Is ABS a good or bad thing if it gets really wintry?
Discussion
Tunku said:
I think that most of you are missing the point that it's not the bloody brakes, it's the type of tyre you are using for the prevailing conditions. Most of you seem to have your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalalalala"
PH really seems to be getting diluted these days.
Not really, the point is the question at the start of the forum and it is about brakes, not tyres. Incidentally I do have Continental Wintersport tyres on, so I haven't scrimped there at all.PH really seems to be getting diluted these days.
Ari said:
ESP too, who the hell thinks they're so f
king clever that they turn a safety aid like that off on public roads? Fine on a track where you've room to slide about and room to get it wrong, and the road surface and other drivers are consistent but on public roads?
Too many people confuse Top Gear with real life I think...
Load of bking clever that they turn a safety aid like that off on public roads? Fine on a track where you've room to slide about and room to get it wrong, and the road surface and other drivers are consistent but on public roads? Too many people confuse Top Gear with real life I think...
ks. I'm not a driving god and don't think I am. But the traction control on my car cuts in rather too easily. Some bumps in a road has it cutting in and out several times on a particular stretch that causes the car to kangaroo about and is unpleasant. Without the TC on, it's fine. Likewise roundabouts when it's a bit damp it cuts in too early etc, so yeah, I turn it off sometimes. Deal with it. Riknos said:
Load of bks. I'm not a driving god and don't think I am. But the traction control on my car cuts in rather too easily. Some bumps in a road has it cutting in and out several times on a particular stretch that causes the car to kangaroo about and is unpleasant. Without the TC on, it's fine. Likewise roundabouts when it's a bit damp it cuts in too early etc, so yeah, I turn it off sometimes. Deal with it.
Just looked at your "garage" and you have a 2007 Mazda MX5 2.0 Sport which is interesting as I had one too.ks. I'm not a driving god and don't think I am. But the traction control on my car cuts in rather too easily. Some bumps in a road has it cutting in and out several times on a particular stretch that causes the car to kangaroo about and is unpleasant. Without the TC on, it's fine. Likewise roundabouts when it's a bit damp it cuts in too early etc, so yeah, I turn it off sometimes. Deal with it. Agree on that car the TC is a little too eager, I've had it fade the power a couple of times where on the Merc it wouldn't trigger. I've never had it "kangaroo about" though, because the thing to do is back off a little and re-apply the power rather than simply keeping your foot on the floor.
Basically, it's not as sophisticated a system as some, but it's easily worked around.
On a track (not that I ever did track the car) I'd have turned it off too. But on a road, with other traffic, plenty of potential for unforseen hazards, and plenty of idiots about, why would you turn it off when it requires so little skill to accommodate?
Tunku said:
I think that most of you are missing the point that it's not the bloody brakes, it's the type of tyre you are using for the prevailing conditions.
No, you seem to have missed the entire point of this thread by a country mile. It's about brakes, and anti-lock system in particular. There are enough stupid tyre threads already, lets not have another.V8RX7 said:
Except I have EXPERIENCED it and on MORE than one occasion.
I have also seen my friend white as a sheet after his VX220T refused to brake on a track day.
THESE ARE NOT ONE OFF EXPERIENCES GOOGLE IT - WHY THE HELL WOULD WE MAKE IT UP ?
What tends to happen with ABS is the driver stamps on the pedal, the ABS kicks in to stop the car in the shortest possible distance, but the car doesn't stop as fast as they'd liked/hoped/needed so clearly "there's something wrong with it". I have also seen my friend white as a sheet after his VX220T refused to brake on a track day.
THESE ARE NOT ONE OFF EXPERIENCES GOOGLE IT - WHY THE HELL WOULD WE MAKE IT UP ?
It's never the driver that got it wrong...
RacerMike said:
5. Anyone who ever thinks they'd be better without ABS, try braking with your right or left hand side wheels on ice and the others on tarmac. Let me know how many full 360 rotations you get before you come to a stop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2EP4dmCpbk
6. By all means be a hero and drive without it, but ultimately, what's the point? Would you ride a motorbike with a cracked helmet or holed leathers? It's the same thing. Most of the time you won't crash and you'll be fine. But if you do, you won't....
That's a really useful video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2EP4dmCpbk
6. By all means be a hero and drive without it, but ultimately, what's the point? Would you ride a motorbike with a cracked helmet or holed leathers? It's the same thing. Most of the time you won't crash and you'll be fine. But if you do, you won't....
This comes up every few weeks on PH
Put the same ABS equipped car on the right tyres & all is brilliant. The limitations of ABS is defined by what is touching ground. If you have LingaLastaLongTimeDitchDodger's on, no dount down to 3mm you may as well have taboggans for wheels. ABS or no ABS you still wont be stopping quickly.
