Is ABS a good or bad thing if it gets really wintry?
Discussion
Ozzie Osmond said:
All very macho
Fact remains, if there's no grip there's no grip and you can't expect ABS to defy the laws of physics!!
Yet my normal cars brakes do stop.Fact remains, if there's no grip there's no grip and you can't expect ABS to defy the laws of physics!!
By locking up they go through the slippery layer - this is a very well known issue with ABS - I'm surprised you are so ignorant of it.
zebedee said:
The ESP is faulty too by definition now, but bearing in mind a lot of people turn that off to enjoy driving as they intend, I'm not so phased by that, and I don't think any time it has cut in it has helped me avoid a situation. I accept that whatever gets done to sort the ABS will sort the ESP out too of course!
Really? "Lots of people" turn it off? I've never met any of them who routinely turn it off on an average drive to work or blast up a motorway, why would you need to?I agree with you that I've very rarely had ESP cut in, but on the occasions it has (once actually was the icy puddle situation that you describe) it is utterly invaluable, I know that on at least one occasion it has saved me from a certain accident.
Sorry, not having a go as clearly you intend to get it fixed, I just don't understand what sort of person thinks that switching it off is a routine thing to do. (I'm obviously excluding track days here etc.)
Having owned a couple of TVR (still have one) with no abs traction control Ect. at this time of year i would rather be with it as it takes seconds of reaction time if you do lock up and skid if not used to driving with out it and using Cadence braking. It basically allows you to skid but steer at the same time but it has never stopped me any faster just gives me one less thing to think about if i lock the front wheels up not that i do it very often 
The point when even only old, vaguely half-reasonable ABS systems become a 'problem' is c.3-5mph. Some older cars even allow you to turn it off for such low-speed manouvring.
Otherwise in the cold/wet/meek blidwinter - I'll take it. Everytime: it works better than a cold driver. Please get yours fixed for the rest of us.
Otherwise in the cold/wet/meek blidwinter - I'll take it. Everytime: it works better than a cold driver. Please get yours fixed for the rest of us.
ABS is all well and good 99% of the year but once the snows down I'd much rather not have it.
Arguing that if there's no grip you won't stop with or without it is silly. Obviously he's got to 10mph on his drive so there is grip there, ABS doesn't want a wheel to lock so instead applys pressure to each brake for a microsecond doing absolutely nothing. I tried my old cars with no ABS against my parents car with, in snow from 15 mph mine would stop at least 30 foot sooner. Don't get me wrong I think it's a brilliant idea most of the time, just in snow and ice it's crap!
Arguing that if there's no grip you won't stop with or without it is silly. Obviously he's got to 10mph on his drive so there is grip there, ABS doesn't want a wheel to lock so instead applys pressure to each brake for a microsecond doing absolutely nothing. I tried my old cars with no ABS against my parents car with, in snow from 15 mph mine would stop at least 30 foot sooner. Don't get me wrong I think it's a brilliant idea most of the time, just in snow and ice it's crap!
I actuallytnk that in snow and ice abs is a good thing. It demonstrates how little grip you have before you end up in the hedge etc.
Its only in fresh snow where I think I could stop faster without it. Generally speaking if there is so little grip that the ABS kicks in then there would be litle grip for braking normally and if the car is sliding with locked wheels you will have even less chance of steering
Its only in fresh snow where I think I could stop faster without it. Generally speaking if there is so little grip that the ABS kicks in then there would be litle grip for braking normally and if the car is sliding with locked wheels you will have even less chance of steering
Blue Oval84 said:
Really? "Lots of people" turn it off? I've never met any of them who routinely turn it off on an average drive to work or blast up a motorway, why would you need to?
I agree with you that I've very rarely had ESP cut in, but on the occasions it has (once actually was the icy puddle situation that you describe) it is utterly invaluable, I know that on at least one occasion it has saved me from a certain accident.
Sorry, not having a go as clearly you intend to get it fixed, I just don't understand what sort of person thinks that switching it off is a routine thing to do. (I'm obviously excluding track days here etc.)
lots of people turn it off "to drive as they intend" is what I said. i.e if you intend to drive in a spirited way is what I meant, like motoring journos, trackdays, a blat on a b-road etc, I didn't mean that people routinely turn it off. I agree with you that I've very rarely had ESP cut in, but on the occasions it has (once actually was the icy puddle situation that you describe) it is utterly invaluable, I know that on at least one occasion it has saved me from a certain accident.
