RE: PH Blog: you bend you mend
Discussion
In my (possibly idealistic) eyes there is no way of proving anything here.
i worked in historic motorsport for a number of years and its pretty rare that I ever saw a 917 run, twice i have watched a skilled German fella who presumably has worked on them for years coax one into life and while warming it up had the kill the engine and go home - they are that highly strung!
How you can place the blame on the person driving it at the time with no evidence is beyond me, particularly when its such a highly regarded driver. If he had made a schoolboy error and stuffed it would be a different matter.
At the end of the day if you are willing to let someone drive your car in that situation you should be aware that something might go wrong.....
i worked in historic motorsport for a number of years and its pretty rare that I ever saw a 917 run, twice i have watched a skilled German fella who presumably has worked on them for years coax one into life and while warming it up had the kill the engine and go home - they are that highly strung!
How you can place the blame on the person driving it at the time with no evidence is beyond me, particularly when its such a highly regarded driver. If he had made a schoolboy error and stuffed it would be a different matter.
At the end of the day if you are willing to let someone drive your car in that situation you should be aware that something might go wrong.....
gowmonster said:
nickz32 said:
I had no idea that this had happened, and it appears to be a bit of a travesty to say the least.
If your going to pay for a magazine to do a feature on something that is as rare and fickle as a 917, then surely as the owner, you have brought this on yourself. Surely its down to you as the owner to swallow the costs of a mechanical failure. How could you reasonably expect the journo or driver of the car to know the a component is going to fail on a car youve never driven before??? Last time is checked, people dont come with crystal balls!
Ok, so if he crashed the car, then thats a very different situation and something that im sure he would accept the consequences of.
But again, it just shows how the world is nowadays, litigation galore...... such a shame
i dont think he paid for the mag to do a feature, it was the other way roundIf your going to pay for a magazine to do a feature on something that is as rare and fickle as a 917, then surely as the owner, you have brought this on yourself. Surely its down to you as the owner to swallow the costs of a mechanical failure. How could you reasonably expect the journo or driver of the car to know the a component is going to fail on a car youve never driven before??? Last time is checked, people dont come with crystal balls!
Ok, so if he crashed the car, then thats a very different situation and something that im sure he would accept the consequences of.
But again, it just shows how the world is nowadays, litigation galore...... such a shame
thearticle said:
Piper was allegedly paid the nominal sum of £2,000
Having read the judgement, i can see why the judgement went the way it did (not taking sides at all), in that the condition and functionality of the gearbox was the hot potato. And that Hales couldnt prove that there was a fault with it as no independent inspection of the box was prepared for the case.... I think that last point is the difference between a good solicitor and a VERY good solicitor (if your going to base you innocence around a faulty gear box causing it to drop out of gear, leading to the subsequent over rev of the engine, then surely youd want some sort of report to confirm or deny that faults existance)
Still feel bad for the bloke though
Sad situation for Mark. I have been re-reading some 20 year old Fast Lane mags, and he stands out as a genuine enthusiast and very articulate and likeable journalist. His articles partially shaped my interest in cars and racing.
To be in this situation after such a long career must certainly give him a big knock in confidence and must also have worried all you scribes with similar 'privileges'. Keep on bringing us 9 to 5ers the articles we crave!
Chin up Mr Hales and good luck.
To be in this situation after such a long career must certainly give him a big knock in confidence and must also have worried all you scribes with similar 'privileges'. Keep on bringing us 9 to 5ers the articles we crave!
Chin up Mr Hales and good luck.
Surely something had gone badly wrong with the relationship between Piper and Hales. Piper is a very wealthy man and the cost to repair the engine was 'only' £47,000.
To then take legal proceedings, knowing the costs would escalate to hundreds of thousands of pounds, surely suggests a personal vendeta?
I just hope Mark had taken sensible precautions and transfrered all of his assets to family members.
He can then make himself bankrupt and Piper can whistle for his money!
To then take legal proceedings, knowing the costs would escalate to hundreds of thousands of pounds, surely suggests a personal vendeta?
I just hope Mark had taken sensible precautions and transfrered all of his assets to family members.
He can then make himself bankrupt and Piper can whistle for his money!
A difficult call unless you know the full reality of the situation. Having said that, I feel very sorry for Mark Hales as he was not fully to blame in my view. It is almost certainly the case that the engine had been subjected to high stresses many times previously and each one would have weakened it. It would probably have failed at some point in time and almost became a bit of a lottery as to who was driving at the time. To apportion all the blame on one person/driver doesn't seem fair as everyone who had previously driven it since any previous engine rebuild was partly responsible, and that certainly includes David Piper. The admission to the insurers that he missed a gear unfortunately does not help, but has to be a known risk for all parties and the warning from Piper about it indicates that he had possibly done the same himself in the past.
Blowing up a 917 was something that could be forced even when new apparently - listen to the latest Motorsport magazine podcast with Richard Attwoood to find out. But I would certainly think that Mark Hales would drive with as much respect for a car as would be expected when conducting a track test.
I will certainly be following the twitter hashtag #markhalesinvitationaltrophy and would aim to attend any event to show my support for Mark Hales and the wider journalism profession to help ensure I can continue reading the track tests. I will also happily go to any future talks by David Piper as I did last year to hear his tales from racing's past.
Blowing up a 917 was something that could be forced even when new apparently - listen to the latest Motorsport magazine podcast with Richard Attwoood to find out. But I would certainly think that Mark Hales would drive with as much respect for a car as would be expected when conducting a track test.
