RE: Lotus adds Evora 'Sports Racer' models

[EK993]

kambites said:

I don't really understand why anyone would pay the premium to own a 911 Carrera over a Cayman, but clearly people do.

It's a simple case of human nature. Why do people buy any aspirational prestige item - a mont blanc pen when a Bic will do, an Armani shirt when they can go to M&S. Because people want self gratification and others to judge them by the possessions that they own. They want to say they own a 911, not a Cayman. Has very little to do with the ability of the car for 90% of buyers.

[Guvernator]

EK993 said:

kambites said:

I don't really understand why anyone would pay the premium to own a 911 Carrera over a Cayman, but clearly people do.

It's a simple case of human nature. Why do people buy any aspirational prestige item - a mont blanc pen when a Bic will do, an Armani shirt when they can go to M&S. Because people want self gratification and others to judge them by the possessions that they own. They want to say they own a 911, not a Cayman. Has very little to do with the ability of the car for 90% of buyers.

Agree 100%, the Cayman will always be seen as the "poor mans Porsche" despite the fact that it's actually a better car in most respects due to the simple fact that it hasn't got 30 years of aspirational branding behind it. The 911's position as THE premium sports coupe is almost unassailable now. Even the better, cheaper Cayman can't compete with it's more expensive sibling simply due to the fact that it will always be seen as the Porsche you buy if you can't afford a 911, there is no other reason for the 911 to be £30k more expensive than a Cayman other than it's aspirational value.

If even a Porsche Cayman can't get past that, how the hell are a small company like Lotus supposed to and the simple answer is they can't. The Lotus management seem to think if they offer a good enough 911 rival, it will sell, WRONG. They need to stop trying to do the impossible and concentrate on a different market segment or USP which enables them to attract a different kind of buyer. The Elise was a success for them because it offered something different\unique, they should stick to what they are good at. Many have tried to take on the 911 over the years, the 911 is still here and they aren't, that should tell you all you need to know.

[Toaster]

philnotts said:

I have had three and love the car. Price / Re-sale value and Lotus going under is a very big concern though!

Phil

Don't be bonkers, the resale of a Evora has no more devaluation than and avarage "luxury" merc or BMW what you may be saying is that you cannot afford the devaluation of the avarage luxury car price, and if the Europa is anything to go buy I wouldnt worry about Lotus and the world could end tomorrow (thought it was today actually)

Edited by Toaster on Friday 21st December 13:27

[limpsfield]

I have had my 2010 Evora for six weeks and around 1500 miles. I sold an Elise and Maserati 4200 to change.

They are great, great cars - for me the perfect compromise between the somewhat impractical Elise and the thirsty and expensive to run Maserati.

It wouldn't bother me if I had to stick with the Evora for the rest of my driving life and couldn't have another car.

But I do think that new their pricing is ambitious. And I don't think your typical Porsche buyer has much of an overlap with your typical Lotus buyer so that was (is) always going to be a tough market to crack.

TVR did fantastically well in the early 90s when there really wasn't too much competition in that sector and the price point was right. And then, when it got more competitive, they didn't.

I do think the appetite in recent years for "brands" also does Lotus no favours - the dominance of Porsche from the £40k ish point through to £80k+ gives plenty of choice of shiny-shiny.

If they had any wiggle room on the price it would be an interesting experiment to think about repositioning it.

But, but - despite all of this, they are great cars. And if, God forbid, Lotus do end up not being around there are plenty of indies out there to look after them so I wouldn't let that bother you.

I hope they can pull through yet another difficult patch but I don't think adding the bits that mine and a lot of other people's cars already have, is the way to do it.

Gratuitous Welsh filth pic

[kambites]

philnotts said:

braddo said:

Whatever you do, do not let pistonheads shape your opinion! Go book a test drive.

I have had three and love the car. Price / Re-sale value and Lotus going under is a very big concern though!

Phil

I suspect it'll be like most Lotus products - heavy depreciation for the first two or three years then a plateau pretty much indefinitely. My Elise cost 26k new; I bought it at three years old for 16k; it's now eight years old and worth about 14k.

