RE: PH Blog: you bend you mend

[Blackpuddin]

Esseesse said:

Whether I was loaning an expensive car to a magazine, or my every day car to a friend, I would expect them to put things right if the car ended up in a ditch whilst they were using it. I would not expect them to repair the car if the cambelt went or gearbox ate itself whilst in their possession as these are things that were surely waiting to happen anyway.

This surely lies at the heart of the unfairness of this judgement. No account has been made for the cumulative wear leading up to the engine failure. Hales was the one left without a chair when the music stopped. Obliging him to pay in full for damage to which others had slowly contributed over time just seems wrong.

[Stu_00]

I had the same idea. I think we should get together and save this guy.

Chris - could we not get a sponsored video where a car is donated, video covered and we get the £50K raised for him.

I live to watch the video's, write-up's etc that you all make, especially rare machinery that even if I came into money could not run or for the fact drive!

I am prepared to chip in, as by this post most are!

AndyLB said:

Regarding donations - why don't we all just paypal Mark@(insert marks full name here).com ? That's his e-mail according to his "how to drive" site. If he wants to pick the payments up he can! If not I'm sure they'll filter back to our paypal accounts.

http://www.markhales.com/

[anonymous-user]

monty quick said:

Surely something had gone badly wrong with the relationship between Piper and Hales. Piper is a very wealthy man and the cost to repair the engine was 'only' £47,000.
To then take legal proceedings, knowing the costs would escalate to hundreds of thousands of pounds, surely suggests a personal vendeta?

37k... which i'll wager isn't much different from a normal timed service!
10k was for 'loss of use' which makes this gentlemens agreement even less gentlemanly!

[will_]

Terminator X said:

will_ said:

Terminator X said:

Quite frankly the litigation that goes on these days is an embarrassment whether it be this particular case or the cocks chasing piss easy £5k payouts for whiplash "injuries" (never understood what they're actually getting a payment for?). Change in the Law is required to stop it imho as it quite clearly will continue to get worse and worse ...

TX.

What would you suggest?

Well if there are no independent witnesses to an incident (one persons word vs another) then it should fail. At the moment insurance co's are paying out whiplash claims as they either (a) don't know which way the decision will go in Court and don't want to risk getting lumped with all the court costs or (b) simply want nothing to do with court costs at all due to their exorbitant nature so would rather 50/50 something before it gets there.

TX.

I meant what are your suggestions for litigation in general, which you consider to be an "emabarassment"?

Have you read the judgement? What aspect of it do you think is embarassing?

[ismellburning]

TimJM said:

This doesn't sound fair at all but £10,890.41 for loss of use is taking the piss. He wouldn't be using it anyway - it wasn't a daily hack!

Not taking sides (do we all have to say that?) but the damages for loss of use aren't calculated depending whether he uses it every day. It's as much about the theoretical earning potential of the car while it's out of action.

I think this argument was put across by the claimant's lawyers - another difference between good legal reps and great ones.

[will_]

AyBee said:

He can fk right off with the "loss of use" claim though - surely if it was just about the repair costs, he wouldn't have been claiming for loss of use?

I don't see what the issue is with the "loss of use" claim. Why shouldn't that form part of the claim if it fact it represented a loss which was just as real as the £40k paid out to rebuild the engine?

It was only £10k, or 5 days' earnings if the usual fee was £2k per day. Hardly excessive.

[metzger6]

Ironic that Mr Piper falls into the category known as "Gentleman Racer" when all evidence seems to be to the contrary. If anyone does find a donation fund, please be sure to share it.

[GlynMo]

metzger6 said:

Ironic that Mr Piper falls into the category known as "Gentleman Racer" when all evidence seems to be to the contrary. If anyone does find a donation fund, please be sure to share it.

+1. The word "cock" comes to mind.

[geeks]

I have said my piece on this elsewhere and know Mark personally. I am hoping to get involved in the Mark Hales Invitation Trophy in any way they need me.

Anyone who does wish to donate to Marks appeal/costs fund can send a paypal payment over to [e-mail] I did today as its payday you can also email the address with words of support if you wish i am sure he would appreciate it!

[Kermit79]

Great Pretender said:

Well no, the facts are what 'it boils down to' and in this instance, the facts are that Piper's car broke whilst in the care of Hales, or rather, in the judge's eyes at least, Hales caused damage to Piper's property.

Whether the judgement was the right or wrong one will be argued for eternity, but with little else to go on, I can appreciate why the gavel went the way it did.

It's a fascinating case by virtue of the precedence it sets for the future.

I think we can put you down as a good egg who follows the letter of the law, as Judges in the UK don't use a Gavel, unless he/she is running an auction at the time.

In all seriousness, we (family) run in the Masters series, and these sorts of things happen. Owner invites you to drive their car in 6 hours, you share costs (entry fee etc). Some use the 'you bend it you mend it' agreement, some are insured, some are not, as Chris has pointed out some of the vehicles are difficult to get adequate cover on, without spending considerable sums on cover. You get offered the drive, you think, 'could I cover potential damage?', if the sum is not working in your head you respectfully decline.

I don't know the minutiae of what happened. It does strike me that an agreement has been entered into, and the validity of having something in writing goes without saying on something this valuable. It will prove to bring this grey area into sharp focus moving forward, hopefully leading to all parties being covered in future. I doubt this will stop valuable cars being driven as many of their owners are great gentlemen who wish for others to enjoy them, it may become cost prohibitive for some, but at least it will avoid this unfortunate situation happening again.

I seem to remember Mr Clarkson on Top Gear causing considerable damage to the ex Le Mans Hamilton Jaguar C type (I'm not putting Hales in the same bracket!), which didn't go down well with Hamilton Jnr. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/2999634.s...

