RE: PH Blog: is Shed motoring doomed?
Discussion
It's irrelevant. In 20-30 years time you won't own a car but lease it from the manufacturer.
Once leased finished it's crushed and re-cycled ensuring no car older than 5 years on the road. I honestly cannot see the majority owning cars in the future just paying a monthly fee to hire one.
Once leased finished it's crushed and re-cycled ensuring no car older than 5 years on the road. I honestly cannot see the majority owning cars in the future just paying a monthly fee to hire one.
People will just change how they fix things. Many people are DIY fixing many electrical systems which you may have written off in the past.
i.e AYC systems for evos used to be really expensive to replace, but now you can DIY fix them your self with kits for about 10% the cost of a new unit. Many people now have code readers or laptops with the relevant software to read codes, clear codes, turn features on and off, remap etc.
i.e AYC systems for evos used to be really expensive to replace, but now you can DIY fix them your self with kits for about 10% the cost of a new unit. Many people now have code readers or laptops with the relevant software to read codes, clear codes, turn features on and off, remap etc.
Crunchy Nutter said:
RichTBiscuit said:
Far too pessimistic man!
People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
No way. Those sorts of spares won't exactly be the matter of a cheeky fiver at a scrapyard. You'll be talking big bucks relative to basic mechanical spare parts now.People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
The seat base unit only came as a complete assembly at £1200 just for the part.
Edited by RTH on Wednesday 9th January 17:23
Some very valid points, I'll try to sum it up:
Manufacturers withholding electronic diagnosis equipment and a full error code list to the general public at an affordable price.
Breakers yards ripping out the large items such as engines and gearboxes, but dropping all the smaller items on the ground, just to be trod in the mud. Also due to health and safety customers are unable to scrounge the part they want, instead they must stay by the counter and wait to be served the wrong part.
Car components being buried deep within a cramped engine bay, so the need for a ramp or excessive labor costs to get to the failed part is needed.
Complex dual clutch gearboxes making a re-build cost more than the engine rebuild.
Modern MOT finding fault on issues that are not a direct problem to road safety.
However we do have the use of the internet now, which does help a lot!
20 years ago we had simple engines with large engine bays which could be easily worked on, but no internet.
Today we have horribly cramped engine bays full of electronic censors that can't be removed, cleaned and put pack, but we have the internet and eBay.
If we had the best of both worlds, we'd be laughing!
Manufacturers withholding electronic diagnosis equipment and a full error code list to the general public at an affordable price.
Breakers yards ripping out the large items such as engines and gearboxes, but dropping all the smaller items on the ground, just to be trod in the mud. Also due to health and safety customers are unable to scrounge the part they want, instead they must stay by the counter and wait to be served the wrong part.
Car components being buried deep within a cramped engine bay, so the need for a ramp or excessive labor costs to get to the failed part is needed.
Complex dual clutch gearboxes making a re-build cost more than the engine rebuild.
Modern MOT finding fault on issues that are not a direct problem to road safety.
However we do have the use of the internet now, which does help a lot!
20 years ago we had simple engines with large engine bays which could be easily worked on, but no internet.
Today we have horribly cramped engine bays full of electronic censors that can't be removed, cleaned and put pack, but we have the internet and eBay.
If we had the best of both worlds, we'd be laughing!
Tib said:
Mark Benson said:
...I read Dave Walkers book on Engine Management...
I wouldn't mind a crack at that... Seems a liiiitle pricey though: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/185960835...
RTH said:
A friend had the electric seat adjustment fail in his Mercedes Coupe in the back position , so that his wife was unable to reach the pedals.
The seat base unit only came as a complete assembly at £1200 just for the part.
I would bet that if it was taken apart, someone good with electrics could identify the failed component and replace it. Not commonplace though I doubt.The seat base unit only came as a complete assembly at £1200 just for the part.
Edited by RTH on Wednesday 9th January 17:23
My heart sank a little when I opened the bonnet on my little Cinquecento, Tiny little 899cc lump, some leads, a little air filter and a bloody engine management box :/
I went to college back in 1998 to study Auto Engineering, we learned about carburettors and how to fix components.
I don't think a lot that I learned back then is even relevant nowadays, the motor industry has come such a long way in such a short time.
When does a shed stop being a shed?
I went to college back in 1998 to study Auto Engineering, we learned about carburettors and how to fix components.
I don't think a lot that I learned back then is even relevant nowadays, the motor industry has come such a long way in such a short time.
When does a shed stop being a shed?
RichTBiscuit said:
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
Sadly many modern controllers contain a PROM that, upon being installed, will be irreversibly written with the chassis number of the host vehicle. From that point on it can never work in anything other than the car it came from.The thinking behind it is to reduce parts theft (only a minor problem in the UK but not necessarily worldwide) but it also has the unfortunate side-effect of destroying any hope of getting, say, a new door control module from your local pick a part.