[kambites]

Guvernator said:

EK993 said:

kambites said:

I don't really understand why anyone would pay the premium to own a 911 Carrera over a Cayman, but clearly people do.

It's a simple case of human nature. Why do people buy any aspirational prestige item - a mont blanc pen when a Bic will do, an Armani shirt when they can go to M&S. Because people want self gratification and others to judge them by the possessions that they own. They want to say they own a 911, not a Cayman. Has very little to do with the ability of the car for 90% of buyers.

Agree 100%, the Cayman will always be seen as the "poor mans Porsche" despite the fact that it's actually a better car in most respects due to the simple fact that it hasn't got 30 years of aspirational branding behind it. The 911's position as THE premium sports coupe is almost unassailable now. Even the better, cheaper Cayman can't compete with it's more expensive sibling simply due to the fact that it will always be seen as the Porsche you buy if you can't afford a 911, there is no other reason for the 911 to be £30k more expensive than a Cayman other than it's aspirational value.

If even a Porsche Cayman can't get past that, how the hell are a small company like Lotus supposed to and the simple answer is they can't. The Lotus management seem to think if they offer a good enough 911 rival, it will sell, WRONG. They need to stop trying to do the impossible and concentrate on a different market segment or USP which enables them to attract a different kind of buyer. The Elise was a success for them because it offered something different\unique, they should stick to what they are good at. Many have tried to take on the 911 over the years, the 911 is still here and they aren't, that should tell you all you need to know.

Probably all true, but it's a bit sad that people are that shallow.

[Guvernator]

kambites said:

Probably all true, but it's a bit sad that people are that shallow.

It is but that's the world be live in now. If I a mere pleb on an internet forum can realise they aren't going to beat Porsche at their own game, why can't the highly paid senior management as Lotus see it, they really do appear to be living in cloud cuckoo land.

This isn't the Battle of Britain where the plucky Brits can take on the might of ze Germans and win, we only held on by the skin of our teeth in that one too until the American's and Russians came in to save us. Lotus either need someone to come in and save them or they need to stop trying to fight the Germans altogether or I fear this battle won't end nearly as well as it did 70 years ago.

[Tonyringtone]

This isn't the Battle of Britain where the plucky Brits can take on the might of ze Germans and win, we only held on by the skin of our teeth in that one too until the American's and Russians came in to save us. Lotus either need someone to come in and save them or they need to stop trying to fight the Germans altogether or I fear this battle won't end nearly as well as it did 70 years ago.

With all this reference to WW2' as the great Dame Vera Lynn once sang:

"There'll always be an England
While there's a country lane,
Wherever there's a cottage small
Beside a field of grain.
There'll always be an England
While there's a busy street,
Wherever there's a turning wheel,
Especially a LOTUS at your feet.

[SidewaysSi]

Whilst not an Evora, I do drive an Elise and recently went through the Porsche v Lotus issue. Somewhat different at the budget I was looking at (up to £20k) but a Cayman/Boxster never appealed - I find them a bit bland/dull/normal. I did however seriously consider a 968CS or 911 (3.2/SC/964). However the extra weight of the Germans put me off and none drove as well as the Lotus. I would class myself as a bit of a nutter though and couldn't give a monkeys about practicality or image which may well the main reason the majority of people buy these things.

Lotuses are very different to Porsches but in my eyes far more special. A brand that epitomises coolness which the rather ubiquitous Porsche somehow lacks. Whether this is enough to support a £65k Evora is questionable though. And yes, my next car will probably be a 911 GT3/RS.

[alfa1478]

I owned an Elise sc for 3.5 years and found it the most reliable and defect free car I've had the pleasure of running. Much better than the German marquee I've owned in this respect. The evora is a fabulous car which most people in the uk don't give a chance. I was lucky enough to borrow one for a two week honeymoon driving round Scotland. This was a2010 car and the MY2012 examples are considerably better and very well made.. I have test driven porsche cayman r and gt3 911s which I liked but they don't have the handling and ride finesse of a lotus or the character. The just didn't put a smile on my face. I have an exige v6 on order. Another excellent product. I would encourage people to go and try the evora or exige you never know you might like it over another German car!

