Koenigsegg. The unloved super car?
Discussion
ph123 said:
1,13.8.
Some controversy arising about how that time came to fruition:The following pictures and quotes come from http://teamspeed.com/forums/supercars/78235-pagani... and following pages.
Pictures taken at Top Gear track come from this Flickr page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/motormorph/sets/72157...
From Teamspeed member mattjs33:
The tires as pictured at the Top Gear track
have a large outer treadblock pattern which does not match the tires seen on any Huayra press photos,
nor the photo on Pagani's page referencing their partnership with Pirelli: http://www.pagani.com/huayra/partners/pirelli.aspx
Nor does the pattern seem to match anything in the P Zero range, per Pirelli's website, as far as I can tell.
http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/car/genericConte...
I'm not even 100% convinced they're even the same tires that the Huayra wore when Mr. Hammond posed with it in the photo below.
In any case, I've examined Rowan Horncastle's photos on that Flickr set closely and not only do I not find any "P Zero" markings, I don't find any branding at all, save for the Pirelli logo and the size.
Has anybody seen these tires, or know what kind they are? Because they seem to be unique on the Huayra at this event.
A few pages later, after some further investigation he states the following:
1. The Huayra is stated by Pagani to come with Pirelli PZero Corsa tires, size 255/35ZR-19 (front) and 335/30zr-20 (rear).
2. The Pirelli racing slicks on the Zonda R are said by Pagani to be sizes 265/645-19 (front) and 325/705-20 (rear), as per Pagani's website.
3. The tires that were on the Huayra when driven by the Stig have a tread pattern that does not match anything in Pirelli's current PZero Corsa line.
4. The tires that were on the Huayra when driven by the Stig were not the sizes that Pagani states it uses, but rather the same exact size as the racing slicks of the Zonda R, namely 265/645-19 (already cited) and 325/705-20 (see enlarged photo below).
5. These type of tire size designations are not used by Pirelli for any street legal tire, but rather for racing tires designed for off-road use.
6. The Pirelli tires that were on the Huayra when driven by the Stig have treadwear inspection dots in the exact same pattern as you find on Pirelli racing slicks.
7. These types of treadwear inspection dots are not typically found on treaded, street-legal tires.
8. The Pirelli tires that were on the Huayra when driven by the Stig carry no identifying branding, either PZero Corsa or otherwise, except for tire sizing already identified, and the brand name Pirelli.
It is also widely acknowledged that racing tires, particularly slick treaded racing tires, are not intended for street use, and thus no attempt is made to certify them as such.
It is evident by anybody with knowledge on the subject that the tires on the Huayra when driven by the Stig, began life as slick treaded racing tires.
And now back to my own opinion:
And therefore the conclusion can only be: the Pagani's time is a fraud.
The more I hear, the more I dislike Pagani and it's practices.
Koenigsegg on the other hand is getting more and more of my support.
Waiting for Streetrod to come in, because I suspect it was him on Teamspeed who was Pagani's biggest supporter in defending the Top Gear Lap done by the Huayra.
[Yes I know it is TYRE and not TIRE]
Edited by vincegail on Tuesday 26th February 19:03
http://forum.pagani-zonda.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&a...
A little on the other side of things - basically there is a track package, but what it is has not been released.
I have no idea which is correct, but on the Teamspeed forum it is rather hilarious what is going on - rather biased on both sides (coming from a big Pagani fan). I hope they haven't done this though, and would be disappointed if it turns out to be the case. Anyway, this is a Koenigsegg topic, so let's avoid the Pagani/ Koenigsegg debate which can be done elsewhere.
A little on the other side of things - basically there is a track package, but what it is has not been released.
I have no idea which is correct, but on the Teamspeed forum it is rather hilarious what is going on - rather biased on both sides (coming from a big Pagani fan). I hope they haven't done this though, and would be disappointed if it turns out to be the case. Anyway, this is a Koenigsegg topic, so let's avoid the Pagani/ Koenigsegg debate which can be done elsewhere.
I would be disappointed if the Pagani wore cut slicks but I wouldn't put it past them, in the same way that I wouldn't put it past any of the manufacturers that have posted 'dubious' times on that track...
I'd love the 'egg and the Venom to have a go at it, that's for sure.
