RE: PH Blog: manual labour

[kambites]

Leins said:

An awful lot of negative press in this thread about the CSL and SMG, but it's the old adage again of how many people here that are slating its gearbox have actually driven one?

I've driven both of BMW's automated boxes (albeit not in the CSL), and hated both.

I respect the engineering behind the better automated boxes; I just don't like driving with them.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 24th January 11:23

[Hasbeen]

For years I drove large automatic company cars, & a couple of Hilux crew cab utes. With their tough boxes, with excellent synchromesh, I just jammed the the Hilux into what ever gear I wanted.

Driving was a boor, & a chore. Then we got an 80s Toyota Celica for my daughter. Second & fourth gear synchros were totally shot. The daughter would pinch my Hilux, & I found myself driving the Celica a bit.

I suddenly realised I was actually enjoying driving the thing, having to match revs to get second or 4Th, & push it along a bit to get anywhere. I now have a TR7, a TR8, a Capri, & an S2000, & love driving again, unless it is into the deep city.

I feel sorry for those who have lost that joy of driving, often caused by slush box driving.

[alfaandomega]

Munich said:

Martin 480 Turbo said:

I did my bit when I ordered one of the last manual A6 Quattros of the line:


Now YOU do YOURS !

They are phasing out the manual boxes because it is beneficial to their business
model: Less cost within the first 3 years of (covered) ownership, but higher maintanance
further down the road, coupled with the EU cycle benefits and the benefit of sleaker
production.

and as shown in your picture, most manufactures are shifting to electric hand brakes which don't work well in combination with a MT.

BTW, are those driving gloves on the passenager seat?

Glad someone brought up the subject of driving gloves..... driving in gloves has been one of my greatest motoring discoveries of the last 5 years - I have a pair of ordinary leather gloves in my car which are exclusively for driving, note that they are not 'driving' gloves, which I would consider a bit naff for everyday use...... the benefits:-

Lighter grip on steering wheel
Less vibration through steering wheel but no loss of 'feel'
Gloves help to retain moisturisation of skin which is otherwise lost through constant handling of the wheel
Used year-round winter or summer
A greater feeling of confidence and control

So there! Try it, you might like it !

[Leins]

kambites said:

I've driven both of BMW's automated boxes (albeit not in the CSL), and hated both.

I respect the engineering behind the better automated boxes; I just don't like driving with them.

Edited by kambites on Thursday 24th January 11:23

And that's sort of my point. If I was talking about an E36 or standard E46 M3 then I would be very much on the fence. In the CSL the whole package makes much more sense together IMO, and I wouldn't want to swap it for a manual box

[havoc]

AdeV said:

havoc said:

I'm confused - surely the objective of any enthusiastic driver is to improve all of their inputs? You'd happily give one away?!?

Isn't that a non-argument?

e.g. you don't have to adjust the ignition timing via a lever any more - that input was happily given away?
e.g. Most manual gearboxes have synchros on all gears - the crash box was happily abandoned (by most, some motor racing & masochists excepted)

I am sure there are other "driver inputs" which have been automated...


FWIW, this is NOT an argument for (or against) manual gearboxes per se - just suggesting that we've already given so many inputs away...

Possibly.

But did losing ignition timing, manual choke or double-declutching rob the driver of any control over the car?

Even an automated manual will decide it knows best on occasion, and you can't slip the clutch on one should you so need...such as in snowy conditions!

[Twincam16]

havoc said:

Possibly.

But did losing ignition timing, manual choke or double-declutching rob the driver of any control over the car?

Even an automated manual will decide it knows best on occasion, and you can't slip the clutch on one should you so need...such as in snowy conditions!

I agree - most cars I've seen in ditches recently have been the kind of big barge that usually comes with a slushbox.

I've only had one - a Mercedes, supposedly one of the best in the business - and even though I've driven plenty of cars with good autoboxes since, I'll never have another. It was horrid, and on slippery roads where you had to accelerate all the way through each ratio to get it to change up for better torque and traction, it was positively lethal. I've owned a number of RWD sports cars, and yet that Merc was the one that went sideways, when I didn't want it to, most often.

[Ian974]

havoc said:

Re: reliability - quite the opposite. How often have you over-revved an engine through a mis-change?

you must be epically ham fisted if the daily likelyhood of buzzing your engine with a manual is enough to make an auto a nessessity. Never done it in my life.

[andybu]

I'm not arguing that any enthusiast driver would pick an autobox over a manual just to save the risk of buzzing the engine - as you say, any enthusiast worth their salt isn't doing that. But, the mass of lumpen car customers would regard having that risk removed as a benefit.

I'm saying "we may have to go with the flow" as far as future gearbox choice goes. I'll happily agree with everyone here who has said " I drove an earlier-generation autobox and didn't like it". True enough - I didn't like them either. But, since then I've driven DSG, XF 6-speed auto, now recently the new XF 8-speed auto on which Monkey has poured such praise and they've all dramatically moved the game on. The new XF-8 speeder I couldn't really fault. I could drive it manually just as I wanted to when I wanted to & then let it run in auto for town work. Ideal if one car has to cover all your personal transport needs...

Meantime the current copy of Autocar is reporting that_

1) XF is now finishing off R&D work on a 9-speed transmission & it'll be commercially available later this year.

2) Honda & GM are preparing their own 9-speed gearbox units.

3) Ford is reportedly doing R&D on a 10-speed transmission.

I don't read of anyone putting the equivalent R&D into better manual transmissions. Ergo, sooner or later the auto will be the majority choice. That does not remove your right to hang on to & enjoy a manual-box car, but, would you hang on regardless if the other option is demonstrably better?

And just to throw a different grenade in to the discussion, there's also a report this week that prototype production will start shortly on an in-wheel electric drive system for hybrids and EVs. Basically, it is an electric motor mounted inside each wheel. Proving also that there is really nothing new under the sun, this same solution was built and used by an early vehicle designed by a certain Dr Porsche, back in the 1930's..

The new version of Dr P's original idea presumably also won't have a gearbox as we currently understand it at all. But, as an electric motor can give 100% power from a zero start I'll happily give up any form of gearbox at this point if the 0-60 times to be got from 4 electric motors are what I think they can be.

We do live in interesting times at the moment in terms of technology development for cars. Can't see any new manual gearboxes getting the same R&D attention, though. The original vehicle engineers at one of the pioneers, Renault, circa 1895 or so, described the mechanical gearbox, change lever and clutch as a "crude interim solution - but it will have to do for now". 100 years on and the industry is headed towards some form of replacement, or, making the gearbox completely redundant.

[havoc]

Andy, I think we're approaching it from different perspectives.

You seem to be looking at the improved efficiency/effectiveness of a good auto/DSG - the reduction in effort, the increase in pace possible and the ability to focus on other parts of driving. Very much the same 'sort' of logic that says a modern turbo-petrol is better than an old screaming n/asp engine.

Which in all quantitative ways it is. But I'll take a Type-R engine or an E46 M3 lump or an old Mezger flat-6 over the newer stuff any day of the week...


I'm (surprisingly for an accountant) coming at it from the emotive side. Not the "I've got a TVR because I'm a hairy-chested man who can maintain a car and my car has to have 'character'". But the whole becoming emotionally-invested in the experience of driving - immersing yourself in the act, treating it as something to perfect, something to enjoy in-and-of-itself, whether doing 30mph or 130mph.

In that regard, efficiency is irrelevant (except maybe where you improve* the driver/car interface such as better linkage). DBW is worse than a throttle cable. Servo brakes are worse than unassisted, but necessary for most modern cars and a safety improvement, so I'll let them go. PAS ditto.

I genuinely think I'd have more fun in a 1960s roadster (esp. if an Elan) than in a current-generation "sports coupe" or convertible. Because of the interface, the feedback, the feeling that you the driver are making a difference, not just controlling a box of circuit boards...





* Not REMOVE!

[Fantuzzi]

Leins said:

Fantuzzi said:

Leins said:

As for it stopping values hitting £50k+, the only thing that ever did that was the 996 GT3. And not because they're a manual, but because it's always been looked upon as the next step up from the CSL as a fast-road/trackday car. Go further up that line and you're probably into a 360CS and back with an automated-manual again. Never seemed to affect its desirability

Surely in this forum, its less about what the masses of car buyers think, but rather what real enthusiasts think about them in terms of their purity and the level of enjoyment

Sorry, not sure I quite follow...???

Sorry that wasnt very well written.

'Just because people like paddles, it dosnt mean they're better.'

While the masses may not mind the auto boxes,(most) keen drivers still mourn the lack of a gear stick in high performance cars.

[kambites]

Fantuzzi said:

'Just because people like paddles, it dosnt mean they're better.'

Unfortunately when it comes to building (or more precisely selling) cars, the fact that people like paddles does mean they're better.

[AdeV]

havoc said:

I genuinely think I'd have more fun in a 1960s roadster (esp. if an Elan)

Hm, I guess if repeatedly turning the ignition key to little effect is your thing....

[paranoid airbag]

That most people prefer them means they're better for most people from the manufacturer's point of view.

A laser gun might well be a far more efficient tool for mock-shooting people than a paintball gun - lower maintenance, more reliable, and fires in a perfectly straight line at sufficient speed to render leading the target unncessary. This allows the shooter to concentrate on other parts of mock warfare, like finding cover etc.

Which is more fun? There's no right answer.