[alfa1478]

limpsfield said:

I have had my 2010 Evora for six weeks and around 1500 miles. I sold an Elise and Maserati 4200 to change.

They are great, great cars - for me the perfect compromise between the somewhat impractical Elise and the thirsty and expensive to run Maserati.

It wouldn't bother me if I had to stick with the Evora for the rest of my driving life and couldn't have another car.

But I do think that new their pricing is ambitious. And I don't think your typical Porsche buyer has much of an overlap with your typical Lotus buyer so that was (is) always going to be a tough market to crack.

TVR did fantastically well in the early 90s when there really wasn't too much competition in that sector and the price point was right. And then, when it got more competitive, they didn't.

I do think the appetite in recent years for "brands" also does Lotus no favours - the dominance of Porsche from the £40k ish point through to £80k+ gives plenty of choice of shiny-shiny.

If they had any wiggle room on the price it would be an interesting experiment to think about repositioning it.

But, but - despite all of this, they are great cars. And if, God forbid, Lotus do end up not being around there are plenty of indies out there to look after them so I wouldn't let that bother you.

I hope they can pull through yet another difficult patch but I don't think adding the bits that mine and a lot of other people's cars already have, is the way to do it.

Gratuitous Welsh filth pic

Nice shot. Oyster interior is very nice.

[twisted2fit]

I test drove a 997 , cayman and an Evora. The 997 and cayman are better commuting devices. The Evora is a better driving experience. Absolutely no comparison:-) drive one and make ur own mind up:-)did scotland to stelvio in mine and it was amazing:-) for me lotus are a very emotive brand. You either get it or u don't. Porsche make better cars than lotus ever will:-(..... But give me my favorite stretch of road and I'd ask for the keys of the Evora every time.

The residual argument doesnt work when you can pick up a 996 for 10k.... Booster for 6-7k... You'd struggle to pick up a nice elise for that money. Porsche cars are mass produced and are in plentiful supply. Hardly 50 used evorss on the market. Have a look at the number of 997s!! Even the Europa which was a massive flop has better residuals than a 911 or boxster

[SidewaysSi]

Totally agree. The right Lotus at the right price is cheaper to run that a Porsche, both in terms of day to day running and residuals. And Porsches have had more than their fare share of expensive problems...

[Oddball RS]

SpeckledJim said:

MrTappets said:

Just remind me, how much does a well-specced 991 come in at?

£80-£100k.

Yet despite being much cheaper, the Evora isn't moving. Because they've set their shoulder against the closest thing in the auto industry to an immovable object.

Which was some variety of arrogant, daft and over-ambitious of them to do.

Agreed pointless comparison to make, go and look at them both.

[Black S2K]

limpsfield said:

I have had my 2010 Evora for six weeks and around 1500 miles. I sold an Elise and Maserati 4200 to change.

They are great, great cars - for me the perfect compromise between the somewhat impractical Elise and the thirsty and expensive to run Maserati.

It wouldn't bother me if I had to stick with the Evora for the rest of my driving life and couldn't have another car.

But I do think that new their pricing is ambitious. And I don't think your typical Porsche buyer has much of an overlap with your typical Lotus buyer so that was (is) always going to be a tough market to crack.

TVR did fantastically well in the early 90s when there really wasn't too much competition in that sector and the price point was right. And then, when it got more competitive, they didn't.

I do think the appetite in recent years for "brands" also does Lotus no favours - the dominance of Porsche from the £40k ish point through to £80k+ gives plenty of choice of shiny-shiny.

If they had any wiggle room on the price it would be an interesting experiment to think about repositioning it.

But, but - despite all of this, they are great cars. And if, God forbid, Lotus do end up not being around there are plenty of indies out there to look after them so I wouldn't let that bother you.

I hope they can pull through yet another difficult patch but I don't think adding the bits that mine and a lot of other people's cars already have, is the way to do it.

Gratuitous Welsh filth pic

It is a lovely car indeed.

I wonder if what's missing is a slightly cheaper, SWB 2-seater and/or roadster version. Lotus' 308GTB to their 308GT4, perhaps? And not the 37 VAG-style niche vehicles King Prawn Bahar was planning (I use the term advisedly) definitely.