Whilst on the subject of the Venom, being that the 'egg and Mr Hennessey's finest occupy the same bracket on performance and price, what are people's opinions on the Venom?
To me, it makes the 'egg seem like great value considering the materials and engineering that have been poured into it. I genuinely think that the Venom is the best looking/ coolest supercar out there but I just can't justify the price. I closely follow the build threads of an Audi V10 Exige and a couple of LSx powered cars and it seems to me that you can build 90% of the Venom in your garage for 10% of the price. In fact, I am sure of it. You may even be able to build 95% of a Venom for 5% of the price.
Pagani and Koenigsegg, whilst I don't believe justifying their price tag (I suspect they don't care what I think but look at the cost of other carbon chassis cars that are available), offer serious value against the Venom IMHO. I guess Mr Hennessey perhaps just set out to build one and then maybe a couple more to recoup his development expenses, whereas Pagani and Koenigsegg are looking to build more and perhaps have less margin in the car?
I need to sign up to Teamspeed as that looks like a lot of fun over there!
I'd love the 'egg and the Venom to have a go at it, that's for sure.
Whilst on the subject of the Venom, being that the 'egg and Mr Hennessey's finest occupy the same bracket on performance and price, what are people's opinions on the Venom?
To me, it makes the 'egg seem like great value considering the materials and engineering that have been poured into it. I genuinely think that the Venom is the best looking/ coolest supercar out there but I just can't justify the price. I closely follow the build threads of an Audi V10 Exige and a couple of LSx powered cars and it seems to me that you can build 90% of the Venom in your garage for 10% of the price. In fact, I am sure of it. You may even be able to build 95% of a Venom for 5% of the price.
Pagani and Koenigsegg, whilst I don't believe justifying their price tag (I suspect they don't care what I think but look at the cost of other carbon chassis cars that are available), offer serious value against the Venom IMHO. I guess Mr Hennessey perhaps just set out to build one and then maybe a couple more to recoup his development expenses, whereas Pagani and Koenigsegg are looking to build more and perhaps have less margin in the car?
I need to sign up to Teamspeed as that looks like a lot of fun over there!
I was wondering how long it would take for that thread to end up on here, especially as I have been one of the major contributors 
But as I just said over on Teamspeed I would like to add this. First check out Pagani's press release on its web site:
http://www.pagani.com/en/news/2013/pagani_huayra_f...
Then focus on this particular part of that: "equipped with Pirelli PZero Corsa specifically designed by Pirelli just for the Huayra"
A lot of the discussion on Teamspeed has centred around weather the tyres are hand cut slicks or genuine street tyres. Also the fact that the tyre sizes are not commonly available.
If we take Pagani's claims at face value then the above statement vindicates them. But I fully accept this is not going to satisfy the sceptics or conspiracy theorists. This argument will no doubt rumble on
But as I just said over on Teamspeed I would like to add this. First check out Pagani's press release on its web site:
http://www.pagani.com/en/news/2013/pagani_huayra_f...
Then focus on this particular part of that: "equipped with Pirelli PZero Corsa specifically designed by Pirelli just for the Huayra"
A lot of the discussion on Teamspeed has centred around weather the tyres are hand cut slicks or genuine street tyres. Also the fact that the tyre sizes are not commonly available.
If we take Pagani's claims at face value then the above statement vindicates them. But I fully accept this is not going to satisfy the sceptics or conspiracy theorists. This argument will no doubt rumble on
Again, as a Pagani fan: the tyre size is the big issue - treads etc can be changed, but why would you have a race tyre size written on the wall of a road tyre? The only reason I can think of is that if they are more of a prototype tyre that they prepared using the race-prepared tyre mould but with a different compound since they hadn't finalised the mould for the special new PZero tyre.
dom9 said:
Whilst on the subject of the Venom, being that the 'egg and Mr Hennessey's finest occupy the same bracket on performance and price, what are people's opinions on the Venom?
Whilst the price of the Venom is staggering, and it probably doesn't have quite the level of aesthetic craftsmanship of the Koenigsegg or the Pagani, I'd rather have the Venom. It's designed for nothing other than pummeling roads into submission, and the mindblowing performance and the experience of driving it would make it far more special to me than the turned aluminium frippery of the European cars.NRS said:
Again, as a Pagani fan: the tyre size is the big issue - treads etc can be changed, but why would you have a race tyre size written on the wall of a road tyre?
