RE: PH Blog: manual labour
Discussion
The manual will be kept alive by enthusiasts...like vinyl..like horses...like sailing...all these have been superseded by "better" technology but all are still very much alive.
The complexity of DCT's and super shift autos and the processing power behind them takes them out of the scope of home repair therefore they will become disposal.
The complexity of DCT's and super shift autos and the processing power behind them takes them out of the scope of home repair therefore they will become disposal.
xRIEx said:
Bear Phils said:
MyCC said:
Interesting that the Americans still demand them in performance cars, look no further than them being offered a manual version of the new M5.
New automated boxes are fantastic and fun but it dulls the experience a little, making it 'too easy' to drive fast and feel a little remote.
Regards,
My CC.
America isn't hounded by emissions laws, that's why they still offer a manual there.New automated boxes are fantastic and fun but it dulls the experience a little, making it 'too easy' to drive fast and feel a little remote.
Regards,
My CC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_emissio...
Froomee said:
A manual gearbox in any sports car is a must in my view and was one of the major reason i ruled out an SLK55AMG when purchasing my Z4M.
Automatics are fine for Range Rovers, Barges and the like but for driver focused cars the involvement is more important than 0.1 secs here and 0.005 secs there and as people have stated it is more to go wrong in the long term (although no doubt people will find cheaper ways to repair these things as time goes on).
Unfortunately due to legislation the focus has shifted towards efficiency and safety although i think the law of diminishing returns will be reached soon where the amount of safety devices is beyond what is realistically needed and the option to have a lots of power or high power to weight ratio is limted due to restrictions placed on manufacturers.
with a gearbox/clutch/brakes like the one in the z4m, i'd actually go for the auto really.Automatics are fine for Range Rovers, Barges and the like but for driver focused cars the involvement is more important than 0.1 secs here and 0.005 secs there and as people have stated it is more to go wrong in the long term (although no doubt people will find cheaper ways to repair these things as time goes on).
Unfortunately due to legislation the focus has shifted towards efficiency and safety although i think the law of diminishing returns will be reached soon where the amount of safety devices is beyond what is realistically needed and the option to have a lots of power or high power to weight ratio is limted due to restrictions placed on manufacturers.
No matter how brilliant the car, there is something to be said of that synergy between man and machine when hooning with a manual gearbox.
Kids will laugh in 20 years time when we tell them some cars only had 5 forward gears, and they were operated manually by gear and clutch. I think the film WALL-E is prophetic; lifting a finger in the near future will probably be considered a chore.
Kids will laugh in 20 years time when we tell them some cars only had 5 forward gears, and they were operated manually by gear and clutch. I think the film WALL-E is prophetic; lifting a finger in the near future will probably be considered a chore.
I used to be firmly in the manual camp, until the wife got an Audi with a DSG box. I was determined to hate it but it was simply amazing, so relaxing around town and a real giggle on a blast. I've never looked back. The (small) fuel and emmission savings are a side-show. A well sorted modern auto box adds rather subtracts from the enjoyment a car can bring IMO.
I love a good manual, and I'm looking forward to getting my Excel on the road soon. But as a daily, I'm thinking I may well consider my next car to be automatic. I spend 20+ mins a day in nose to tail traffic getting to work. and all my other driving is fairly prosaic, off to see family, etc. In fact I'm thinking of starting to commute by train!
I think the only option is to supercharge the Lotus and cycle to work.
I think the only option is to supercharge the Lotus and cycle to work.
Only we "the people" (Customers) can put that idiocy to an end.
I did my bit when I ordered one of the last manual A6 Quattros of the line:
Now YOU do YOURS !
They are phasing out the manual boxes because it is beneficial to their business
model: Less cost within the first 3 years of (covered) ownership, but higher maintanance
further down the road, coupled with the EU cycle benefits and the benefit of sleaker
production.
I did my bit when I ordered one of the last manual A6 Quattros of the line:
Now YOU do YOURS !
They are phasing out the manual boxes because it is beneficial to their business
model: Less cost within the first 3 years of (covered) ownership, but higher maintanance
further down the road, coupled with the EU cycle benefits and the benefit of sleaker
production.
Andy20vt said:
Flappy paddle auto gearboxes I can understand and live with, but it's electric button handbrakes that I really hate. Technology for technology's sake, and horrible to live with. Either on or off with no chance of using the handbrake to slide round an icy car park.
Indeed. How come this is mentioned so little? Having been stuck with an electronic handbrake for the past year, it's such a shame to drive past empty frozen car parks reminiscing wistfully about the 'good old days'...
I'm afraid the reason manuals are on a downward spirals is due to us - or at least 95% of the car buying population - and it is simply to do with cost. No-one wants to pay more than they have to for driving, and because DCTs can be configured to get through the emission tests more efficiently compared to a MT and therefore qualify for lower CO2 based tax bands, 95% of the driving population that only care about getting from A to B instead of how you get from A to B, choose this option.
If manuals occupied a lower tax band vs. DCTs, then I would bet my last dollar we wouldn't be having this discussion about the death of manual transmissions.
If manuals occupied a lower tax band vs. DCTs, then I would bet my last dollar we wouldn't be having this discussion about the death of manual transmissions.
For 'drivers cars', on the road and used as intended, 100% manual gearbox. Why would you want to give up one of the core components what makes driving a car pleasurable? I for one love it, far more engaging and gives you an element of connectivity and control no flappy paddle box can give. Posted before, but it allows me to do this....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_18MA8-pzM
Soundtrack just wouldn't be the same ..or as good IMO cracking through a paddle box.
On a circuit, where fractions of second count, of course, or for a daily hack maybe ....but not for a driving car whose primary intended purpose is for the road. Surprised, but delighted to see the American market leading the fight back on this. Manual M5, new Vette....
There will always be a market and a demand for manual gearboxes IMO. Long live it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_18MA8-pzM
Soundtrack just wouldn't be the same ..or as good IMO cracking through a paddle box.
On a circuit, where fractions of second count, of course, or for a daily hack maybe ....but not for a driving car whose primary intended purpose is for the road. Surprised, but delighted to see the American market leading the fight back on this. Manual M5, new Vette....
There will always be a market and a demand for manual gearboxes IMO. Long live it!
There's no question that if you're driving a car purely for pleasure rather than to actually get somewhere or for the best laptime, any true enthusiast would chose a manual.
I suspect there'll be a small but healthy aftermarket business for converting auto only equipped sports cars (anything without a clutch pedal) to manual ones. Aston Martin (Works) even do it themselves.
There's no question the M3 CSL would be more desirable, to the true enthusiast, so equipped, as would the E60 M5. Even things like the 458 Italia and MP4-12C would be better suited to the enthusiast if fitted with a clutch pedal BUT they're mostly bought new by wealthy poseurs who probably couldn't drive them thus configured so the market is almost non existent as far as those manufacturers, or at least their marketing departments, are concerned.
Shame that the bespoke departments at Ferrari/Porsche/McLaren etc) will allow you virtually unlimited reign to spec/ruin your vehicle with daft trim, wheels and paint options but not allow a manual g'box
I suspect there'll be a small but healthy aftermarket business for converting auto only equipped sports cars (anything without a clutch pedal) to manual ones. Aston Martin (Works) even do it themselves.
There's no question the M3 CSL would be more desirable, to the true enthusiast, so equipped, as would the E60 M5. Even things like the 458 Italia and MP4-12C would be better suited to the enthusiast if fitted with a clutch pedal BUT they're mostly bought new by wealthy poseurs who probably couldn't drive them thus configured so the market is almost non existent as far as those manufacturers, or at least their marketing departments, are concerned.
Shame that the bespoke departments at Ferrari/Porsche/McLaren etc) will allow you virtually unlimited reign to spec/ruin your vehicle with daft trim, wheels and paint options but not allow a manual g'box
HokumPokum said:
Froomee said:
A manual gearbox in any sports car is a must in my view and was one of the major reason i ruled out an SLK55AMG when purchasing my Z4M.
Automatics are fine for Range Rovers, Barges and the like but for driver focused cars the involvement is more important than 0.1 secs here and 0.005 secs there and as people have stated it is more to go wrong in the long term (although no doubt people will find cheaper ways to repair these things as time goes on).
Unfortunately due to legislation the focus has shifted towards efficiency and safety although i think the law of diminishing returns will be reached soon where the amount of safety devices is beyond what is realistically needed and the option to have a lots of power or high power to weight ratio is limted due to restrictions placed on manufacturers.
with a gearbox/clutch/brakes like the one in the z4m, i'd actually go for the auto really.Automatics are fine for Range Rovers, Barges and the like but for driver focused cars the involvement is more important than 0.1 secs here and 0.005 secs there and as people have stated it is more to go wrong in the long term (although no doubt people will find cheaper ways to repair these things as time goes on).
Unfortunately due to legislation the focus has shifted towards efficiency and safety although i think the law of diminishing returns will be reached soon where the amount of safety devices is beyond what is realistically needed and the option to have a lots of power or high power to weight ratio is limted due to restrictions placed on manufacturers.
Regarding the Z4M gearbox 1st to 2nd is a bit "notchy" which is easy to get used to (or modify if required remove CDV) and the clutch a bit heavy in traffic but no different to any other car with similar power.
Either way DSC off, Sport button on (although it only makes the throttle open quicker) and a manual box is epic fun if not the last thing in finesse. I don't take my car round a track and i don't go chasing 1/10th of a second but i do enjoy a bit of tail action and the feeling of getting it "right" when situations permit.
If a car is too easy to drive or refined it takes away the enjoyment and then i need to buy a new car
Martin 480 Turbo said:
I did my bit when I ordered one of the last manual A6 Quattros of the line:
Now YOU do YOURS !
They are phasing out the manual boxes because it is beneficial to their business
model: Less cost within the first 3 years of (covered) ownership, but higher maintanance
further down the road, coupled with the EU cycle benefits and the benefit of sleaker
production.
and as shown in your picture, most manufactures are shifting to electric hand brakes which don't work well in combination with a MT.Now YOU do YOURS !
They are phasing out the manual boxes because it is beneficial to their business
model: Less cost within the first 3 years of (covered) ownership, but higher maintanance
further down the road, coupled with the EU cycle benefits and the benefit of sleaker
production.
BTW, are those driving gloves on the passenager seat?
Itsallicanafford said:
IMO...on the subject of the M3 CSL, i would argue that it has harmed it's reputation. The SMG box is Ok, but it does show its age now and date the whole car. If the the M3 CSL was designed as a manual, i think prices would be Circa £50K+ (or higher, it is a very special car indeed), not £30K that they are now, and what is one of the best would be one of the very, very best...IMO of course, the SMG debate rages long and hard on the specialist forums.
Well said. The exact reason I bought a CS instead of a CSL.brayash said:
Indeed. How come this is mentioned so little?
Having been stuck with an electronic handbrake for the past year, it's such a shame to drive past empty frozen car parks reminiscing wistfully about the 'good old days'...
Electronic brakes. Now there is something that isn't divisive. Hateful hateful things.Having been stuck with an electronic handbrake for the past year, it's such a shame to drive past empty frozen car parks reminiscing wistfully about the 'good old days'...
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