IDrinkPetrol said:
I'm a bit of a motoring Luddite, I still regard overhead cams as exotic...
BUT
I don't actually agree that complexity is the problem here.
That is, unless that complexity is given too much exclusivity. As long as IP is reasonably open it really can't be that tough to fabricate a small, generic "black box" with suitable adapters for appropriate connectors and a simple interface to drop a bit of software into it. Better still if the industry banded together and adopted a standardised unit at construction phase.
Obviously you'd never get complete coverage, you'd always have mavericks like Apple (ignoring the OHA standard micro USB as an example) or Ettore Bugatti with his rogue screw threads but that doesn't detract from the power that a good set of standards gives the consumer.
Hell, as long as IP law keeps up with tech advances we could be 3d printing those new electrical gubbins and downloading the software to run them within a few years. Wouldn't that be nice?
Pretty much. I imagine it's not beyond the realms of possibility for someone to get a Raspberry Pi or future equivalent to emulate whatever computer has packed in- or at least give the same outputs for the same inputs.BUT
I don't actually agree that complexity is the problem here.
That is, unless that complexity is given too much exclusivity. As long as IP is reasonably open it really can't be that tough to fabricate a small, generic "black box" with suitable adapters for appropriate connectors and a simple interface to drop a bit of software into it. Better still if the industry banded together and adopted a standardised unit at construction phase.
Obviously you'd never get complete coverage, you'd always have mavericks like Apple (ignoring the OHA standard micro USB as an example) or Ettore Bugatti with his rogue screw threads but that doesn't detract from the power that a good set of standards gives the consumer.
Hell, as long as IP law keeps up with tech advances we could be 3d printing those new electrical gubbins and downloading the software to run them within a few years. Wouldn't that be nice?
RichTBiscuit said:
Far too pessimistic man!
People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
Yep, on old stuff. Funny enough I had to replace my horn last year, it was held on by one nut, with one plug at the back (£12 for a proper PSA horn too).People said the same things about cars like my old e38 BMW... The old barge has literally about 30 different electronic 'black boxes' to control the TV, phone, sat nav, etc etc
The reality is that future shedmen will continue as they always have done - buy replacement electronic black box from ebay\scrapyard and carry on their merry way.
In many ways fixing electronic components can easier than mechanical ones..... simply unplug and replace!
The difference being that future Bargeman will probably need more than a passing knowledge of diagnostics software, and a suitable laptop. It's simply new stuff to learn... no worries!
renrut said:
The sheds of tomorrow are the sheds of today - very cheap to keep a shed running long term if you pick the right one.
Old school indirect diesel turbo or a multipoint petrol engine with no turbo would be my choicey picks. Gearbox - manual without a DMF. Pick it right and there are no big bills looming. Pick one without too many airbags and even that ain't such a big problem. 1995-2001 is about the zenith for minimal electrics and maximum reliability/corrosion protection, IMO they've all taken a bit of a step back since then. Also if you get a big engine you escape the CO2/km monster in the closet being pre2001.
Kind of why I've kept my old peugeot for so long.Old school indirect diesel turbo or a multipoint petrol engine with no turbo would be my choicey picks. Gearbox - manual without a DMF. Pick it right and there are no big bills looming. Pick one without too many airbags and even that ain't such a big problem. 1995-2001 is about the zenith for minimal electrics and maximum reliability/corrosion protection, IMO they've all taken a bit of a step back since then. Also if you get a big engine you escape the CO2/km monster in the closet being pre2001.
And I did fix the washing machine myself as well when it went wrong, there's not much to them either.
Another issue is the loss of old school diagnosis and that "proper" mechanics are a dying breed. Anyone can plug a code reader in and research the code. Problem arises when for example, I had a V8V non start. List as long as your arm, lots of costly bits. Turned out the starter fuse had popped but gave false codes with it.
My fleet includes an 02 transit diesel - fingers crossed the pump never goes... a 98 civic 5 door and an 89 crx. Even then they all have ecu's and a major fault would render them spares...
My fleet includes an 02 transit diesel - fingers crossed the pump never goes... a 98 civic 5 door and an 89 crx. Even then they all have ecu's and a major fault would render them spares...
With these feet said:
Another issue is the loss of old school diagnosis and that "proper" mechanics are a dying breed. Anyone can plug a code reader in and research the code.