And why would you use TWO different tyres when you have one especially designed for you? I'd use that one all the time!Double BS seeing as Michelin's PSS can be utilised on a variety of cars. It's not about being a 'conspiracy theorist', it's about the car clearly not being in road trim. Those are cut slicks. Saying the mods are part of a currently unavailable 'track pack' isn't justification. Would that splitter make it over a speedbump? Could you drive it on those tyres in the rain? Could you get another tyre if you had a puncture? Why isn't it good enough to put round without the 'options' given a great deal of the rest of the car is designed for road use? Load of nonsense for a hollow 'victory' salivated over by people who'll tell you about what 'JC said' over the water cooler.
TG don't care, it's entertainment.
TG don't care, it's entertainment.
Mastodon2 said:
Whilst the price of the Venom is staggering, and it probably doesn't have quite the level of aesthetic craftsmanship of the Koenigsegg or the Pagani, I'd rather have the Venom. It's designed for nothing other than pummeling roads into submission, and the mindblowing performance and the experience of driving it would make it far more special to me than the turned aluminium frippery of the European cars.
If money was no object, I'd probably be buying a Venom first, a Koenigsegg second and a Pagani third. In fact, that's a lie, without even seeing it, I know I'd be crawling, naked over hot coals to get my hands on an F150. The P1 looks good and the 918 looks interesting but I am well and truly bought into the Ferrari 'aura' and that is where my money would go.However, keeping this thread on track, I would certainly take the 'egg over the Venom as it just seems to offer a lot more in terms of engineering and materials. If you went and weighed it in, as an analogy, I think you are getting far more. Take a look at some of the Exige projects, mimicking (if not started before) the Hennessey and tell me that their budgets get even close to 6-figures:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
There are a number of guys on PH investigating putting Audi V8s into VX220s and there are plenty of examples of V8s being dropped in the Lotus chassis by people like Caral. I just can't see how Hennessey can justify the price tag. I am sure the carbon body is expensive and I am sure there was a lot of fancy FEA done on the rear chassis structure but you can buy a 1,000bhp LSx engine off the shelf and I can assure you that there are plenty of engineers capable of designing and building the engine cradle, suspension etc.
At the end of the day, it's a fairly basic car that is very well set up. Look at the roll cage on the convertible - it's just horrible! I am sure it is functional etc but you just look at the craftsmanship that goes into each 'egg and all the bespoke CFRP parts and in-house engine development, fairly bespoke transaxle etc. It just feels like a lot more bang for your buck!
Honestly, that is not to knock John Hennessey's achievment as I think the car is about my favourite supercar at the moment (except maybe this: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... and the reviews it is getting are exceptional but I still feel like this would be better priced with the Ferrari F458s of this world and I would, even then, expect it to be difficult to sell.
I don't know. It just seems like $1M supercars are popping up everwhere now and they only sell for that because Bugatti proved that it could be done. There needs to be some sort of normalisation at some point. Pagani and Koenigsegg, IMHO, are leading the way on 'quality' and some others need to catch up to truly 'compete'. It no longer matters that you can do 230mph in a car or 0-60mph in under 3 seconds, you now have a choice of what vehicle you want to do that in and none of them are truly 'unique' anymore.
I'm not even sure what my point is but when you look at the true engineering behind some of these cars, we are well past what is necessary/ needed and into engineering beauty, for want of a better phrase.
It's a bit like expensive watches. They all tell the time perfectly well, it's just some are nicer 'objects' than others and everyone has different taste.
If the Hennessey existed in a world without Veyrons, Koenigseggs, Paganis etc then maybe the price could be justified but I just can't see it. However, as above, I guess if you have $50M in the bank then $1M on a car, just because you like the look of it, isn't much. If I only had $1M and was forced to spend it on a car, perhaps I'd get an F40 and spend the rest building my own road rocket!?
