RE: Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 revised
Discussion
boundary1840 said:
I have spent two days trying to get a post like yours across about the yank tubs and i think i am on a no win fight, they seem to think they are all so wonderfull.
TBH, I am not certain what you are trying to say.Jimbeaux said:
So, you would prefer something more sensible, like an even bigger, costlier,etc. Range Rover, etc. again? 
rutthenut said:
Have run a V8 grand for a fair few years now. Main reason for purchase was towing, but adding a decent exhaust system means that car easily brings a smile to my face.
Love the idea of an SRT-8 (an older one, new stuff out of my price range) but the central exhaust means no tow bar. Unless a new exhaust is fitted. But the spec sheet shows a pathetic towing capacity. I take it that will be because it has a different load capacity for the higher-speed rated tyres?
A standard dealer supplied GC tow bar fits an SRT8, just needs a slight mod to the rear exhaust hanger to make space. The electrics are different,so I gave up on those and the excellent dealer in Yeovil sorted them.Love the idea of an SRT-8 (an older one, new stuff out of my price range) but the central exhaust means no tow bar. Unless a new exhaust is fitted. But the spec sheet shows a pathetic towing capacity. I take it that will be because it has a different load capacity for the higher-speed rated tyres?
Simply the best tow vehicle I have ever used, my favourite sport is embarrassing "sports" cars, 4 up with the rally car on the back !
Stops well too !
AdeV said:
Captain Cadillac said:
Because a European V8 of similar capacity is a 32v DOHC affair that's bolted into a $100,000 car and its a $25,000 engine if it needs to be replaced while the 5.7 can likely be bought brand new for $4,000 and is bolted into a $39,000 car.
Not necessarily, but I take your point. The 5.0 BMW V8 in the old M5 made ~400hp, I don't know what the replacement cost was when new.Captain Cadillac said:
Heck, you can buy a BRAND NEW, not rebuilt Chevy small block from your local GM dealer (block, heads..no intake but fully assembled and ready to run) that makes 250hp. For....
Just over £1,000
It'll take 200k miles of abuse as well.
I guess you mean the LS1? ISTR that's over 4ltrs isn't it?Just over £1,000
It'll take 200k miles of abuse as well.
Captain Cadillac said:
Oh, and Our fuel isn't watered down, that's an urban myth. We calculate octane ratings by averaging RON and MON, Europeans use the RON number only. Our "Premium" fuel is generally 93 octane. In Europe that's usually 98-100 octane fuel.
Fair enough, I didn't know that.The GM engine that I was mentioning was a good old Small Block 350, 5.7L. You can buy 350s that produce a LOT more power, also from the fine folks at Chevrolet, but they're more money. It's the same basic engine that was produced from 1955 until rather recently.
Anyhow, America is much like Australia/NZ where inexpensive cars are available with V8 power. I can't think of a reasonably priced / mainstream V8 powered European car built in the last, oh, 25 years. Perhaps the SD1 Rover 3500 came close but that wasn't exactly a cheap car.
boundary1840 said:
I have spent two days trying to get a post like yours across about the yank tubs and i think i am on a no win fight, they seem to think they are all so wonderfull.
POST BELOW other peoples comments.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Jimbeaux said:
So, you would prefer something more sensible, like an even bigger, costlier,etc. Range Rover, etc. again?
Do you actually have any experience of American cars and are you actually able to offer anything substantial and not just opinion based to support your comments?
AdeV said:
Where are you getting your figures? Best weight comparison I've seen is an LS1 weighs "about" the same as the 1UZ-FE (around 400lbs, about 180kg in French). Dimensionally the 1UZ-FE is marginally smaller than the LS1 (23"H 26"L 26" W vs 27.5"H 27.5"L 30"W). I can't find any data for the 5.7 Hemi, so if you would please cite your source I would be most grateful.
I'll be honest I'd need to check figures, but accurate figures are hard to find as you never know if it's dressed or dry weights and if it includes the bellhousing or other ancillary devices. All I can say is the 1UZ-FE is quite tall and it's wide high up due to the DOHC configuration.This is mine one:
And I have a LS1 in my Camaro so I could measure them I guess.
quote=AdeV]
Maybe I'm just being a knob here, but I'm not quite sure what your point is? I have never compared the LS400 to the Jeep. I can't find any data on the Hemi engine, so I can't dispute your weight/power figures FOR THE ENGINE, although you appear to be wrong about the engine dimensions (unless I have accidentally not compared like with like). What IS your point, exactly, other than trying to make me look like a knob?
I was just trying to point out, that regardless of bhp per litre, it's total output that has more value in performance. i.e.
I'd much rather have a low bhp/litre engine that makes a lot of HP overall rather than a high bhp/litre engine that makes less overall. And only to support the fact that it's not that American's can't get high bhp/litre out of their engines, but they specifically choose not too for reasons already discussed.
AdeV said:
The 5.0 BMW V8 in the old M5 made ~400hp, I don't know what the replacement cost was when new.
Just as a point of note, the M5's engine was a superb engine, but remember it was fairly complex, has a special warm up routine and wasn't really a mass produced engine, it was one bespoke engine for the companies flagship performance model, sold in relatively low volumes.400bhp from 50 litres is only 80bhp/litre too despite all the fancy tech and multivalve technology.
Something like the Chevy LS1 or the 5.7 Hemi are common every day engines built on mass and not designed to be halo performance variants. For instance the Hemi is found in pick up trucks, Jeeps, station wagons, sports cars and sedans. All pretty much unchanged and Chrysler must have built more 5.7 Hemi's than Aston Martin has built cars in it's entire 100 year history.
360hp from 5.7 litres is still 63bhp/litre. Something like a brand new Mazda 3 1.6 with it's mass produced engine is only 65bhp/litre. So the state of tune of the engines is pretty similar really. It's just we are used to much smaller displacement.
300bhp/ton said:
Just as a point of note, the M5's engine was a superb engine, but remember it was fairly complex, has a special warm up routine and wasn't really a mass produced engine, it was one bespoke engine for the companies flagship performance model, sold in relatively low volumes.
400bhp from 50 litres is only 80bhp/litre too despite all the fancy tech and multivalve technology.
Hmm. I didn't know about the warm-up procedure.... must admit, took an M5 engine, put a lightened flywheel on it, got shot of the VANOS malarkey, dry-sumped and with a proper free-breathing exhaust, mapped ECU, and I get almost 500BHP from it now. There's more available too, 600-650BHP with race cams, and I believe when it was in DTM fettle it would do 1000BHP, albeit requiring regular rebuilds at that point.400bhp from 50 litres is only 80bhp/litre too despite all the fancy tech and multivalve technology.
300bhp/ton said:
Something like the Chevy LS1 or the 5.7 Hemi are common every day engines built on mass and not designed to be halo performance variants. For instance the Hemi is found in pick up trucks, Jeeps, station wagons, sports cars and sedans. All pretty much unchanged and Chrysler must have built more 5.7 Hemi's than Aston Martin has built cars in it's entire 100 year history.
360hp from 5.7 litres is still 63bhp/litre. Something like a brand new Mazda 3 1.6 with it's mass produced engine is only 65bhp/litre. So the state of tune of the engines is pretty similar really. It's just we are used to much smaller displacement.
Fair comments.360hp from 5.7 litres is still 63bhp/litre. Something like a brand new Mazda 3 1.6 with it's mass produced engine is only 65bhp/litre. So the state of tune of the engines is pretty similar really. It's just we are used to much smaller displacement.
Hm, I'm wondering if I need to re-think my Granada re-engine project; currently planning to put a 1UZ-FE + supercharger in there, maybe I should go with an LSx or Hemi engine instead...
Argh, choices!
I'll probably stick with the 1UZ-FE for now, as I already have one ready to pull from its old Lexus home...
AdeV said:
Hmm. I didn't know about the warm-up procedure.... must admit, took an M5 engine, put a lightened flywheel on it, got shot of the VANOS malarkey, dry-sumped and with a proper free-breathing exhaust, mapped ECU, and I get almost 500BHP from it now. There's more available too, 600-650BHP with race cams, and I believe when it was in DTM fettle it would do 1000BHP, albeit requiring regular rebuilds at that point.
Curious, but how much would a set of cams be for such an engine?Personally I have no beef with such engines at all - I'm a pistonhead after all
But the cost side of the good ol OHV V8's does have lots of potential.
As a factory engine the 5.7 LS1's peak output was 405hp in the LS6 guise found in the C5 Z06. But to get power all that it needed was a different cam and different valve sizes. It revved to almost 7500rpm.
However in the after market a set of heads and a bigger cam and some bolt on mods (exhaust/intake) will see a 5.7 LS1 make near on 480+hp with relative ease. If you don't care about emissions then guys in the US get them up to around 95bhp/litre. It'll never match a DOHC on specific output, but the LS1 can support over 7 litres in displacement if you want. So no shortage of power.
But again it's a cost things:
http://www.texas-speed.com/p-1161-precision-race-c...
Something like that on a LS1 with a good exhaust would make some good power.
If you want forced induction, no probs too. I've seen 5.7 346ci's make upto 750rwhp with forged internals, h&c and a Procharger. There's some guys over on LS1tech.com running around 1200-1500hp on street motors!!
AdeV said:
Fair comments.
Hm, I'm wondering if I need to re-think my Granada re-engine project; currently planning to put a 1UZ-FE + supercharger in there, maybe I should go with an LSx or Hemi engine instead...
Argh, choices!
I'll probably stick with the 1UZ-FE for now, as I already have one ready to pull from its old Lexus home...
I like the 1UZ-FE (hence buying one too! Hm, I'm wondering if I need to re-think my Granada re-engine project; currently planning to put a 1UZ-FE + supercharger in there, maybe I should go with an LSx or Hemi engine instead...
Argh, choices!
I'll probably stick with the 1UZ-FE for now, as I already have one ready to pull from its old Lexus home...
) and from what I've read they are pretty good performers with FI or nitrous, it just gets pricey if you want to stick pure n/a and up the power. An LS1 will cost more to buy, but will offer more options for power. But guess it depends quite on how much power you want though.What supercharger are you planning on running?
AdeV said:
Hm, I'm wondering if I need to re-think my Granada re-engine project; currently planning to put a 1UZ-FE + supercharger in there, maybe I should go with an LSx or Hemi engine instead...
Argh, choices!
I'd go for a Ford V8 instead....even better choice, depending on which model Granada it is..?Argh, choices!
The Mk1 & 2 Granny's were designed at the outset for the option of fitting the small block Ford V8 - the fuel crisis of the mid 70's meant that never happened. Ford in the UK did make at least one V8 Granny Mk1
Small block Ford V8 is even more compact than the SBC. Not sure if more compact than a LS though.
Perhaps it's just me being an old git, but, the thought of a Granny with a Jap V8 makes me cringe
The LS is extremely compact - look how low the Camaro Gen 4 and Corvette bonnets are - and my modern Mustrang engine is bulky in comparison and the 32v version even more so. Not sure about the older small blocks, my L98 in the C4 wasn't particulary big though. I would have thought you're going to have to fabricate engine mounts either way.
aeropilot said:
I'd go for a Ford V8 instead....even better choice, depending on which model Granada it is..?
The Mk1 & 2 Granny's were designed at the outset for the option of fitting the small block Ford V8 - the fuel crisis of the mid 70's meant that never happened. Ford in the UK did make at least one V8 Granny Mk1
Small block Ford V8 is even more compact than the SBC. Not sure if more compact than a LS though.
Perhaps it's just me being an old git, but, the thought of a Granny with a Jap V8 makes me cringe
The old Ford V8 302 is a lovely motor and quite narrow, narrower than a Rover V8, although heavier being cast iron (unless you get an ultra pricey alloy Dart block). The only real issue with the 302 is it's a little out dated in terms of power output. Sure you can get them to perform, but in output they don't tend to better a Rover V8 by much in hp/litre sense, although you generally do have more litres to play with.The Mk1 & 2 Granny's were designed at the outset for the option of fitting the small block Ford V8 - the fuel crisis of the mid 70's meant that never happened. Ford in the UK did make at least one V8 Granny Mk1
Small block Ford V8 is even more compact than the SBC. Not sure if more compact than a LS though.
Perhaps it's just me being an old git, but, the thought of a Granny with a Jap V8 makes me cringe
But to get a 302 reliably to the same output as a standard LS1 would take a fair chunk of work and money. The LS1 is just a better starting point these days.
aeropilot said:
I'd go for a Ford V8 instead....even better choice, depending on which model Granada it is..?
The Mk1 & 2 Granny's were designed at the outset for the option of fitting the small block Ford V8 - the fuel crisis of the mid 70's meant that never happened. Ford in the UK did make at least one V8 Granny Mk1
Small block Ford V8 is even more compact than the SBC. Not sure if more compact than a LS though.
Perhaps it's just me being an old git, but, the thought of a Granny with a Jap V8 makes me cringe
It's a Mk2 estate, I've already got the Supra 'box/prop/diff/driveshafts, so mating an 1UZ-FE to the front is a doddle.The Mk1 & 2 Granny's were designed at the outset for the option of fitting the small block Ford V8 - the fuel crisis of the mid 70's meant that never happened. Ford in the UK did make at least one V8 Granny Mk1
Small block Ford V8 is even more compact than the SBC. Not sure if more compact than a LS though.
Perhaps it's just me being an old git, but, the thought of a Granny with a Jap V8 makes me cringe
I'd reject the 302 for the same reason as I'd reject the Rover engine - they are just too old. You could probably wring 350hp out of the Rover, but it would never be a practical road engine, not sure about the 302 as I've no knowledge of what's available for it.
The other option I was considering was another M5 engine/box. I do have a spare unit, but that is supposed to be going into another race car at some point in the future.
As for which supercharger - probably a Jaguar one, they seem to be readily available for little money. Of course, it might be worth me saving a world of pain and aluminium welding by just dropping a Jag lump into the Granny...
The purpose of the project, btw, is 3 fold: 1 to have a usable estate car (that isn't some boring diseasel snotter), that is 2) a complete hoot to drive on the roads, and 3) A hoot to hoon around a track - plenty of tail-out fun, I predict. So, ideally, around 400bhp, plenty of torques, acceptable fuel economy on the road, able to swallow a heavy load (oo-err) & tow a trailer, and yet still look like a boggo Mk2 granny estate...
300bhp/ton said:
AdeV said:
Hmm. I didn't know about the warm-up procedure.... must admit, took an M5 engine, put a lightened flywheel on it, got shot of the VANOS malarkey, dry-sumped and with a proper free-breathing exhaust, mapped ECU, and I get almost 500BHP from it now. There's more available too, 600-650BHP with race cams, and I believe when it was in DTM fettle it would do 1000BHP, albeit requiring regular rebuilds at that point.
Curious, but how much would a set of cams be for such an engine?300bhp/ton said:
Personally I have no beef with such engines at all - I'm a pistonhead after all
But the cost side of the good ol OHV V8's does have lots of potential.
As a factory engine the 5.7 LS1's peak output was 405hp in the LS6 guise found in the C5 Z06. But to get power all that it needed was a different cam and different valve sizes. It revved to almost 7500rpm.
Not to mention the easier maintenance. Are the LS engines belt, gear or chain driven?But the cost side of the good ol OHV V8's does have lots of potential.
As a factory engine the 5.7 LS1's peak output was 405hp in the LS6 guise found in the C5 Z06. But to get power all that it needed was a different cam and different valve sizes. It revved to almost 7500rpm.
Regarding emissions & the like, I have to be able to get through an MoT test, but that's all. If it turns out there's a secret switch under the dashboard which puts the CPU into "MOT mode", so be it...
Whichever engine I run, I will probably be using a DTA ECU (the S8 model), not the cheapest, but the engine wiring is pretty simples, and it's extremely programmable...
swerni said:
Jimbeaux said:
boundary1840 said:
I have spent two days trying to get a post like yours across about the yank tubs and i think i am on a no win fight, they seem to think they are all so wonderfull.
TBH, I am not certain what you are trying to say.Jimbeaux said:
So, you would prefer something more sensible, like an even bigger, costlier,etc. Range Rover, etc. again?
I think he's on day release.
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