I will certainly be following the twitter hashtag #markhalesinvitationaltrophy and would aim to attend any event to show my support for Mark Hales and the wider journalism profession to help ensure I can continue reading the track tests. I will also happily go to any future talks by David Piper as I did last year to hear his tales from racing's past.
I just read elsewhere that the legal costs were over £60k, pushing the final judgement up to £111k - not an insignificant amount.
I was wondering though how a 'replica' 917 could still be worth allegedly £1.3m - how much does the real thing cost? Ok I appreciate the use of genuine parts etc, so it's more of a recreation than a replica, but still...
And... since the guy has since sold the car, does anyone know if he made money on it & got nailed for capital gains tax? I'm thinking Karma etc. I appreciate none of us should take sides, but I've had a mate blow the clutch on my old 190E 2.3-16 and I got it fixed, my logic being it would probably have happed to me if not him.
I was wondering though how a 'replica' 917 could still be worth allegedly £1.3m - how much does the real thing cost? Ok I appreciate the use of genuine parts etc, so it's more of a recreation than a replica, but still...
And... since the guy has since sold the car, does anyone know if he made money on it & got nailed for capital gains tax? I'm thinking Karma etc. I appreciate none of us should take sides, but I've had a mate blow the clutch on my old 190E 2.3-16 and I got it fixed, my logic being it would probably have happed to me if not him.
I don't comment on many forum threads as usually my thoughts have been covered by others by the time I get to post, but this story has really touched a nerve.
I agree that he should be trading as a limited company, but not sure given that no contracts were in place that you could demonstrate that you were acting on behalf of the company - I guess that would be a legal consideration again, so open to opinion, which ultimately is the whole case (I haven't read the judgement though).
I certainly do not want to see articles like the 917 being stopped from being published as nobody is prepared to take the risk of driving it. I am pretty certain I'll never get the chance myself to drive something like this, but these cars got us to where we are today.
I enjoy classic cars and own one, seeing the cost of repair as an ongoing part of ownership, however substantial in relation to the market value, but have often thought that when you get into the supercar bracket the costs (mechanical) are often offset by the appreciating car value.
What were the total costs of repair? Think someone may have mentioned £40k, which in real terms is not that excessive.
Guess I agree with many others - time for a collection to start - if all forum users put in a quid, we could probably help out and also buy a suitable example of something exotic for our man to go racing and settle his nerves from this whole affair and put his name back in lights.
I agree that he should be trading as a limited company, but not sure given that no contracts were in place that you could demonstrate that you were acting on behalf of the company - I guess that would be a legal consideration again, so open to opinion, which ultimately is the whole case (I haven't read the judgement though).
I certainly do not want to see articles like the 917 being stopped from being published as nobody is prepared to take the risk of driving it. I am pretty certain I'll never get the chance myself to drive something like this, but these cars got us to where we are today.
I enjoy classic cars and own one, seeing the cost of repair as an ongoing part of ownership, however substantial in relation to the market value, but have often thought that when you get into the supercar bracket the costs (mechanical) are often offset by the appreciating car value.
What were the total costs of repair? Think someone may have mentioned £40k, which in real terms is not that excessive.
Guess I agree with many others - time for a collection to start - if all forum users put in a quid, we could probably help out and also buy a suitable example of something exotic for our man to go racing and settle his nerves from this whole affair and put his name back in lights.
monty quick said:
I just hope Mark had taken sensible precautions and transfrered all of his assets to family members.
He can then make himself bankrupt and Piper can whistle for his money!
Even if he had, you're overlooking the power of a trustee in bankruptcy to unravel those transactions if they were at an "under value"" and purely intended to put assets beyond the reach of a creditor.He can then make himself bankrupt and Piper can whistle for his money!
IroningMan said:
It seems to me that the insurers have done some very successful wriggling. They covered the car for 'driver error' and then rejected the claim on the basis that it was 'mechanical failure'.
There's a basic contradiction here somewhere.
This would have been determined by the forensic engineer's report &/or the precise policy terms.There's a basic contradiction here somewhere.
Reminds me when a wealthy owner asked me if I wanted to do a few laps in his 993 RSR, I declined as I knew that there was no way I could foot the cost of any nasty mechanical woes.
will_ said:
Terminator X said:
Quite frankly the litigation that goes on these days is an embarrassment whether it be this particular case or the cocks chasing piss easy £5k payouts for whiplash "injuries" (never understood what they're actually getting a payment for?). Change in the Law is required to stop it imho as it quite clearly will continue to get worse and worse ...
TX.
What would you suggest?TX.
TX.
Regarding donations - why don't we all just paypal Mark@(insert marks full name here).com ? That's his e-mail according to his "how to drive" site. If he wants to pick the payments up he can! If not I'm sure they'll filter back to our paypal accounts.
http://www.markhales.com/
http://www.markhales.com/
You can see it from both parties' points of view, but (and I realise this is not uncommon) incurring £60k in fees to decide who owes who £50k is insane. I have no doubt that both men have more cash than the average guy on the street, they should have just split the cost 50/50 and got on with their lives.
clubracing said:
As Chris didn't provide the link and many won't have seen it. Here is the judgement from the court case.
http://www.leeds-solicitors.com/news.html
So he was specifically requested to ensure it was in gear (not entirely sure how you ensure this on an old car, the specific request must surely be an admission that it's slightly dodgy but it's had it's day in court and I don't know all the facts).http://www.leeds-solicitors.com/news.html
Feel sorry for the journo, surely as a millionaire owner, you'd suck it up and get on with life, afterall, it's only £40k to repair which isn't much to a millionaire but is a lot to a journo. He can f
k right off with the "loss of use" claim though - surely if it was just about the repair costs, he wouldn't have been claiming for loss of use?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff