Is ABS a good or bad thing if it gets really wintry?

[Ozzie Osmond]

Mr2Mike said:

there is no disputing the fact that some ABS systems are more effective than others.

Agreed.

Equally there is little room to dispute that for the last 20 years a computer has been able to operate 3 or 4 brake pedals swiftly and simultaneously while allowing the car to be steered - something far beyond the ability of people*.

(* Except of course a PH driving god leaning casually against the bar, on his third beer and talking rather loudly...)

[zebedee]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Agreed.

Equally there is little room to dispute that for the last 20 years a computer has been able to operate 3 or 4 brake pedals swiftly and simultaneously while allowing the car to be steered - something far beyond the ability of people*.

(* Except of course a PH driving god leaning casually against the bar, on his third beer and talking rather loudly...)

but has it caused cars to roll into other cars that would otherwise have stopped, that seems to be the big unknown even now.

Incidentally, it is all a bit academic (although an interesting question, given the debate that ensued) because the fault lights have gone away and the systems are back up and running. Will pull the sensor cables apart and reconnect at the weekend.

[jbsportstech]

Ozzie Osmond said:

(* Except of course a PH driving god leaning casually against the bar, on his third beer and talking rather loudly...)

That is spot on, you also can't drive 3 times the speed limit in mondeo but if you have something like a porsche then thats ok then!

[Mr2Mike]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Agreed.

Equally there is little room to dispute that for the last 20 years a computer has been able to operate 3 or 4 brake pedals swiftly and simultaneously while allowing the car to be steered - something far beyond the ability of people*.

Cadence braking may be less effective, but at least I wouldn't just keep pumping the brakes irrespective of whether I needed to after a slight lock up like my ZS (and it seems plenty of other cars) did. Quite simply a human driver was way better than that ABS system in many situations, something which is almost certainly not true of more modern cars.

[Tunku]

Mr2Mike said:

Tunku said:

I think that most of you are missing the point that it's not the bloody brakes, it's the type of tyre you are using for the prevailing conditions.

No, you seem to have missed the entire point of this thread by a country mile. It's about brakes, and anti-lock system in particular. There are enough stupid tyre threads already, lets not have another.

And what makes brakes work?

[itz_baseline]

RacerMike said:

Few things:

1. New MOT requires ABS/ESP to be working if it's fitted to the vehicle. No matter what age your car is, if the system has malfunctioned, strictly speaking, your car isn't roadworthy according to the MOT rules. Hence, if you have an accident and the Police/insurance company find out ABS was malfunctioning, good luck!

Edited by RacerMike on Tuesday 8th January 20:30

This. It's an MOT failure so needs sorting sooner or later, might as well be sooner.

[Ari]

zebedee said:

but has it caused cars to roll into other cars that would otherwise have stopped, that seems to be the big unknown even now.

---

Anyone?

[Ozzie Osmond]

My understanding is that F1 drivers are "the best in the world".

Strange isn't it that Bernie had to ban ABS....

[Zod]

Mr2Mike said:

Cadence braking may be less effective, but at least I wouldn't just keep pumping the brakes irrespective of whether I needed to after a slight lock up like my ZS (and it seems plenty of other cars) did. Quite simply a human driver was way better than that ABS system in many situations, something which is almost certainly not true of more modern cars.

You really believe that?

[cptsideways]

Ozzie Osmond said:

My understanding is that F1 drivers are "the best in the world".

Strange isn't it that Bernie had to ban ABS....

It was a driver aid

[Mr2Mike]

Zod said:

You really believe that?

I don't have to simply 'believe' it, I experienced it first hand.

Tunku said:

And what makes brakes work?

Your foot, usually

[Zod]

Mr2Mike said:

Zod said:

You really believe that?

I don't have to simply 'believe' it, I experienced it first hand.

I think I may have misread your post as saying that human braking is better than ABS, when really you were talking about one older system.

[Mr2Mike]

Zod said:

I think I may have misread your post as saying that human braking is better than ABS, when really you were talking about one older system.

Yes exactly this. I'm sure even the old ABS was superior in some situations, but silly things like hitting an expansion strip in the road under braking would set it off and it would keep going (providing negligible braking effort) until you backed off and re-applied.

[zebedee]

itz_baseline said:

This. It's an MOT failure so needs sorting sooner or later, might as well be sooner.

as I said below, it has sorted itself out, so I'm glad I didn't pay for a diagnostic. Incidentally in the meantime I braked many times and went round many wet corners and I didn't crash or die, not even once!

[Ari]

zebedee said:

as I said below, it has sorted itself out, so I'm glad I didn't pay for a diagnostic. Incidentally in the meantime I braked many times and went round many wet corners and I didn't crash or die, not even once!

Did you need your seatbelt? Because if you didn't need that either then by exactly the same logic, why even bother wearing it?

[Ozzie Osmond]

Ari said:

Did you need your seatbelt? Because if you didn't need that either then by exactly the same logic, why even bother wearing it?

^^^ This.

My ABS is very rarely activated. On the occasions when it's kicked in I've been very glad of it!!

[rally services]

gentlemen
i wan't to throw another spanner into your disscuion

what about EBD electronic brakeforce distrubition
it has been the primary use of abs systems for some time now
when braking the abs dectects which wheel has the greatest bracking effect to road grip and distrubites the braking accordingly

youtube has a video showing how this works on a landrover discovery
i think you should take a look

[GravelBen]

Ozzie Osmond said:

My ABS is very rarely activated. On the occasions when it's kicked in I've been very glad of it!!

Have jumped straight to last page so I'm not sure if this a necro-thread or not, but here goes...

The vast majority of occasions mine has activated I wish it hadn't - some examples of said situations:

(a)While gently braking and gradually slowing down a snowy hill, increased braking a tiny fraction to hit ABS trigger point and the car accelerated, no control. Off brakes, ease back on and it slowed again. Due to plenty of space, repeat exercise several times to confirm effects.

(b)Downhill into tight corner on gravel road (especially if corrugated) - ABS gives virtually zero deceleration regardless of what you do with the pedal, but you can slow the car much better with the handbrake.

Now I'm sure newer systems are better (mine are 10+ yrs old, like many on the road) but the point is, it doesn't matter how fast computers react or how many input and output channels they have if you're in a situation they're not programmed to deal with.


ETA: Oh it is an old thread. Never mind, as you were.

Edited by GravelBen on Friday 31st May 08:04

[RacerMike]

rally services said:

gentlemen
i wan't to throw another spanner into your disscuion

what about EBD electronic brakeforce distrubition
it has been the primary use of abs systems for some time now
when braking the abs dectects which wheel has the greatest bracking effect to road grip and distrubites the braking accordingly

youtube has a video showing how this works on a landrover discovery
i think you should take a look

I'm not really a fan of EBD. Once upon a time, when ABS controllers were very basic, it made sense, but these days, with better modulation from faster pumps and considerably more powerful processors capable of calculating the Mue level at each wheel, the ABS on it's own does a better job and avoids the brake pedal corruption you get from EBD. When driving only moderately spiritedly in my Mk5 GTI, I get pedal knocks, bumps and hardness all the time. It's horrible!

And...ultimately, if you size the brakes correctly in the first place (front to back), you shouldn't really need it! I still don't really get why so many magazine reviews specifically detail EBD alongside ABS! There are 20 or 30 other more important functions they never lift!