Put the same ABS equipped car on the right tyres & all is brilliant. The limitations of ABS is defined by what is touching ground. If you have LingaLastaLongTimeDitchDodger's on, no dount down to 3mm you may as well have taboggans for wheels. ABS or no ABS you still wont be stopping quickly.
Super Slo Mo said:
had a demonstration of Volvo's system about 6 years ago in a V70R driven by a racing driver on the wet handling circuit at MIRA.
It had 3 settings: FULL ESP, Part ESP (so allowed you to play a bit) and OFF.
First demo was with it off, circuit was soaking wet, 70 mph hand brake induced drifts into the corners, lots of sideways action, lots of amusement.
Second demo (I was a passenger, not watching from the sidelines), system set to FULL ESP. 70 mph handbrake induced slides, as before, but this time, the instant the handbrake was released, the ESP took over and put the car back into a normal attitude. It was incredible to see just how far out of shape the driver could get the car, and the system would still take over without drama, and put us back. Very reassuring for when you're pressing on on slippery back roads.
The third demo was on Partial ESP. This time, it'd allow the car to drift up to a point, enough to be entertaining, but not so far that we were entirely reliant on the driver's skills at not putting us off the track. Ideal for a novice, or, dare I say it, having a bit of fun on the road where the system will still ultimately intervene to stop things getting too extreme (I know, I know, we should save it for the track, but I reckon most of us have had a play on a wet roundabout when no-one's around).
On the other hand, I've driven other cars with ESP (my Skoda for one), where the system seems a bit slow witted and unresponsive. However, like ABS, it's handy to have in the background for those occasions where something unexpected happens, or there's a bit of diesel on the road mid-corner and you haven't spotted it. It might just be enough to keep you on the road one day.
I had exactly the same demo I think. Did they do the thing where you approach the big inflatable obstacle at about 50mph (from memory) and they don't tell you whether to go left or right until the last second? They shout it out and you have to hit the brakes as hard as you can and swerve the way instructed. It had 3 settings: FULL ESP, Part ESP (so allowed you to play a bit) and OFF.
First demo was with it off, circuit was soaking wet, 70 mph hand brake induced drifts into the corners, lots of sideways action, lots of amusement.
Second demo (I was a passenger, not watching from the sidelines), system set to FULL ESP. 70 mph handbrake induced slides, as before, but this time, the instant the handbrake was released, the ESP took over and put the car back into a normal attitude. It was incredible to see just how far out of shape the driver could get the car, and the system would still take over without drama, and put us back. Very reassuring for when you're pressing on on slippery back roads.
The third demo was on Partial ESP. This time, it'd allow the car to drift up to a point, enough to be entertaining, but not so far that we were entirely reliant on the driver's skills at not putting us off the track. Ideal for a novice, or, dare I say it, having a bit of fun on the road where the system will still ultimately intervene to stop things getting too extreme (I know, I know, we should save it for the track, but I reckon most of us have had a play on a wet roundabout when no-one's around).
On the other hand, I've driven other cars with ESP (my Skoda for one), where the system seems a bit slow witted and unresponsive. However, like ABS, it's handy to have in the background for those occasions where something unexpected happens, or there's a bit of diesel on the road mid-corner and you haven't spotted it. It might just be enough to keep you on the road one day.
I did a similar course with Ford regarding ESP.
I think everyone should do these courses and familiarise themselves with what ABS and ESP does. We'd get a lot more sense talked on these forums then (although to be fair, it seems most people get it).
cptsideways said:
This comes up every few weeks on PH
Put the same ABS equipped car on the right tyres & all is brilliant. The limitations of ABS is defined by what is touching ground. If you have LingaLastaLongTimeDitchDodger's on, no dount down to 3mm you may as well have taboggans for wheels. ABS or no ABS you still wont be stopping quickly.
Precisely that. I think some people think it should be able to overcome the laws of physics, and if it can't it's "useless". Put the same ABS equipped car on the right tyres & all is brilliant. The limitations of ABS is defined by what is touching ground. If you have LingaLastaLongTimeDitchDodger's on, no dount down to 3mm you may as well have taboggans for wheels. ABS or no ABS you still wont be stopping quickly.
Ari said:
Precisely that. I think some people think it should be able to overcome the laws of physics, and if it can't it's "useless".
Exactly, type of person who wacks 18s on there family hatch and then moans they can only afford budget rubber. Then they come to conculsion the car is pants.Super Slo Mo said:
Just one thing to add, when ABS activates for a prolonged period, for example, on snow/ice/oil/diesel, the vacuum assistance that you normally get with the brakes gets used up very quickly and the pedal goes rock hard, and feels unresponsive, as if the brakes aren't working.