LongLiveTazio said:
Double BS seeing as Michelin's PSS can be utilised on a variety of cars. It's not about being a 'conspiracy theorist', it's about the car clearly not being in road trim. Those are cut slicks. Saying the mods are part of a currently unavailable 'track pack' isn't justification. Would that splitter make it over a speedbump? Could you drive it on those tyres in the rain? Could you get another tyre if you had a puncture? Why isn't it good enough to put round without the 'options' given a great deal of the rest of the car is designed for road use? Load of nonsense for a hollow 'victory' salivated over by people who'll tell you about what 'JC said' over the water cooler.
TG don't care, it's entertainment.
It's TV, I don't care and there is no reason for me to feel hard done by. I do, however, think Pagani have 'cheated' (was trying to think of a less harsh term) as this is not the tyre it has used on its road car and (beyond reasonable doubt) it is almost certainly a cut slick. Would it be top of the leaderboard if it ran normal tyres or if the other cars ran slicks? Maybe not. It was done deliberately so they went top. They may not be the Lance Armstrong of TG but they are not playing within the spirit of the rules. We may now see a new age of fastest cars on the TG track as this is now in the public domain. Koenigsegg know all about it and there is no real reason now for anyone challenging for the top spot to even try it on road tyres, unless they are sure they'll go top and can make the point about beating cheats, 'clean'.TG don't care, it's entertainment.
Edited by dom9 on Wednesday 27th February 20:27
Its not actually illegal to use race tyres on the road, so long as they have the correct tread depth and width and a car with cut slicks would pass an MOT.
It is illegal for a manufacturer to sell new race tyres for road use if they have not been tested and e marked for road use, hence the disclaimer found on the sidewalls.
I had this confirmed by the Dept of transport head office last year.
It is illegal for a manufacturer to sell new race tyres for road use if they have not been tested and e marked for road use, hence the disclaimer found on the sidewalls.
I had this confirmed by the Dept of transport head office last year.
LongLiveTazio said:
Double BS seeing as Michelin's PSS can be utilised on a variety of cars. It's not about being a 'conspiracy theorist', it's about the car clearly not being in road trim. Those are cut slicks. Saying the mods are part of a currently unavailable 'track pack' isn't justification. Would that splitter make it over a speedbump? Could you drive it on those tyres in the rain? Could you get another tyre if you had a puncture? Why isn't it good enough to put round without the 'options' given a great deal of the rest of the car is designed for road use? Load of nonsense for a hollow 'victory' salivated over by people who'll tell you about what 'JC said' over the water cooler.
TG don't care, it's entertainment.
The front end on that huayra looked so sharp you could cut yourself on it, and most track time is found in the front of a car. It was also braking to a degree common with slick shod vehicles, hence why the front splitter was trying to get friendly with the asphalt in a major way. It was suspiciously glued to the track. TG don't care, it's entertainment.
Sorry to have hijacked this thread with talk about the Pagani Top Gear lap. Now that there's a separate thread about that: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
So we can go on talking about Koenigsegg! 5 days before Geneva (pressdays that is, general public is the 7th)! Would love to see that Hundra/1-100-10.
If the renderings are anything to go by, it will be extremely ugly, but extremely purposeful and therefore beautiful again.
So we can go on talking about Koenigsegg! 5 days before Geneva (pressdays that is, general public is the 7th)! Would love to see that Hundra/1-100-10.
If the renderings are anything to go by, it will be extremely ugly, but extremely purposeful and therefore beautiful again.
vincegail said:
Sorry to have hijacked this thread with talk about the Pagani Top Gear lap. Now that there's a separate thread about that: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
So we can go on talking about Koenigsegg! 5 days before Geneva (pressdays that is, general public is the 7th)! Would love to see that Hundra/1-100-10.
If the renderings are anything to go by, it will be extremely ugly, but extremely purposeful and therefore beautiful again.
Agreed So we can go on talking about Koenigsegg! 5 days before Geneva (pressdays that is, general public is the 7th)! Would love to see that Hundra/1-100-10.
If the renderings are anything to go by, it will be extremely ugly, but extremely purposeful and therefore beautiful again.
I am really looking forward to seeing what Keonigsegg do over the next 5-10 years as they certainly have some interesting technology in the works...
I wonder where the 'limit' is though and whether they feel the need for a 300mph road car? Perhaps, once they are more established, they will start chasing the downforce figures etc that McLaren seem to be going for?
I still love the look of all the Koenigsegg models that have been released (dubious colour schemes aside) so I will be interested to see what is at Geneva!
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