[Dr Boxcat]

Taken from the judgement

--

The Defendant himself composed a signed and dated (3 June 2009) detailed
note for Octane’s insurers relatively shortly after the incident. This included
the frank admission that:

"There was no fault apparent with the car before this incident, and I admit
the damage to the engine was caused by my failure to select the gear
correctly”.

--

thats kinda the end of it. poor Mark, what an awful situation to be in.

[AndyLB]

Stu_00 said:

I had the same idea. I think we should get together and save this guy.

Chris - could we not get a sponsored video where a car is donated, video covered and we get the £50K raised for him.

I live to watch the video's, write-up's etc that you all make, especially rare machinery that even if I came into money could not run or for the fact drive!

I am prepared to chip in, as by this post most are!

AndyLB said:

Regarding donations - why don't we all just paypal Mark@(insert marks full name here).com ? That's his e-mail according to his "how to drive" site. If he wants to pick the payments up he can! If not I'm sure they'll filter back to our paypal accounts.

http://www.markhales.com/

Well I just paid a tenner to that address (via paypal gift) and it seems to already be claimed by him as a paypal address, as after payment it stated that I had made a payment to "Mark Hales".

[Gizmoish]

Excellent article - and I think pretty balanced, in the circs.

As I said yesterday when I heard the news, what's more likely in this situation. One: that a skilled and experienced racing driver and journalist with a solid reputation built over many years misses a gearchange and then proceeds to rev the nuts off the engine of an extremely valuable car. Or two: that a forty-year-old racing car that had a bit of a reputation for difficulty 'in period' suffered a failure.

I'd contribute to a fund but that would mean the money going to Piper, who does not come out of this well.

[clubracing]

GlynMo said:

metzger6 said:

Ironic that Mr Piper falls into the category known as "Gentleman Racer" when all evidence seems to be to the contrary. If anyone does find a donation fund, please be sure to share it.

+1. The word "cock" comes to mind.

Though I very much sympathise with the situation that MH has found himself in, the judgement was very clear on why the liability lay with MH and that he had not shown himself in a good light during the court proceedings where as DP had. MH was found to not have taken enough care when driving the car and broken specific instructions whilst doing so, why should DP have to foot the bill for MHs carelessness?

[AyBee]

will_ said:

AyBee said:

He can fk right off with the "loss of use" claim though - surely if it was just about the repair costs, he wouldn't have been claiming for loss of use?

I don't see what the issue is with the "loss of use" claim. Why shouldn't that form part of the claim if it fact it represented a loss which was just as real as the £40k paid out to rebuild the engine?

It was only £10k, or 5 days' earnings if the usual fee was £2k per day. Hardly excessive.

Not excessive but in my opinion, the main issue seems to be the engine blowing up, I wouldn't imagine Hales did it deliberately, it may well have been driver error but that extra £10k is just adding insult to injury IMO.

[Mark Benson]

Stu_00 said:

I had the same idea. I think we should get together and save this guy.

Chris - could we not get a sponsored video where a car is donated, video covered and we get the £50K raised for him.

I live to watch the video's, write-up's etc that you all make, especially rare machinery that even if I came into money could not run or for the fact drive!

I am prepared to chip in, as by this post most are!

AndyLB said:

Regarding donations - why don't we all just paypal Mark@(insert marks full name here).com ? That's his e-mail according to his "how to drive" site. If he wants to pick the payments up he can! If not I'm sure they'll filter back to our paypal accounts.

http://www.markhales.com/

Track Driver Magazine (that Mark contributes to) have set up an account, their tweet states;

There is a Paypal account for donations towards costs or an appeal at [e-mail] Funds not going to Mark or TrackDriver.

[AyBee]

hairykrishna said:

People who are saying 'this could have happened at any time' should read the court judgement. Mr Hales provided a statement to the insurance company saying, essentially, that it was driver error and he caused the damage.

It's harsh that he's got stuck with a massive bill but I don't see why Mr Piper should pay for it just because he's richer.

If you were a millionaire, would you rather see someone you lent your car to (so are obviously familiar with) homeless or suck it up knowing that at least he's still got his house?

[hairykrishna]

GlynMo said:

metzger6 said:

Ironic that Mr Piper falls into the category known as "Gentleman Racer" when all evidence seems to be to the contrary. If anyone does find a donation fund, please be sure to share it.

+1. The word "cock" comes to mind.

What's he done wrong, exactly?

[civicduty]

P2BS said:

I just read elsewhere that the legal costs were over £60k, pushing the final judgement up to £111k - not an insignificant amount.
I was wondering though how a 'replica' 917 could still be worth allegedly £1.3m - how much does the real thing cost? Ok I appreciate the use of genuine parts etc, so it's more of a recreation than a replica, but still...
And... since the guy has since sold the car, does anyone know if he made money on it & got nailed for capital gains tax? I'm thinking Karma etc. I appreciate none of us should take sides, but I've had a mate blow the clutch on my old 190E 2.3-16 and I got it fixed, my logic being it would probably have happed to me if not him.

About 5 million according to the Judgement:

The Claimant, now in his eighties, is a former Formula 1 racing driver who had been a
works driver for Porsche and had raced 917’ s. He owns an original Porsche 917
valued at about £5m and was, until recently, the owner of a replica valued at £1.25m
built using genuine Porsche parts.

[Redlake27]

There is a Paypal account: [e-mail]

Please make sure that you click on 'Personal' then on 'Gift'

That way paypal do not take commission.

This has been set up by Stacy Vickers at Track Driver.


Over the last 30 years, I've enjoyed the work of Mark....and other writers such as Chris, Evo, Octane, Car....even the Top Gear guys. I feel it is time to pay something back for this pleasure.