Sorry, not having a go as clearly you intend to get it fixed, I just don't understand what sort of person thinks that switching it off is a routine thing to do. (I'm obviously excluding track days here etc.)
WeirdNeville said:
Having assisted me avoiding a head on collision in an inch or so of slush, I'd rather have ABS than not in bad conditions.
I didn't even have time to THINK about cadence braking, it was a case of mash the brakes to the floor and steer away from the oncoming car. As it was, I didn't stop before the oncoming car passed me, but as I had steered out of the way of it that wasn't an issue.
For 99% of drivers in 99% of conditions in 99% of cars, ABS is a clear benefit.
(With a slight caveat that in very rare conditions and with less sophisticated systems it can be a real pain in the arse!)
That is precisely the point. I didn't even have time to THINK about cadence braking, it was a case of mash the brakes to the floor and steer away from the oncoming car. As it was, I didn't stop before the oncoming car passed me, but as I had steered out of the way of it that wasn't an issue.
For 99% of drivers in 99% of conditions in 99% of cars, ABS is a clear benefit.
(With a slight caveat that in very rare conditions and with less sophisticated systems it can be a real pain in the arse!)
All these Driving Gods who believe they can somehow out brake electronics that "cadence brake" each individual wheel to the point of lock up without sliding fifteen times a second worry me, frankly.
But the point is, however "clever" they think they are when they're playing at cadence braking, when the chips are down, they're doing 70mph (sorry "leptons"
) on a dual carriageway and Mrs Miggins in a people carrier full kid kids pulls out from a side turning in front of them without warning, the fact is they will simply mash that brake pedal as hard as humanly (superhumanly in their case, obviously) possible, try to steer, and plough into the obstruction with half a turn of lock and the front wheels locked solid. ESP too, who the hell thinks they're so f
king clever that they turn a safety aid like that off on public roads? Fine on a track where you've room to slide about and room to get it wrong, and the road surface and other drivers are consistent but on public roads? Too many people confuse Top Gear with real life I think...
V6Paul said:
Slightly OT, is it a VAG car? If so it's likely to be the ABS control unit that's failed. Pricey one that I'm afraid!
Or several other things - my TT was throwing ABS and ESP lights just before the last MOT, and that was one of the acceleration sensors gone for the ESP system. But because they're linked up, it takes out the ABS as well.Early Audis with ABS (eighties) used to have a switch on the dash to disable the ABS for exactly the reason others have mentioned - their opinion was that locking the front wheels on loose snow or gravel would slow the car sooner due to the build-up of loose stuff in front of the tyre.
Ari said:
That is precisely the point.
All these Driving Gods who believe they can somehow out brake electronics that "cadence brake" each individual wheel to the point of lock up without sliding fifteen times a second worry me, frankly.
But the point is, however "clever" they think they are when they're playing at cadence braking, when the chips are down, they're doing 70mph (sorry "leptons") on a dual carriageway and Mrs Miggins in a people carrier full kid kids pulls out from a side turning in front of them without warning, the fact is they will simply mash that brake pedal as hard as humanly (superhumanly in their case, obviously) possible, try to steer, and plough into the obstruction with half a turn of lock and the front wheels locked solid.
ESP too, who the hell thinks they're so fking clever that they turn a safety aid like that off on public roads? Fine on a track where you've room to slide about and room to get it wrong, and the road surface and other drivers are consistent but on public roads?
Too many people confuse Top Gear with real life I think...
With the exception that a small number of public roads can be driven hard if you're careful I very much agree... I was amazed to see VBH on fifth gear the other night saying how she opposes driver's aids. As much as I love holding down that to turn everything off, its very very rare I do so. All these Driving Gods who believe they can somehow out brake electronics that "cadence brake" each individual wheel to the point of lock up without sliding fifteen times a second worry me, frankly.
But the point is, however "clever" they think they are when they're playing at cadence braking, when the chips are down, they're doing 70mph (sorry "leptons"
) on a dual carriageway and Mrs Miggins in a people carrier full kid kids pulls out from a side turning in front of them without warning, the fact is they will simply mash that brake pedal as hard as humanly (superhumanly in their case, obviously) possible, try to steer, and plough into the obstruction with half a turn of lock and the front wheels locked solid. ESP too, who the hell thinks they're so f
king clever that they turn a safety aid like that off on public roads? Fine on a track where you've room to slide about and room to get it wrong, and the road surface and other drivers are consistent but on public roads? Too many people confuse Top Gear with real life I think...
Frankly modern ABS and stability control is an amazing thing. I took the Z4 out in our snowy works car park the other night and it's ability to straighten you up at is incredible.
There seems to be this misconception that you have 100% control in car and therefore don't need the assistance but you don't. Anybody can hit diesel, an uneven surface, or have someone pull out. Its then that driver aids can save you.
It's interesting that by contrast most motorcyclists, who are often acutely aware of the limitations of their control of their surroundings, don't oppose drivers aids in the same way that many enthusiast car owners do.
Ari said:
That is precisely the point.
All these Driving Gods who believe they can somehow out brake electronics that "cadence brake" each individual wheel to the point of lock up without sliding fifteen times a second worry me, frankly.
But the point is, however "clever" they think they are when they're playing at cadence braking, when the chips are down, they're doing 70mph (sorry "leptons") on a dual carriageway and Mrs Miggins in a people carrier full kid kids pulls out from a side turning in front of them without warning, the fact is they will simply mash that brake pedal as hard as humanly (superhumanly in their case, obviously) possible, try to steer, and plough into the obstruction with half a turn of lock and the front wheels locked solid.
ESP too, who the hell thinks they're so fking clever that they turn a safety aid like that off on public roads? Fine on a track where you've room to slide about and room to get it wrong, and the road surface and other drivers are consistent but on public roads?
Too many people confuse Top Gear with real life I think...
I was driving at 40mph down a NSL B-road when a car came the other way driving on my side of the road (a forgetful German who was driving on his normal side of the road). I hit the brakes, locked up, released, braked, locked up, released, braked, and then had a head on impact that broke my spine.All these Driving Gods who believe they can somehow out brake electronics that "cadence brake" each individual wheel to the point of lock up without sliding fifteen times a second worry me, frankly.
But the point is, however "clever" they think they are when they're playing at cadence braking, when the chips are down, they're doing 70mph (sorry "leptons"
) on a dual carriageway and Mrs Miggins in a people carrier full kid kids pulls out from a side turning in front of them without warning, the fact is they will simply mash that brake pedal as hard as humanly (superhumanly in their case, obviously) possible, try to steer, and plough into the obstruction with half a turn of lock and the front wheels locked solid. ESP too, who the hell thinks they're so f
king clever that they turn a safety aid like that off on public roads? Fine on a track where you've room to slide about and room to get it wrong, and the road surface and other drivers are consistent but on public roads? Too many people confuse Top Gear with real life I think...
"Driving gods" can cadence brake in an emergency. It's just nothing like as good as ABS.
Prof Prolapse said:
I don't think he's suggesting it's beyond the will of man to release the break and reapply mate, I think he's suggesting you can't do it 15 times a second independently for each wheel.
I thought he was implying that driving gods would just lock up and skid in to things. It was this paragraph:Ari said:
But the point is, however "clever" they think they are when they're playing at cadence braking, when the chips are down, they're doing 70mph (sorry "leptons" ) on a dual carriageway and Mrs Miggins in a people carrier full kid kids pulls out from a side turning in front of them without warning, the fact is they will simply mash that brake pedal as hard as humanly (superhumanly in their case, obviously) possible, try to steer, and plough into the obstruction with half a turn of lock and the front wheels locked solid.
) on a dual carriageway and Mrs Miggins in a people carrier full kid kids pulls out from a side turning in front of them without warning, the fact is they will simply mash that brake pedal as hard as humanly (superhumanly in their case, obviously) possible, try to steer, and plough into the obstruction with half a turn of lock and the front wheels locked solid. The only negative experience I've had of ABS is in the older system which treat an axle as a whole (is this 2 channel?)
They can be lethal if, for example, your left wheel is on a big pile of wet leaves, but your right wheel has plenty of traction. It will still release the wheel with good traction, turning your car into a sled. I had this once in my MG ZR causing me to bump the car in front in the slowest crash I've ever been in. Apparently the VX220 system is the same?
They can be lethal if, for example, your left wheel is on a big pile of wet leaves, but your right wheel has plenty of traction. It will still release the wheel with good traction, turning your car into a sled. I had this once in my MG ZR causing me to bump the car in front in the slowest crash I've ever been in. Apparently the VX220 system is the same?
jon- said:
The only negative experience I've had of ABS is in the older system which treat an axle as a whole (is this 2 channel?)
Yep.The much slated VX220 ABS is two channel, so you get a bit of gravel under one front wheel at a junction and it lets go of the brake on the other one that has plenty of grip. Its just an electronics issue as well, unplug it replace with Elise one have Lotus reset ABS system and away you go now with a good 4 channel system.
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