RE: New BMWs shown at Detroit

[BS75]

Baddie said:

I'm not sure what differentiates the Germans anymore.

From who?
Italian cars? Many are still terrified of owning an Alfa that isn't in warranty.
English cars? Do we even still mass manufacture anything that isn't Japanese?
French cars? Previously flimsy tat that rusted and broke down a lot, now plastic tat that breaks down a lot.
Japanese cars? They're trying to be German but still aren't.
American cars? They're as American and big and American as ever (apart from the small plastic rebadged Italian shonk they export back to us).
German cars......maybe all the VAG offerings are more or less identical but Porsche and BMW are still sort of trying to retain some individuality. I think they're succeeding...just.

Baddie said:

gumsie said:

So they didn't research the Z8? Just thought they'd give it a go.

Is the Z8 the only BMW since the original M3 now worth more than its asking price?

I think the 507 might have gone up a notch or two since it came out.
Also the Z1. And the M1. And the CSL (batmobile, not the E46 thing). And a few others. Maybe.

ETA: didn't read that properly - SINCE the original M3. I'll give you that

Edited by BS75 on Tuesday 15th January 21:32

[thinfourth2]

So the 4 series is the 2 door version of the 4 door 3 series


Now we have the 4 door version of the 2 door 6 series which was the based on the 4 door 5 series


I find modern cars just too fking complicated

[Baddie]

BS75 said:

Baddie said:

I'm not sure what differentiates the Germans anymore.

From who?
Italian cars? Many are still terrified of owning an Alfa that isn't in warranty.
English cars? Do we even still mass manufacture anything that isn't Japanese?
French cars? Previously flimsy tat that rusted and broke down a lot, now plastic tat that breaks down a lot.
Japanese cars? They're trying to be German but still aren't.
American cars? They're as American and big and American as ever (apart from the small plastic rebadged Italian shonk they export back to us).
German cars......maybe all the VAG offerings are more or less identical but Porsche and BMW are still sort of trying to retain some individuality. I think they're succeeding...just.

Baddie said:

gumsie said:

So they didn't research the Z8? Just thought they'd give it a go.

Is the Z8 the only BMW since the original M3 now worth more than its asking price?

I think the 507 might have gone up a notch or two since it came out.
Also the Z1. And the M1. And the CSL (batmobile, not the E46 thing). And a few others. Maybe.

ETA: didn't read that properly - SINCE the original M3. I'll give you that

Edited by BS75 on Tuesday 15th January 21:32

I meant the difference between BMW / Merc / Audi, now converging their philosophies. A-Class now just another premium hatch, A1 ne A2, FWD 1 Series. Top-end engines TT V8's all round. Choosing between each is much less of a choice between different company outlooks than it used to be. Market research and computed design homing in on the optimum.

Can't blame them as its necessary for progress, just a bit less personal.

[Hellbound]

Baddie said:

.... homing in on the optimum.

Can't blame them as its necessary for progress...

That's nature in a nut shell though. And as humans we're slowly homing in on the optimum way to exist on this planet for a certain population size.

Which everyone pretty much agrees will involve a single government, single military/scientific industrial complex and a single, collective population of global citizens. Different cultures and languages will still exist of course, like they do in the UK, and even different parts of England.

It's all inevitable, just a question of when really.

But I do agree, I'd appreciate more 'art and design' injected into these cars. But then you could equally argue that everything, every single part from the glove box handle to the way the indicator stalk clicks has been designed to death and we're just overwhelmed by it all. We end up missing the little details you see, we're all numb to them.

I think we prefer older cars because they're much simpler. They've got a few big differences that we see as blindingly obvious. As a consequence the little things don't matter as much. Who gives a toss about the crap seats, thin steering wheel and barge-like suspension?

As for how a car drives or feels. Blame driving dynamics, aero efficiencies and the like. Blame engineering.

There will be an optimum executive car, an optimum luxury car and an optimum sports car. Hopefully one of them will provide a modicum of fun.

[Ex Boy Racer]

[quote=Beefmeister]I can't wait to see a triple test in Evo between the M6 GC, RS7 and updated CLS63 AMG with the new 577bhp engine from the E63S.

No need for the test as we know what it will say:

Audi lumpy, heavy and unsatisfying to drive, but nice interior and wonderful engine
Mercedes still very classy with a great engine and lovely steering. But not as good as..
BMW which will be the best for an enthusiastic driver but sadly a bit more artificial than it used to be.

With lots of opposite lock photos scattered around the article too

[Fun Bus]

buckline said:

I'm not in a position to even contemplate buying a car like the M6 GC but that seems like an awful lot of money for a BMW. I would be interested to hear if anyone who does have the wherewithal would consider one.

It's a lot of money, yes; but I could see Panamera, Quattroporte or Mercedes S63/65 owners to be target market.

[X5TUU]

Am I the only person that thinks the 4 looks just like the parrot fish 6-er from a couple of years ago??

That's comically expensive for the 6GC as well

[Tomatogti]

I know cars get bigger everytime the latest model arrives but I couldn't believe how big the recent 3 series is - thought it was the 5 at first. If the 4 is longer then the 3 then it must be massive. I'll take the 2 series for UK roads please!

[E38Ross]

X5TUU said:

That's comically expensive for the 6GC as well

really? look at it objectively compared to the price and specs (power etc) of the equivalent Aston Martin or Maserati and it doesn't look over-priced at all.

Cheaper than a CL Merc (though more than CLS), better (MUCH) performance than the equivalent maserati as well as a better interior etc etc and it's really not that bad. it's considerably cheaper than a DB9 also which is also well down on power and doesn't have proper rear seats. etc.

again, people just think it's expensive because the brand isn't as prestige, but from an objective POV, it's really not as bad as you think.

[X5TUU]

E38Ross said:

X5TUU said:

That's comically expensive for the 6GC as well

really? look at it objectively compared to the price and specs (power etc) of the equivalent Aston Martin or Maserati and it doesn't look over-priced at all.

Cheaper than a CL Merc (though more than CLS), better (MUCH) performance than the equivalent maserati as well as a better interior etc etc and it's really not that bad. it's considerably cheaper than a DB9 also which is also well down on power and doesn't have proper rear seats. etc.

again, people just think it's expensive because the brand isn't as prestige, but from an objective POV, it's really not as bad as you think.

This almost proves a point, AM and Maserati, are mid to high end brands, not run of the mill brands ... Power etc... I agree you get more bang for the buck, but it depends if you want to be seen as driving what in fairness will end up with umpteen looky likey copy cats from owners who either can't or won't pay for a full blown version but want to copy the look ... Or if you want to drive what is perceived as a more 'exclusive' hunk of metal/composite

[VinceFox]

that 4 has a touch of the 8s about it. so to speak.

[HustleRussell]

I'm not liking these increasingly blingy spindly wheels BMW are fitting...

[E38Ross]

X5TUU said:

E38Ross said:

X5TUU said:

That's comically expensive for the 6GC as well

really? look at it objectively compared to the price and specs (power etc) of the equivalent Aston Martin or Maserati and it doesn't look over-priced at all.

Cheaper than a CL Merc (though more than CLS), better (MUCH) performance than the equivalent maserati as well as a better interior etc etc and it's really not that bad. it's considerably cheaper than a DB9 also which is also well down on power and doesn't have proper rear seats. etc.

again, people just think it's expensive because the brand isn't as prestige, but from an objective POV, it's really not as bad as you think.

This almost proves a point, AM and Maserati, are mid to high end brands, not run of the mill brands ... Power etc... I agree you get more bang for the buck, but it depends if you want to be seen as driving what in fairness will end up with umpteen looky likey copy cats from owners who either can't or won't pay for a full blown version but want to copy the look ... Or if you want to drive what is perceived as a more 'exclusive' hunk of metal/composite

the 6GC is a businessmans car. turn up in an AM rapide and they think you're charging too much. Turn up in a 6GC and they'll just think you're doing well. that is a key factor for several people i know with half decent cars; and you still get good bang for buck.

[X5TUU]

See I would argue that as a 'businessman' it's all about connoisseur versus common brand, and this is more director or head of service spec price-wise and I would be surprised to see them driving a BMW over something more exotic ... Especially in an environment that's all about the 'show'

[E38Ross]

X5TUU said:

See I would argue that as a 'businessman' it's all about connoisseur versus common brand, and this is more director or head of service spec price-wise and I would be surprised to see them driving a BMW over something more exotic ... Especially in an environment that's all about the 'show'

well it may be different in different aspects of work, but i know someone who is VERY high up (a senior vice president) in a very well known financial services corporation and he never, ever took his Aston to turn up to meetings in, always took the RS4 instead.

it's that same reason my father (the owner of an aerospace engineering firm) didn't get a fancy new 911 (that, and he needed back seats)

[JayEll]

will261058 said:

That M6 GC is the best looking 4 door coupe by a country mile IMO and the 4 series is lovely too! I just hope BMW find a way for the M3 lineage to continue!

Which makes me wonder why they didn't call the new 3 series saloon the 4 series (it is the 4 door after all), and give the new coupe line the 3 series monikor. That way negating the issue of potentially losing the M3 lineage.

[VinceFox]

HustleRussell said:

I'm not liking these increasingly blingy spindly wheels BMW are fitting...

agreed. they'd be straight in the bin.

[RenesisEvo]

BS75 said:

RenesisEvo said:

I've discussed this on here before. Steeply rising waistlines are a horrible styling blight on cars of the last few years, not to mention safety aspects from lack of vision to the sides and rear (but wait! We can offer you technology instead! Which then stops working out of warranty...) The Fiesta, Scirocco, GT86, i30/i40, Evoque, the new Clio, Megane (especially the coupe) - in fact a lot of recent cars from all across the board have gone for a high, rising waistline, leaving very little in the way of glass, especially at the rear of the car.

It's not just a modern or crash-reg thing - Audi had go at making a car that felt like driving a letterbox 15 years ago.

...a nasty, ugly little girl's car they called the 'TT', which at the time got universal acclaim for its groundbreaking design despite having the dashboard and steering wheel arrangement from a Morgan.

The main issue with the Mk1 TT is that all the curves make parking very difficult, as you cannot judge where the car ends, because there are no corners. That and the near-useless interior mirror.

[HighwayStar]

RenesisEvo said:

The main issue with the Mk1 TT is that all the curves make parking very difficult, as you cannot judge where the car ends, because there are no corners. That and the near-useless interior mirror.

Lol... Oh please, what happened to spatial awareness? Yes they are all curvy and the bonnet disappears but I had no problem parking my Mk1 or 2. I've not once touched another car while parking. Yeah the review mirror isn't great, the door mirrors are fine, you just have to work with what you got. If it's what you wanted you put up with it. I know if it was a Gallardo I'd see diddly out the back but I'd still take it.

[ZesPak]

that price for the M6, that's almost Panamera Turbo money!