RE: PH Blog: manual labour
Discussion
Froomee said:
HokumPokum said:
Froomee said:
A manual gearbox in any sports car is a must in my view and was one of the major reason i ruled out an SLK55AMG when purchasing my Z4M.
Automatics are fine for Range Rovers, Barges and the like but for driver focused cars the involvement is more important than 0.1 secs here and 0.005 secs there and as people have stated it is more to go wrong in the long term (although no doubt people will find cheaper ways to repair these things as time goes on).
Unfortunately due to legislation the focus has shifted towards efficiency and safety although i think the law of diminishing returns will be reached soon where the amount of safety devices is beyond what is realistically needed and the option to have a lots of power or high power to weight ratio is limted due to restrictions placed on manufacturers.
with a gearbox/clutch/brakes like the one in the z4m, i'd actually go for the auto really.Automatics are fine for Range Rovers, Barges and the like but for driver focused cars the involvement is more important than 0.1 secs here and 0.005 secs there and as people have stated it is more to go wrong in the long term (although no doubt people will find cheaper ways to repair these things as time goes on).
Unfortunately due to legislation the focus has shifted towards efficiency and safety although i think the law of diminishing returns will be reached soon where the amount of safety devices is beyond what is realistically needed and the option to have a lots of power or high power to weight ratio is limted due to restrictions placed on manufacturers.
Regarding the Z4M gearbox 1st to 2nd is a bit "notchy" which is easy to get used to (or modify if required remove CDV) and the clutch a bit heavy in traffic but no different to any other car with similar power.
Either way DSC off, Sport button on (although it only makes the throttle open quicker) and a manual box is epic fun if not the last thing in finesse. I don't take my car round a track and i don't go chasing 1/10th of a second but i do enjoy a bit of tail action and the feeling of getting it "right" when situations permit.
If a car is too easy to drive or refined it takes away the enjoyment and then i need to buy a new car
The joys of a manual gearbox, you either get it or you don't.
My AMV8 had crappy paddles, even though it was breathed on by prodrive it was still awful.
However i wasn't put off them forever when i bought my 360, the shift on that was just beautiful.
Currently i have 2 manuals, an auto and an auto Mercedes with flappy paddles. The Merc does this very well, but then again i mainly use it as an auto.
Of course i'd be sad to see the demise of the manual, however, i think we've had some of the best (low tech) manual cars that we'll ever see.
Who'd want a modern Ferrari, say a 458 in a manual? It's a special car because of all the technology it's rammed with, i just don't see how you'd get that space age feel with a manual box?
Now give me an MX 5 or Exige with a manual box and no fussy technology and then i'd be happy.
Horses for courses i suppose, oh and Tesco
However i wasn't put off them forever when i bought my 360, the shift on that was just beautiful.
Currently i have 2 manuals, an auto and an auto Mercedes with flappy paddles. The Merc does this very well, but then again i mainly use it as an auto.
Of course i'd be sad to see the demise of the manual, however, i think we've had some of the best (low tech) manual cars that we'll ever see.
Who'd want a modern Ferrari, say a 458 in a manual? It's a special car because of all the technology it's rammed with, i just don't see how you'd get that space age feel with a manual box?
Now give me an MX 5 or Exige with a manual box and no fussy technology and then i'd be happy.
Horses for courses i suppose, oh and Tesco
to "Munich":
Yes, the electronic handbrake is a bad joke. We live on a steep hill. More than
once I nearly hit a neighbours car when it didn't release smoothly enough. CRAP, but in this
category of car unavoidable...
And No, these are not driving gloves, they are just gloves, like in "freezing winter". The
driving gloves are reserved for duty on wooden steering rims, but my last Alfa is long gone...
P.S.: Nice wild mix that bunch of cars in your "history".
Yes, the electronic handbrake is a bad joke. We live on a steep hill. More than
once I nearly hit a neighbours car when it didn't release smoothly enough. CRAP, but in this
category of car unavoidable...
And No, these are not driving gloves, they are just gloves, like in "freezing winter". The
driving gloves are reserved for duty on wooden steering rims, but my last Alfa is long gone...
P.S.: Nice wild mix that bunch of cars in your "history".
Sutcliffe completely misses the point again. He's probably had his pockets lined by manufacturers to come out with gibberish like that.
We WANT to be twinkle toes with the pedals. It's fun and rewarding when you get it right. Removing that necessary skill is one step closer to 'auto-drive' cars. A computer will no doubt be better at steering and throttle / brake control too, so why not automate those aspects too? Thow in some telematics black box and have it all linked to a central computer whilst you're at it and remove all control for the driver.
That unfortunately is the future. One look at casualty and death rates due to cars is all it will take for the rule-makers to justify it when the technology becomes widespread.
We WANT to be twinkle toes with the pedals. It's fun and rewarding when you get it right. Removing that necessary skill is one step closer to 'auto-drive' cars. A computer will no doubt be better at steering and throttle / brake control too, so why not automate those aspects too? Thow in some telematics black box and have it all linked to a central computer whilst you're at it and remove all control for the driver.