This is the issue. I had a problem with my Alfa V6 – engine warning light on and it lacked power. Went to Alfa dealer to get a fault code read and the list of parts it "could" be was extensive, ranging from new air filter to air-flow sensor, lambda sensor to injectors. I pointed out that I already knew what it "could" be and that I was hoping they, as experts with all the electronics available, would be able to actually tell me what it was. Turned out their method of "fixing" it was the same as mine – replace each part in order of cost until the fault went away. Difference being I don't charge £50 per hour for my guess-which-part-to-replace-next time.Complexity isn't the killer for next-gen sheds. It will be the lack of availability of spare parts and the lack of cross-compatibility between models. Something as simple as a cracked windscreen on a rare-ish model will see the car car scrapped – one for Renault Avantime is around £2000 now, so a mis-placed stone chip will see the car crushed.
300bhp/ton said:
electric heating, that's a new one 
Been in many cars for a few years now. 
Supplemental heating when the engine is cold, so you can de-mist your screen.And as for the original article... If you're going to re-create a hot hatch, don't re-create anything by Renault! You think the 172/182 is good? Go out and drive an escort XR3i, a Mk2 Golf GTi or any Pug GTi before 2001. They're proper hot hatches that don't feel as if all the controls are made of plastic!
boyse7en has a point, I was doing some work on my gf's '97 Proton Persona (please don't laugh) and the rear fog lamp holder was busted. A new one from Proton was £300 (!!). Upon hearing that quote I swiftly replaced the receiver and rang around dozens of scrapyards, even one 300 miles away with the hope a friend who lived there could collect the part. Sadly to no avail and ended up getting some generic holder for £4 and bodging it back in with mastick and a knife.
With VAG's MQB platform, which I believe means the majority of the vehicles produced with it will also share the same switches, bolts etc as well as its basic architecture as a cost saving measure for the manufacture. It may be a further blessing for any Shedman to go hunting for a number of scrap cars that may contain the switch/ relay/ electronic unit that is required. And it may create bigger profit for the scrapyard owners to make more effort to keep these small switches. As another poster stated, £1200 for a seat, or replace the £2.50 part sold on for around £6 by the scrappie?
With VAG's MQB platform, which I believe means the majority of the vehicles produced with it will also share the same switches, bolts etc as well as its basic architecture as a cost saving measure for the manufacture. It may be a further blessing for any Shedman to go hunting for a number of scrap cars that may contain the switch/ relay/ electronic unit that is required. And it may create bigger profit for the scrapyard owners to make more effort to keep these small switches. As another poster stated, £1200 for a seat, or replace the £2.50 part sold on for around £6 by the scrappie?
The person who does invent the generic black box that can turn an over complex computer laden non working ( because one of the countless black boxes has had a hiccup)fully depreciated ( ie now worth nowt as a result of said hiccup), executive car into a simple driving machine again will make his fortune.
A friend has a mid range BMW that has its own email address so he can email google maps to it ready for his journey. Even he thinks its ridiculous. Just imagine what damage a targetted emailed computer virus could do to that car.
A problem in the Idrive unit will render that car scrappage, unless there's a guy who can bypass all the factory fitted gubbins and simplify the system.
In my opinion it wont be the engine ECU's stopping cars being run into their old age ( you can get an aftermarket ECU to run almost any engine I'd wager) it will be faulty computer controlled body, suspension and information/driver management systems that render them scrap.
I do hope that someone, somewhere, is beavering away with his soldering iron, reverse engineering complex systems down to basics, sticking it all in a black box and thus ending the tyranny of the dashboard warning lights.
Cheers,
Tony
A friend has a mid range BMW that has its own email address so he can email google maps to it ready for his journey. Even he thinks its ridiculous. Just imagine what damage a targetted emailed computer virus could do to that car.
A problem in the Idrive unit will render that car scrappage, unless there's a guy who can bypass all the factory fitted gubbins and simplify the system.
In my opinion it wont be the engine ECU's stopping cars being run into their old age ( you can get an aftermarket ECU to run almost any engine I'd wager) it will be faulty computer controlled body, suspension and information/driver management systems that render them scrap.
I do hope that someone, somewhere, is beavering away with his soldering iron, reverse engineering complex systems down to basics, sticking it all in a black box and thus ending the tyranny of the dashboard warning lights.
Cheers,
Tony
Tony427 said:
A friend has a mid range BMW that has its own email address so he can email google maps to it ready for his journey. Even he thinks its ridiculous. Just imagine what damage a targetted emailed computer virus could do to that car.
Already been done - www.ted.com/talks/avi_rubin_all_your_devices_can_b.... Skip to 4:47 for the car hacking.Tony427 said:
I do hope that someone, somewhere, is beavering away with his soldering iron, reverse engineering complex systems down to basics, sticking it all in a black box and thus ending the tyranny of the dashboard warning lights.
Cheers,
Tony
I sure that is already happening. Google arduino engine management.Cheers,
Tony
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