RE: PH Blog: is Shed motoring doomed?
Discussion
The Jolly Todger said:
Won't the bigger issue for future shedmen be the current push towards smaller capacity turbocharged engines? Surely these have far more chance of becoming economically unviable to repair as they get older compared to the N/A cars?
Why....?It's only a turbo, not a Saturn V rocket assembly.
For a start it's a mechanical part not a box of electrickery of some description. There are plenty of turbo recondition/remanufacture firms around that will do exchange jobs on most turbo units, and a quite a resonable rate.
scubadude said:
Complexity not withstanding its the parts and availability that kills modern cars IMO.
When the electric windows on my car packed up it wasn't hard to strip off the complex doorcard, speakers, switches and lift mechanism but the tiny controller wasn't available anywhere, no breaker had bothered retaining such a tiny component and the manufacturer would only supply it as part of the £300 lifter mechanism. At one point I had to drive to a main dealer to get the window closed because there was no other way to close it!
Its highly likely IMO that the shed's of today are the sheds of tomorrow, if they are simple enough to maintain they always will be.
Theres a guy on ebay refurbishes your own for about £28 all in.When the electric windows on my car packed up it wasn't hard to strip off the complex doorcard, speakers, switches and lift mechanism but the tiny controller wasn't available anywhere, no breaker had bothered retaining such a tiny component and the manufacturer would only supply it as part of the £300 lifter mechanism. At one point I had to drive to a main dealer to get the window closed because there was no other way to close it!
Its highly likely IMO that the shed's of today are the sheds of tomorrow, if they are simple enough to maintain they always will be.
scubadude said:
Complexity not withstanding its the parts and availability that kills modern cars IMO.
When the electric windows on my car packed up it wasn't hard to strip off the complex doorcard, speakers, switches and lift mechanism but the tiny controller wasn't available anywhere, no breaker had bothered retaining such a tiny component and the manufacturer would only supply it as part of the £300 lifter mechanism. At one point I had to drive to a main dealer to get the window closed because there was no other way to close it!
Its highly likely IMO that the shed's of today are the sheds of tomorrow, if they are simple enough to maintain they always will be.
When the electric windows on my car packed up it wasn't hard to strip off the complex doorcard, speakers, switches and lift mechanism but the tiny controller wasn't available anywhere, no breaker had bothered retaining such a tiny component and the manufacturer would only supply it as part of the £300 lifter mechanism. At one point I had to drive to a main dealer to get the window closed because there was no other way to close it!
Its highly likely IMO that the shed's of today are the sheds of tomorrow, if they are simple enough to maintain they always will be.
There's certainly something in it, the list of things to go wrong that can lead to write of inducing 'big bills' that just didn't exist before is growing and growing. Dual mass flywheels than mean a clutch going is a £1k+ job, ECU failures, timing chains wearing out.
Just look at the Ford 1.0 Turbo 3 pot we were all calling the saviour of the hot hatch only a couple of months ago, it didn't take long to discover that yes it had the power of the 1.6 it was replacing, but it actually weighed more and more importantly to this discussion cost 3 or 4 times as much, OK, it's rare for anyone to replace a knackered engine on a shed with a brand new one from the factory but you have to accept that this new engine is more complex than the 1.6 it replaces and parts cost more which shortens the financially viable life of the car.
IMHO Car makers have decided on a 6-10 year lifespan for their vehicles, enough so not to put off new buyers, or cause them to worry about resale values.
Just look at the Ford 1.0 Turbo 3 pot we were all calling the saviour of the hot hatch only a couple of months ago, it didn't take long to discover that yes it had the power of the 1.6 it was replacing, but it actually weighed more and more importantly to this discussion cost 3 or 4 times as much, OK, it's rare for anyone to replace a knackered engine on a shed with a brand new one from the factory but you have to accept that this new engine is more complex than the 1.6 it replaces and parts cost more which shortens the financially viable life of the car.
IMHO Car makers have decided on a 6-10 year lifespan for their vehicles, enough so not to put off new buyers, or cause them to worry about resale values.
I'm a bit of a motoring Luddite, I still regard overhead cams as exotic...
BUT
I don't actually agree that complexity is the problem here.
That is, unless that complexity is given too much exclusivity. As long as IP is reasonably open it really can't be that tough to fabricate a small, generic "black box" with suitable adapters for appropriate connectors and a simple interface to drop a bit of software into it. Better still if the industry banded together and adopted a standardised unit at construction phase.
Obviously you'd never get complete coverage, you'd always have mavericks like Apple (ignoring the OHA standard micro USB as an example) or Ettore Bugatti with his rogue screw threads but that doesn't detract from the power that a good set of standards gives the consumer.
Hell, as long as IP law keeps up with tech advances we could be 3d printing those new electrical gubbins and downloading the software to run them within a few years. Wouldn't that be nice?
BUT
I don't actually agree that complexity is the problem here.
That is, unless that complexity is given too much exclusivity. As long as IP is reasonably open it really can't be that tough to fabricate a small, generic "black box" with suitable adapters for appropriate connectors and a simple interface to drop a bit of software into it. Better still if the industry banded together and adopted a standardised unit at construction phase.
Obviously you'd never get complete coverage, you'd always have mavericks like Apple (ignoring the OHA standard micro USB as an example) or Ettore Bugatti with his rogue screw threads but that doesn't detract from the power that a good set of standards gives the consumer.
Hell, as long as IP law keeps up with tech advances we could be 3d printing those new electrical gubbins and downloading the software to run them within a few years. Wouldn't that be nice?
The biggest threat to shed motoring, or bangernomics as it is sometimes known, is Brussels I fear.
The European control freaks have got it in for old cars. Wasn't there talk of banning old cars from the streets of Paris as a test of the concept?
Expect the forced, compulsory installation of electric hybrids sometime in the next decade or so.
Welcome to my dystopian nightmare.
Bloody socialists.
The European control freaks have got it in for old cars. Wasn't there talk of banning old cars from the streets of Paris as a test of the concept?
Expect the forced, compulsory installation of electric hybrids sometime in the next decade or so.
Welcome to my dystopian nightmare.
Bloody socialists.
IDrinkPetrol said:
I'm a bit of a motoring Luddite, I still regard overhead cams as exotic...
BUT
I don't actually agree that complexity is the problem here.
That is, unless that complexity is given too much exclusivity. As long as IP is reasonably open it really can't be that tough to fabricate a small, generic "black box" with suitable adapters for appropriate connectors and a simple interface to drop a bit of software into it. Better still if the industry banded together and adopted a standardised unit at construction phase.
Obviously you'd never get complete coverage, you'd always have mavericks like Apple (ignoring the OHA standard micro USB as an example) or Ettore Bugatti with his rogue screw threads but that doesn't detract from the power that a good set of standards gives the consumer.
Hell, as long as IP law keeps up with tech advances we could be 3d printing those new electrical gubbins and downloading the software to run them within a few years. Wouldn't that be nice?
This! There will definitly be people finding ways to fix most issues, as long as they are able to get access. Manufacturers trying to keep their electronics secret are the biggest threat I think.BUT
I don't actually agree that complexity is the problem here.
That is, unless that complexity is given too much exclusivity. As long as IP is reasonably open it really can't be that tough to fabricate a small, generic "black box" with suitable adapters for appropriate connectors and a simple interface to drop a bit of software into it. Better still if the industry banded together and adopted a standardised unit at construction phase.
Obviously you'd never get complete coverage, you'd always have mavericks like Apple (ignoring the OHA standard micro USB as an example) or Ettore Bugatti with his rogue screw threads but that doesn't detract from the power that a good set of standards gives the consumer.
Hell, as long as IP law keeps up with tech advances we could be 3d printing those new electrical gubbins and downloading the software to run them within a few years. Wouldn't that be nice?
The sheds of tomorrow are the sheds of today - very cheap to keep a shed running long term if you pick the right one.
Old school indirect diesel turbo or a multipoint petrol engine with no turbo would be my choicey picks. Gearbox - manual without a DMF. Pick it right and there are no big bills looming. Pick one without too many airbags and even that ain't such a big problem. 1995-2001 is about the zenith for minimal electrics and maximum reliability/corrosion protection, IMO they've all taken a bit of a step back since then. Also if you get a big engine you escape the CO2/km monster in the closet being pre2001.
Old school indirect diesel turbo or a multipoint petrol engine with no turbo would be my choicey picks. Gearbox - manual without a DMF. Pick it right and there are no big bills looming. Pick one without too many airbags and even that ain't such a big problem. 1995-2001 is about the zenith for minimal electrics and maximum reliability/corrosion protection, IMO they've all taken a bit of a step back since then. Also if you get a big engine you escape the CO2/km monster in the closet being pre2001.
bmthnick1981 said:
W124 said:
RichTBiscuit said:
Far too pessimistic man!
People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
Absolutely. The electronic parts are just parts - supply and demand will operate as it always does for cars this side of Big Mercs and BM's. I do think, though, that really high end cars, with really rare and complex electronic units, like the Veyron or MPC/458's will be very hard to maintain. Hence the relative lack of value of 959's. Heaven only knows how anyone will keep a GTR on the road.People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
I agree with the theme in the article that many of the new gadgets being introduced by manufacturers are pointless. I dont need all of that s
t. Also agree re: the 172 Cup comments and it would be good if Dacia / Renault listened to this school of thought.
I always thought ECU controlled engines a black art until I read Dave Walkers book on Engine Management, now I'd far rather play about with a car's ECU than try to tune a carb setup.
Also, not all buyers spec every last bell and whistle on their cars, just as people avoid or replace certain things on their barges now for fear of expensive bork (air suspension for instance), so the shedmen of the future will look for their E class without Bambi Avoidance.
Edited by Mark Benson on Wednesday 9th January 15:06
IDrinkPetrol said:
I'm a bit of a motoring Luddite, I still regard overhead cams as exotic...
BUT
I don't actually agree that complexity is the problem here.
That is, unless that complexity is given too much exclusivity. As long as IP is reasonably open it really can't be that tough to fabricate a small, generic "black box" with suitable adapters for appropriate connectors and a simple interface to drop a bit of software into it. Better still if the industry banded together and adopted a standardised unit at construction phase.
Obviously you'd never get complete coverage, you'd always have mavericks like Apple (ignoring the OHA standard micro USB as an example) or Ettore Bugatti with his rogue screw threads but that doesn't detract from the power that a good set of standards gives the consumer.
Hell, as long as IP law keeps up with tech advances we could be 3d printing those new electrical gubbins and downloading the software to run them within a few years. Wouldn't that be nice?
^ Thanks for saving me the effort of writing this!BUT
I don't actually agree that complexity is the problem here.
That is, unless that complexity is given too much exclusivity. As long as IP is reasonably open it really can't be that tough to fabricate a small, generic "black box" with suitable adapters for appropriate connectors and a simple interface to drop a bit of software into it. Better still if the industry banded together and adopted a standardised unit at construction phase.
Obviously you'd never get complete coverage, you'd always have mavericks like Apple (ignoring the OHA standard micro USB as an example) or Ettore Bugatti with his rogue screw threads but that doesn't detract from the power that a good set of standards gives the consumer.
Hell, as long as IP law keeps up with tech advances we could be 3d printing those new electrical gubbins and downloading the software to run them within a few years. Wouldn't that be nice?
Of course, the manufacturers won't standardise - that'd destroy their aftermarket profits. It'd take regulation to change that.
We have standards for wipers, bulbs, fuses, fluids, tyres and ice and that's about it. And even then some of the car manufacturers come up with fancy oils, model specific tyres etc. Somebody (environmentalists?) needs to shame them. IMHO wiring looms, connectors and electrical components should be standardised and modularised. The same goes for trim fasteners and various other simple components. And while they're at it they should add at least 20cm to the engine bay of most cars, so we can work on them without skinning our knuckles!
Rant over!
IDrinkPetrol said:
I'm a bit of a motoring Luddite, I still regard overhead cams as exotic...
BUT
I don't actually agree that complexity is the problem here.
That is, unless that complexity is given too much exclusivity. As long as IP is reasonably open it really can't be that tough to fabricate a small, generic "black box" with suitable adapters for appropriate connectors and a simple interface to drop a bit of software into it. Better still if the industry banded together and adopted a standardised unit at construction phase.
Obviously you'd never get complete coverage, you'd always have mavericks like Apple (ignoring the OHA standard micro USB as an example) or Ettore Bugatti with his rogue screw threads but that doesn't detract from the power that a good set of standards gives the consumer.
Hell, as long as IP law keeps up with tech advances we could be 3d printing those new electrical gubbins and downloading the software to run them within a few years. Wouldn't that be nice?
Having a fault code read is useful but doesn't fix a problem. I agree with P-Jay.BUT
I don't actually agree that complexity is the problem here.
That is, unless that complexity is given too much exclusivity. As long as IP is reasonably open it really can't be that tough to fabricate a small, generic "black box" with suitable adapters for appropriate connectors and a simple interface to drop a bit of software into it. Better still if the industry banded together and adopted a standardised unit at construction phase.
Obviously you'd never get complete coverage, you'd always have mavericks like Apple (ignoring the OHA standard micro USB as an example) or Ettore Bugatti with his rogue screw threads but that doesn't detract from the power that a good set of standards gives the consumer.
Hell, as long as IP law keeps up with tech advances we could be 3d printing those new electrical gubbins and downloading the software to run them within a few years. Wouldn't that be nice?
Even now a lot of MK3 Mondeo must be being scrapped when the DMF's go and the garage quotes silly money. That a decent car gets binned because the clutch goes is a silly situation.
Edited by SuperHangOn on Wednesday 9th January 15:52
As a nice example I had the clutch on my 57 plate honda done a few months back 2.2 engine - new clutch £300. New DMF £600. fitting ~£300. Found a few places that could do it a bit cheaper with pattern parts etc but with the DMF was still >£750 all in. So when that car gets near the £1000 mark and needs a new clutch it'll be going to scrap without a doubt. Luckily I only needed a friction disc, bearing and pressure plate combo.
It very much limits the life of the car, hence my comment about keeping todays cheap to fix sheds going. Old MGs have proven its possible, full set of midget brakes <£100, 4 tyres <£120.
It very much limits the life of the car, hence my comment about keeping todays cheap to fix sheds going. Old MGs have proven its possible, full set of midget brakes <£100, 4 tyres <£120.
Mark Benson said:
...I read Dave Walkers book on Engine Management...
I wouldn't mind a crack at that... Seems a liiiitle pricey though: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/185960835...
renrut said:
As a nice example I had the clutch on my 57 plate honda done a few months back 2.2 engine - new clutch £300. New DMF £600. fitting ~£300. Found a few places that could do it a bit cheaper with pattern parts etc but with the DMF was still >£750 all in. So when that car gets near the £1000 mark and needs a new clutch it'll be going to scrap without a doubt. Luckily I only needed a friction disc, bearing and pressure plate combo.
ECP have an LUK DMF for that car for £462, I'd imagine with trade discounts etc it could be had a chunk cheaper. Since LUK are a major OEM supplier of DMFs I wouldn't have a concern over quality. There's actually 20% off everything at ECP at the moment so it's only £370. Again looking on ECP Mondeo Mk3 diesel LUK DMFs are between £207 and £349 depending on the exact engine and that's before the 20% discount.
Just pointing out a lot of people think DMFs still automatically equal megabucks but the prices have come down a lot especially on the more common ones as economies of scale factor in.
Exactly the same will happen with most new car technologies IMO. I've been hearing about the death of older cars/home mechanics pretty much since I was into cars, fuel injection, ABS, airbags, stability control, catalytic convertors, ECUs, DPFs, DMFs, they were all going to kill off older barges. None has yet, so I remain optimistic. I have a code reader now in my toolkit, I think it's a vital tool for anyone interested in more modern cars.
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