That unfortunately is the future. One look at casualty and death rates due to cars is all it will take for the rule-makers to justify it when the technology becomes widespread.
mrclav said:
My niece and nephew find it hard to believe there was a time that people lived without the internet and mobile phones even though pretty all of us on here remember that time well.
That's pretty much how the manual gearbox is going to go unfortunately.
I remember my grandfather getting his first auto in about 1965 (Hillman Minx, black, ANM 65A I think!) and letting my Dad try it! We tried to set off and my father almost wet himself laughing at the time it took to get itself going! That's pretty much how the manual gearbox is going to go unfortunately.
Since then I've found the best autos work with torquey engines like BMW and Audi V8s. Not tried a car with electric handbrake yet but am sure I'll hate it almost as much as push-in-the-dash "keys" with a separate start button.
What some "car enthusiasts" don't seem to understand is that its not about what is faster, has better grip, etc etc. Its about driver enjoyment, and for me there is nothing more enjoyable than blipping the throttle to rev match as you drop a cog before a corner. Something that cannot be achieved in their modern counterparts.
Froomee said:
If a car is too easy to drive or refined it takes away the enjoyment and then i need to buy a new car
Hit the nail on the head. I previously mentioned can understand the case for flappy paddle auto's but it's always nice to have a manual option.Cars are becoming ruined by too much complexity and un-necessary driver aids. Auto braking, double glazing, electric handbrakes, numb electric steering, parking sensors, auto wipers, lane assist, bulk and weight, etc, etc. With so much potential to go wrong, it will be a very brave person who buys a second hand car without warranty in a few years time.
Maybe the masses want to drive around in a mobile Wifi enabled 'business class lounge' that does all the work for them, glued to Facebook rather than the road ahead?
I'd rather do the driving though and for me, a weekend away is as much about the drive to get there as the actual destination. All technology is doing is to make the driver more and more redundant, less connected to the experience, gaining less driver skills, and less aware of the environment and other road users around them. There's no enjoyment in that so far as I'm concerned.
FlossyThePig said:
If you want a real manual gearbox get rid of the syncromesh, it makes gearchanging too easy.
That reminds me of the days I had a Quaife dog gearbox in my Elise... That's the one thing about the manual gearbox I don't like in the Camaro, the syncromesh seems to struggle with really quick shifting, especially from 1st to 2nd... Other than that, manual gearbox ANY time
Sorry, semi autos and DSG boxes are lovelya nd all that.
The harsh thing is that the majrity of mainstream manual boxes are rubbish, look at the crap Vauxhall have been giving us for the last 10 years so this is what people think of.
However try a proper manual box such as that in the Ep3 civic Type R and youw ill reaslise that proper manual boxes are what driving is all about.
Cars like the Civic Type R will be a distant memory in 10 years time, amanual gearbox on a Normaly aspirated 4 pot.
The harsh thing is that the majrity of mainstream manual boxes are rubbish, look at the crap Vauxhall have been giving us for the last 10 years so this is what people think of.
However try a proper manual box such as that in the Ep3 civic Type R and youw ill reaslise that proper manual boxes are what driving is all about.
Cars like the Civic Type R will be a distant memory in 10 years time, amanual gearbox on a Normaly aspirated 4 pot.
Cotty said:
I have an auto and a manual. Both are perfect in the right situation. But the perfect situation varies imensly with each car.
Same here, daily is DCT and perfect for commuting - the toys are 6 speed manual and on the right day that adds hugely to the pleasure of just driving.Wind this conversation back 30 years and people would be complaining about these new fangled synchro gears, and power assisted brakes and windows you move with buttons and illuminated turn signals and engines that start in the cold.
It's progress.
Yea, I love the open gate R8 manual gear selector in the pic - it does put a smile on my face to see it - but I also quite like other aspects of driving fast. Many complainers here seem to suggest that the only skill in sports driving is changing gear. Perhaps they've never tried it.
It's progress.
Yea, I love the open gate R8 manual gear selector in the pic - it does put a smile on my face to see it - but I also quite like other aspects of driving fast. Many complainers here seem to suggest that the only skill in sports driving is changing gear. Perhaps they've never tried it.
AutocarBORED. If Señor Sutcliffe is that way minded then he can respectfully keep his opinions to himself. I can't believe an editor of a high-profile car magazine like that could stand on his soapbox and champion a method of changing gears that is soulless, detached and ultimately boring in most cars. The only exceptions are massively powerful cars where it's probably best to keep both hands on the wheel as often as physically possible.
Time for Mr S to give in to the call of a Volvo 840 and a Labrador, I think. In my humble opinion: BERK.
Time for Mr S to give in to the call of a Volvo 840 and a Labrador, I think. In my humble opinion: BERK.
Edited by Crunchy Nutter on Friday 18th January 13:56
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff