight - you couldn't take a standard F1 car around it for example. Seems a perfectly good place to test the limits of a performance road car.

You completely miss my point - even if the 'ring was identical to a typical UK road, I don't want my road car to be fast, I want it to be fun! The two things are at best largely unrelated, at worse mutually contradictory past a certain point (although I doubt they'll go that far).

Edited by kambites on Tuesday 11th December 11:15

[rossub]

Mastodon2 said:

It saddens me to hear that they are so interested in dumping as much torque as they can in there, I'm sure diesel-esque power delivery is something every Honda fan has been wishing for. I'm struggling to see why this car deserves a Type R badge, it might be a quick Honda, it will without doubt be their quickest FWD car ever, but without a proper VTEC engine I think it will struggle to win the hearts and minds of those familiar with the engines that put Honda at the top of the field for hot hatch fun in the past.

I know it's not Honda's fault they had to pull the NA VTEC engines, and the Type R badge is really being trotted out here as a marketing excercise, but imo I'd rather take 200bhp, proper VTEC surge towards the redline, the pin-sharp throttle response and the truly incredible noises of the older engines, than have 300bhp and a shedload of torque from a quiet, flat, low revving turbo. Honda certainly have their work cut out to make a turbo engine that does not fall into the pitfalls of many turbo engines on the hot hatch scene.

How do you know it will be low-revving? If Subaru were able to make the flat 4 turbo rev to 8k from the mid nineties onwards, perhaps Honda will do the same now?

[Kong]

Guvernator said:

A car designed to get "the fastest ring time" will by it's very nature have to be a compromised road car.

To an extent but so are all cars. Will this be stripped out? Probably not. Will this have semi-slicks? Probably not. So it's obviously not the only goal.

[M@1975]

Shame, one of the few jap FWD cars I actually like, non turbo and nicely balanced for FWD, I think slapping a tubby on it is a bad move but inevitable, we are slowly seeing the death of non forced induction sports cars..

[Kong]

kambites said:

Kong said:

kambites said:

Kong said:

Maybe if they were targeting the slowest ever 'ring time then some people on here might actually be happy

I think people would be happy if they set out to produce the best road car they could and never took the thing anywhere near the blood 'ring.

I think you have been listening too much to James May. Having driven the 'ring many times I don't see a problem, it's not that smooth or straight - you couldn't take a standard F1 car around it for example. Seems a perfectly good place to test the limits of a performance road car.

You completely miss my point - even if the 'ring was identical to a typical UK road, I don't want my road car to be fast, I want it to be fun! The two things are at best largely unrelated, at worse mutually contradictory past a certain point.

Well the fastest road-legal car around the ring is the Radical SR8, so by your logic that would a boring car to drive..

[kambites]

Kong said:

Well the fastest road-legal car around the ring is the Radical SR8, so by your logic that would a boring car to drive..

Where did I use the word "boring"?

I'm not worried about this ending up boring, I'm worried about it ending up downright unpleasant.