'You bend it, you mend it' - Piper sues Hales

[Fatrat]

Having read most of this thread and the judgement I am amazed that MH went to trial (advised or not) with that admission he made to Octane's insurers.

I feel extremely sorry for MH but given what he knew he would have been better off settling out of court.

Perhaps in future journalists and car owners will enter into a signed agreement about just what each party expects in the event of an issue like this. Maybe it is sad that is necessary but we are talking big money for some of these cars and whilst it may be pocket money for some of the owners it can be a significant amount for the driver.

As MH has found out "gentlemens agreements" are not necessrily any protection in a court of law

[Clevers]

I would still make a contribution to the MH fund if there is going to be one.

Still think he is a victim of misfortune compounded by errors of judgement after the event.

[Lurking Lawyer]

Tankslider said:

It should not have come to this.

Indeed not.

As I have said, we don't know what MH was advised but it's a reasonable assumption that he would have had various discussions with his legal team about settlement. He chose to press on to trial.

I too feel a considerable degree of sympathy with him but, ultimately, he is the author of his own misfortune - in more than one way.

[longblackcoat]

Stelvio1 said:

btw I don't think there is a good guy or a bad guy in this case - no axe to grind for either party - big shame it came to this - no winners - both losers!

I disagree. Piper's the good guy in this, according to the judge, who heard all the evidence and who therefore is in a position to know. If anyone's the bad guy, it's Hales.

And yet in the court of public opinion, the positions are entirely reversed. A rich man pursuing a poor man for an amount which is trifling for one and devastating for the other is never viewed well; were I to be Piper I'd have fumed inwardly, swallowed the bill, then made sure that everyone who counted got to know that MH should not be trusted either to honour a commitment or to listen to instructions.

[freedman]

Tankslider said:

The gears, as was stated in court. Your assumption is presumably that Mark was complementing on them.

Yup, get it, loyal fans etc. Look, really easy. Very capable bloke with brilliant reputation sets about a 917 / 512S test at Cadwell. How fecking great is that? Said bloke looks likely to lose his house over it. My delicate sense of proportionality has been upset. It should not have come to this.

I dont have any assumption, I'm stating what was reported in the judgement, the fact that Masons mechanic could not hear the discussion becaus of the noise

No problem sticking up for your mates, but we've had page after page of 'statements' based on nothing other than what people have read on here, and now the judgement shows things in a rather differemt light some dont want to hear it

Of course no one wants Mark Hales to lose his house over it, and no it shouldnt have come to it, but that isnt entirely down to David Piper is it

[rhinochopig]

longblackcoat said:

Stelvio1 said:

btw I don't think there is a good guy or a bad guy in this case - no axe to grind for either party - big shame it came to this - no winners - both losers!

I disagree. Piper's the good guy in this, according to the judge, who heard all the evidence and who therefore is in a position to know. If anyone's the bad guy, it's Hales.

And yet in the court of public opinion, the positions are entirely reversed. A rich man pursuing a poor man for an amount which is trifling for one and devastating for the other is never viewed well; were I to be Piper I'd have fumed inwardly, swallowed the bill, then made sure that everyone who counted got to know that MH should not be trusted either to honour a commitment or to listen to instructions.

I hadn't realised that Judges were infallible. That's comforting to know.

[///ajd]

there is still something odd here

he tries to claim it was his 'faulty shifting' to the insurer - who says 'no way, it was mechanical failure'

now he says 'it was mechanical failure' to the judge - who says 'no way, it was faulty shifting'

can MH now sue the insurer, by quoting the judge as determining it was faulty shifting? insurer in theory can't argue with that can they?

it all seems a bit off as it was clear the car had a known vulnerability - and it seems this was admitted by the mechanic who has admitted that he 'should be careful selecting gear''. there clearly is an issue where they are admitting that the car had inherently risks of being difficult to select third. there is surely a case here to say that no matter how careful/skillful you were this could have happened to any driver - and history suggests it happened to the best, possibly with much better maintained factory 917s. this maybe the view the insurer took.

what a mess.

Edited by ///ajd on Monday 21st January 19:30 - not slipping out of 3rd

Edited by ///ajd on Monday 21st January 19:32

Edited by ///ajd on Monday 21st January 19:49

[freedman]

///ajd said:

. there clearly is an issue where they are admitting that the car had inherently risks of slipping out of third.

Where did anyone admit anything of the sort?

[Tankslider]

I've reconsidered completely my intended 917 purchase.

[///ajd]

freedman said:

///ajd said:

. there clearly is an issue where they are admitting that the car had inherently risks of slipping out of third.

Where did anyone admit anything of the sort?

you're right - inherent risks of being difficult to correctly select third. mh claimed it slipped out having not quite engaged it fully, piper's mechanic does seem to have warned him it was tricky.

Edited by ///ajd on Monday 21st January 19:34

[longblackcoat]

rhinochopig said:

longblackcoat said:

Stelvio1 said:

btw I don't think there is a good guy or a bad guy in this case - no axe to grind for either party - big shame it came to this - no winners - both losers!

I disagree. Piper's the good guy in this, according to the judge, who heard all the evidence and who therefore is in a position to know. If anyone's the bad guy, it's Hales.

And yet in the court of public opinion, the positions are entirely reversed. A rich man pursuing a poor man for an amount which is trifling for one and devastating for the other is never viewed well; were I to be Piper I'd have fumed inwardly, swallowed the bill, then made sure that everyone who counted got to know that MH should not be trusted either to honour a commitment or to listen to instructions.

I hadn't realised that Judges were infallible. That's comforting to know.

Where did I say that judge was infallible?

The judge was there to hear all the evidence and neither you nor I were. Given the evidence presented, I can see of no way that any other conclusion could have been reached. MH stated one thing to the insurance company, then tried to claim something else in court; the judge is entitled to state that "Mr Hales was a most unreliable witness whose evidence was creative, inconsistent, self motivated and incredible."

I very much like MH's writing, but based on his performance in this case I'd not lend him anything worth more than a bag of crisps. Still doesn't mean that I support the way Piper's gone about it, but that's an entirely different matter.

Edited by longblackcoat on Monday 21st January 19:52

[freedman]

///ajd said:

you're right - inherent risks of being difficult to correctly select third.

Again, who exactly made that statement?

[Stuart]

Tankslider said:

I've reconsidered completely my intended 917 purchase.

What? But I've washed it and blacked the tyres and everything.

[Fatrat]

Stuart said:

Tankslider said:

I've reconsidered completely my intended 917 purchase.

What? But I've washed it and blacked the tyres and everything.

Fitted a new gearbox?

[Excelsior]

Stuart said:

What? But I've washed it and blacked the tyres and everything.

Are you selling to pay for a new F5 key?

Please keep us posted on the fund - I'm happy to contribute

[skeggysteve]

Tankslider said:

I still don't understand how 8300 rpm blew a 917s engine. They don't make max power until 8400rpm. Max revs 8700-8800 (where the rev limiter, if it had one, would be set)

You make a few very good points in your post but I think the above one is the best.
I know nothing about 917 engines but if what you are saying is correct (and I have no reason to think otherwise) why was this not raised in court?

..................

The following is complete speculation on my part.

The judgement says that DP is paying his mechanic £100 per day for work on the car.
That seems very little money to be paying to someone to look after a car as complex and valuable as a 917.

MH say:
" Hales came straight into the pits to report this to Piper's mechanic. Hales was told that this was a matter of adjustment"

I repeat this is speculation on my part.

So a cheap mechanic hadn't prepared the car properly (or hadn't been paid enough to do the required work?) and to save face tells MH to "be careful".

I base my speculation on my own experience - a couple of years ago I was paid a little less than a £100 a day (well a bit more if you count the food and beer!) to help look after a club race car that was no where near as complex as a 917 and worth a lot, lot less.

[///ajd]

freedman said:

///ajd said:

you're right - inherent risks of being difficult to correctly select third.

Again, who exactly made that statement?

ah, i misread. he was warned about engine damage if gear was not selected correctly - this is slightly different to how i first interpreted it - but does imply it was known that such a gearchange mistake was perhaps understood to be easily done. anecdotal remarks about 917s in general suggest so.

[freedman]

skeggysteve said:

You make a few very good points in your post but I think the above one is the best.
I know nothing about 917 engines but if what you are saying is correct (and I have no reason to think otherwise) why was this not raised in court?

..................

The following is complete speculation on my part.

The judgement says that DP is paying his mechanic £100 per day for work on the car.
That seems very little money to be paying to someone to look after a car as complex and valuable as a 917.

MH say:
" Hales came straight into the pits to report this to Piper's mechanic. Hales was told that this was a matter of adjustment"

.

MH also said this, in writing

"There was no fault apparent with the car before this incident, and I admit the damage to the engine was caused by my failure to select the gear correctly”.

[groomi]

Tankslider said:

I've reconsidered completely my intended 917 purchase.

Me too...



...unfortunately I've just shelled out £1.3m on a dodgy one.

[anonymous-user]

Blackpuddin said:

La Liga said:

Seriously, although it's not as much fun, it does help to wait for the 'full facts' (SPL style) to emerge in which to form a conclusion.

Yes, and for that kudos is due to the lawyers on here who have been saying as much throughout (I'm not one btw).

Because they see it time and time again. They know it's a much more likely a sound decision was reached by the courts than there being some grave injustice.