This isn't the vacuum depleting, it's the valves in the ABS pump closing as it dumps 100 odd bar out of the brake lines to release a locking wheel. The hard pedal is a result of it becoming isolated from the brake calipers. It's an odd feeling at first, but if you experience it a few times, you know to just keep your foot wedged against the bulkhead and let the car deal with it. Modern pumps are less severe as the pressure spikes are less than they used to be.jbsportstech said:
Exactly, type of person who wacks 18s on there family hatch and then moans they can only afford budget rubber. Then they come to conculsion the car is pants.
My fave is the people that insist on upgrading their brakes/calipers because they just given their car a 10bhp boost with a new air filter/tune. The fact that they are running linglongwong tyres doesn't even come into the equation, and efforts to tell them that they have probably f
ked up their ABS by installing larger calipers/discs/pads falls on deaf ears because the "brakes feel sharper".RacerMike said:
This isn't the vacuum depleting, it's the valves in the ABS pump closing as it dumps 100 odd bar out of the brake lines to release a locking wheel. The hard pedal is a result of it becoming isolated from the brake calipers. It's an odd feeling at first, but if you experience it a few times, you know to just keep your foot wedged against the bulkhead and let the car deal with it. Modern pumps are less severe as the pressure spikes are less than they used to be.
Ok, I was just making what I thought was an educated guess 
. The effect is similar though. jimxms said:
My fave is the people that insist on upgrading their brakes/calipers because they just given their car a 10bhp boost with a new air filter/tune.
The fact that they are running linglongwong tyres doesn't even come into the equation, and efforts to tell them that they have probably fked up their ABS by installing larger calipers/discs/pads falls on deaf ears because the "brakes feel sharper".
Just makes me laugh people buy fast bits of kit and then put cheapest tat between them and the only thing that connects i to the road.The fact that they are running linglongwong tyres doesn't even come into the equation, and efforts to tell them that they have probably f
ked up their ABS by installing larger calipers/discs/pads falls on deaf ears because the "brakes feel sharper".I have changed 4 tyres on a car and its like a different animal. You dont have to spend silly money I find kumho tyres very good. But linglong or nexen!! Please
Ari said:
I had exactly the same demo I think. Did they do the thing where you approach the big inflatable obstacle at about 50mph (from memory) and they don't tell you whether to go left or right until the last second? They shout it out and you have to hit the brakes as hard as you can and swerve the way instructed.
I did a similar course with Ford regarding ESP.
I think everyone should do these courses and familiarise themselves with what ABS and ESP does. We'd get a lot more sense talked on these forums then (although to be fair, it seems most people get it).
I thought it was a cone, rather than an inflatable, but I might not be remembering properly. I do remember having real difficulty with emergency braking and steering simultaneously, I'd swerve, get around the obstacle, then nail the brakes, rather than brake, activate the ABS, then steer. Having said that, it's probably preferably just to steer, so the tyres aren't trying to deal with braking and steering at the same time.I did a similar course with Ford regarding ESP.
I think everyone should do these courses and familiarise themselves with what ABS and ESP does. We'd get a lot more sense talked on these forums then (although to be fair, it seems most people get it).
We also had a demo of the braking distance alarm, where you'd drive at a poster of a car's rear end carried to the side of another car, as you got to within range of potentially driving into it, an audible and visual alarm went off in the cabin. The idea I think was to alert the driver if the car in front suddenly slowed down and he hadn't reacted to it.
Ari said:
What tends to happen with ABS is the driver stamps on the pedal, the ABS kicks in to stop the car in the shortest possible distance, but the car doesn't stop as fast as they'd liked/hoped/needed so clearly "there's something wrong with it".
^^^^ This. The laws of physics still apply!cptsideways said:
This comes up every few weeks on PH
Put the same ABS equipped car on the right tyres & all is brilliant. The limitations of ABS is defined by what is touching ground. If you have LingaLastaLongTimeDitchDodger's on, no dount down to 3mm you may as well have taboggans for wheels. ABS or no ABS you still wont be stopping quickly.
I fully agree that the friction between tyres and ground ultimately limits the rate at which you can shed speed, and cheap Chinese crap tyres don't tend to perform well. However, there is no disputing the fact that some ABS systems are more effective than others.Put the same ABS equipped car on the right tyres & all is brilliant. The limitations of ABS is defined by what is touching ground. If you have LingaLastaLongTimeDitchDodger's on, no dount down to 3mm you may as well have taboggans for wheels. ABS or no ABS you still wont be stopping quickly.
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