Ultimately though, yes; They're never gonna catch up with the boring, thinking inside the box company car lease package of Porsche and must focus on more excitement instead.

[twisted2fit]

Like the idea of a swb evora hard core car:-) they keep trying to sell it as a GT and filling it with leather etc. they need a stripped out version with no carpets, nav, power wing mirrors etc with a weight of sub 1300 kg. sports exhaust and induction kit so it's got nearly 300bhp as a N/A. Sell it for 40-45k and I'd bet it'd sell:-( they r targeting the wrong market:-( great car but they shud stick to what they do good

[Ozzie Osmond]

twisted2fit said:

Like the idea of a swb evora hard core car:-) they keep trying to sell it as a GT and filling it with leather etc. they need a stripped out version with no carpets, nav, power wing mirrors etc with a weight of sub 1300 kg. sports exhaust and induction kit so it's got nearly 300bhp as a N/A. Sell it for 40-45k and I'd bet it'd sell:-( they r targeting the wrong market:-( great car but they shud stick to what they do good

Do please try to keep up....

You've just described the newly-launched Exige V6.

[Thorburn]

Ozzie Osmond said:

twisted2fit said:

Like the idea of a swb evora hard core car:-) they keep trying to sell it as a GT and filling it with leather etc. they need a stripped out version with no carpets, nav, power wing mirrors etc with a weight of sub 1300 kg. sports exhaust and induction kit so it's got nearly 300bhp as a N/A. Sell it for 40-45k and I'd bet it'd sell:-( they r targeting the wrong market:-( great car but they shud stick to what they do good

Do please try to keep up....

You've just described the newly-launched Exige V6.

There are some advantages to the Evora platform - it's much easier to get in and out of if nothing else - but there are rumblings that there will be future Evora models along these lines.

£40-45k is optimistic though I fear, that's Elise S money which to be fair is a VERY good car. Evo rated it above the new Boxster.

I suppose though with a budget of £40-45k there is nothing to stop you picking up a 2010 Evora for £30k or so (maybe less if you can find a 2+0 that's been sitting around a while), stripping out the interior and giving it some of the Evora GTN upgrade packs designed for the Evora race cars and fitting the track biassed Nitron suspension to make your ideal car.

[twisted2fit]

Had an exige..have an evora...getting in an out of the exige did my head in:-( I've got a bad back...also exige is very small and has absolutely no luggage space...I genuinely think there is a market for a stripped out cheapish evora:-)

[justin220]

twisted2fit said:

I test drove a 997 , cayman and an Evora. The 997 and cayman are better commuting devices. The Evora is a better driving experience. Absolutely no comparison:-) drive one and make ur own mind up:-)did scotland to stelvio in mine and it was amazing:-) for me lotus are a very emotive brand. You either get it or u don't. Porsche make better cars than lotus ever will:-(..... But give me my favorite stretch of road and I'd ask for the keys of the Evora every time.

The residual argument doesnt work when you can pick up a 996 for 10k.... Booster for 6-7k... You'd struggle to pick up a nice elise for that money. Porsche cars are mass produced and are in plentiful supply. Hardly 50 used evorss on the market. Have a look at the number of 997s!! Even the Europa which was a massive flop has better residuals than a 911 or boxster

Totally agree. There is something special about an Evora. Its unique, special to look at, and feels like an event to drive. Its nice driving about in something that you never see another one of. I think I have seen one Evora out on the road in the 2.5 years I've had mine. Also, the steering really is the best I've tried. I've done a couple of minor mods to mine, and whilst it doesn't quite sound as good as a GT3, its not bad. Plenty people have said how nice it sounds.

I've toyed with the idea of changing to a GT3, but I didn't instantly 'love it' when I drove one like I did with the Evora.

I've just got back from the Ring in mine, and it was an absolute hoot! Like you said, technically the 911 is probably better in almost every aspect, but I just don't lust after one.

I agree slightly on the styling, its not perfect and there are a few awkward angles. But I still think it looks fantastic! I'm finding it a difficult car to replace



Any excuse for a pic!