[havoc]

AdeV said:

havoc said:

I genuinely think I'd have more fun in a 1960s roadster (esp. if an Elan)

Hm, I guess if repeatedly turning the ignition key to little effect is your thing....

OK, OK - the whole maintenance thing may get tiring (I'm not cut out for TVR/Lotus ownership, let's put it that way! ). But from a driving perspective, you know I'm right.

...so maybe late-80s to late-90s is the sweet-spot - electronic fuel injection, galvanised bodies, hydraulic PAS but still with throttle cables and no traction control systems. Sensible-sized alloys and comparatively-narrow tyres too...

[Patrick Bateman]

paranoid airbag said:

That most people prefer them means they're better for most people from the manufacturer's point of view.

A laser gun might well be a far more efficient tool for mock-shooting people than a paintball gun - lower maintenance, more reliable, and fires in a perfectly straight line at sufficient speed to render leading the target unncessary. This allows the shooter to concentrate on other parts of mock warfare, like finding cover etc.

Which is more fun? There's no right answer.

There is in that example to be fair.

[AdeV]

havoc said:

AdeV said:

havoc said:

I genuinely think I'd have more fun in a 1960s roadster (esp. if an Elan)

Hm, I guess if repeatedly turning the ignition key to little effect is your thing....

OK, OK - the whole maintenance thing may get tiring (I'm not cut out for TVR/Lotus ownership, let's put it that way! ). But from a driving perspective, you know I'm right.

Indeed I do... some of the most fun I've had driving was in a 6-speed V8-powered Capri, with no PAS and unassisted brakes. Well, until I got pit-manoevered into, ironically, the pit wall.

[Leins]

Fantuzzi said:

Sorry that wasnt very well written.

'Just because people like paddles, it dosnt mean they're better.'

While the masses may not mind the auto boxes,(most) keen drivers still mourn the lack of a gear stick in high performance cars.

Ah OK, I see. However, I would class myself as a keen driver and a real enthusiast, yet I prefer to have SMG in a CSL. I wouldn't want it in an E30, but it adds, not detracts, to the appeal of the CSL for me

[Fantuzzi]

Leins said:

Fantuzzi said:

Sorry that wasnt very well written.

'Just because people like paddles, it dosnt mean they're better.'

While the masses may not mind the auto boxes,(most) keen drivers still mourn the lack of a gear stick in high performance cars.

Ah OK, I see. However, I would class myself as a keen driver and a real enthusiast, yet I prefer to have SMG in a CSL. I wouldn't want it in an E30, but it adds, not detracts, to the appeal of the CSL for me

To a certain extent its about what you savour from driving and your personal tastes, Ive heard many people (CS drivers mainly) say how the paddle shift means they concentrate on the road/steering and that means a more exciting experience.

I would like to see more cars of high performance done as Lambo do it, with the gallardo have a manual as a non cost option. Or given that the base berlinetta 458 is almost 200k paying extra for a manual dosnt seem to extreme, a 5-15k manual option would seem fair to me.

Of course, as time goes by, the idea of a manual option will be a pain given most supercars will have been designed with a paddle shift GB in mind. So just like the 458, no option.

[Leins]

Fantuzzi said:

To a certain extent its about what you savour from driving and your personal tastes, Ive heard many people (CS drivers mainly) say how the paddle shift means they concentrate on the road/steering and that means a more exciting experience.

I would like to see more cars of high performance done as Lambo do it, with the gallardo have a manual as a non cost option. Or given that the base berlinetta 458 is almost 200k paying extra for a manual dosnt seem to extreme, a 5-15k manual option would seem fair to me.

Of course, as time goes by, the idea of a manual option will be a pain given most supercars will have been designed with a paddle shift GB in mind. So just like the 458, no option

The ability to keep your hands on the wheel is certainly part of it, but it's mainly the aggressiveness of the box in S6, in conjunction with the noise coming out of the airbox and the speed of the steering, that does it for me. It's exciting more than anything else I suppose, but only in that car

As I previously mentioned, I'd absolutely hate to have an auto or semi-auto in something like my E30, as for me in that car it's all about feeling like your making little gains to keep the performance up when travelling cross-country

Hmmm, actually those two statements possibly sound a bit contradictory. Is it something to do with the relative ages of the cars, how "mechanical" they are, or maybe just what I expect out of each of them? Not sure TBH, but I wouldn't want to change the gearbox in either

Although I do agree that manufacturers should keep the option open to consumers, as tastes will always vary. Won't happen though

[Mermaid]

Leins said:

As I previously mentioned, I'd absolutely hate to have an auto or semi-auto in something like my E30, as for me in that car it's all about feeling like your making little gains to keep the performance up when travelling cross-country
h

But if you had 400ps that little 1200kg car?