RE: PH Blog: whence the next McRae?
Discussion
Birzzles said:
fairly unflinching documentary too. Wish the BBC would do more quality stuff like this. shame i missed parts 1 and 2.
You can find them on you tubehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3CkOlf-aMo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M09A3Iu-qfk
I have to say the current state of rallying makes me sad. As a young kid growing up in the Northeast rallying was the only kind of motorsport that existed in my world. The RAC rally would tour the country and you could see all manner of showroom cars flying through the stages at speed and on the edge of their handling envelope.
Today's rallying is nothing of the sort and as a hardcore rally fan, if it doesn't interest me anymore then there is no chance anyone else will enjoy it. I think a number of factors are to blame. The current format, three days with many stages re run two, three, four times is no good. The cars don't resemble what you can drive on the road, the cars have too much grip and are not flamboyant enough. Leob was another problem, too often you would switch on, he'd be winning (again) and his style was so conservative it just wasn't entertaining. Also, a complete lack of variety when it came to manufacturers. I remember Lancia, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Skoda, Seat, Toyota and Ford all entering cars at the same time. That just doesn't happen now.
Do I have the answer? No, no i don't, but i do think the sport needs a relaunch. Free TV coverage for a year on terrestrial TV, lower spec cars (ie group N with a few tweeks), more power, less grip, more manufactures......i think all of that would be a start. It won't happen though and the sport will soon fade into oblivion.
Sad times.
Today's rallying is nothing of the sort and as a hardcore rally fan, if it doesn't interest me anymore then there is no chance anyone else will enjoy it. I think a number of factors are to blame. The current format, three days with many stages re run two, three, four times is no good. The cars don't resemble what you can drive on the road, the cars have too much grip and are not flamboyant enough. Leob was another problem, too often you would switch on, he'd be winning (again) and his style was so conservative it just wasn't entertaining. Also, a complete lack of variety when it came to manufacturers. I remember Lancia, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Skoda, Seat, Toyota and Ford all entering cars at the same time. That just doesn't happen now.
Do I have the answer? No, no i don't, but i do think the sport needs a relaunch. Free TV coverage for a year on terrestrial TV, lower spec cars (ie group N with a few tweeks), more power, less grip, more manufactures......i think all of that would be a start. It won't happen though and the sport will soon fade into oblivion.
Sad times.
I watched this and midway through it said 'How the f
k is it possible that BOTH of the former WRC champions from this country are dead??'
Anyway, cheap shots at the MSA aside, I still think it's nuts you can't go out and buy anything even remotely close to what they're racing in these days. Sort that out and people will come, the TV coverage on Dave was a fair effort a few years ago.
k is it possible that BOTH of the former WRC champions from this country are dead??'Anyway, cheap shots at the MSA aside, I still think it's nuts you can't go out and buy anything even remotely close to what they're racing in these days. Sort that out and people will come, the TV coverage on Dave was a fair effort a few years ago.
Not a day goes by on PH without a thread about how great rally was, and it's demise is so lamented. If only the fking rules would change! Production class cars, better TV coverage, less traction...the answers are bandied about every day. I wish someone would fking listen! The WRC has gotten worse year on year.
king rules would change! Production class cars, better TV coverage, less traction...the answers are bandied about every day. I wish someone would fking listen! The WRC has gotten worse year on year.Baryonyx said:
Not a day goes by on PH without a thread about how great rally was, and it's demise is so lamented. If only the fking rules would change! Production class cars, better TV coverage, less traction...the answers are bandied about every day. I wish someone would fking listen! The WRC has gotten worse year on year.
Unfortunately the FIA seem to take a we know better than you stance to pretty much all motorsport, and in theory yes they do. But with rallying the fans are mostly asking for the cars to be more simple and more production orientated, which would make costs for everyone cheaper. How they keep failing to understand this baffles me.king rules would change! Production class cars, better TV coverage, less traction...the answers are bandied about every day. I wish someone would fking listen! The WRC has gotten worse year on year.Lax Power said:
Sorry to moan but Kris Meeke was all geared up for a Mini drive until he seat was bought out from under him. The sport has always been a business but now its got ridiculous. Talent makes way for chequebooks.
Yep. Given that Meeke had been guided by McRae as well, he was certainly lined up as a potential successor. Sadly the only reoccuring British talent we've had in the WRC the last few years has been Matthew Wilson and, although I'm sure he is a much better driver than me, he isn't in my opinion (and never has been) at WRC levels of talent. As for the WRC now, its on the verge of becoming a lot more interesting in my opinion; Loeb is gone, VW look strong, some talented young blood have finally got (well deserved) seats... just need Red Bull to wake up and sort the coverage out now so people can actually see it.
With regards to the cars, I long for the days of Group A, where the rally cars used in the WRC were a true reflection of those in the showroom: but I think you are day dreaming if you think thats a feasible set of rules for the series at present. Manufacturers just aren't going to produced 4wd showroom models purely to participate in a rallying series that is difficult to follow at the moment. Give the coverage a few years to improve, then maybe that will be more feasible.
As it stands (and it surprises me to say this) I think the new, smaller, 1.6T cars are actually more interesting to watch than the last of the 2.0 World Rally Cars were: but the fact they have so little in common with the showroom models is frustrating. The forthcoming R5 class (which I believe is thought to the basis for the next generation of World Rally Cars) is unlikely to improve this situation, but it should make competition cars cheaper and, hopefully, will bring more manufacturers in: thats the best we can hope for at the moment.
Just to address some of the points raised - I think a cheap shot at the MSA is overstating things a little. Yes, I suggested that they take a lead on this (as the UK's foremost motorsport body, wouldn't you expect them to?) but at no point did I say (or even imply) that they were to blame for the lack of drivers coming through.
But, in my opinion, we could do with a dedicated rally programme aimed at bringing through young talent. Yes, we have the Academy, and that's a great programme, but it's available to all drivers in all disciplines. What I'm talking about here is a youth-oriented rally programme or series, perhaps as a subdivision of the BRC, encouraging pre- or driving-license-age talent to come through and shine specifically on the rally stage, rather than almost exclusively on the track.
To answer the point about Kris Meeke - yes, I'll concede that he did show promise in the latter part of the last season. But pointing to one sole prospect in a sea of competition from other nations rather proves my point. Is he all we've got? I'd like to see some of the names that have been mentioned in the BRC break through, but we've seen so much promising talent come through the BRC that's never quite made the cut in the international arena, and we have to wonder why that is. (And I don't subscribe to the viewpoint that it's all about money - it undoubtedly plays a part, but without talent it's worthless).
But, in my opinion, we could do with a dedicated rally programme aimed at bringing through young talent. Yes, we have the Academy, and that's a great programme, but it's available to all drivers in all disciplines. What I'm talking about here is a youth-oriented rally programme or series, perhaps as a subdivision of the BRC, encouraging pre- or driving-license-age talent to come through and shine specifically on the rally stage, rather than almost exclusively on the track.
To answer the point about Kris Meeke - yes, I'll concede that he did show promise in the latter part of the last season. But pointing to one sole prospect in a sea of competition from other nations rather proves my point. Is he all we've got? I'd like to see some of the names that have been mentioned in the BRC break through, but we've seen so much promising talent come through the BRC that's never quite made the cut in the international arena, and we have to wonder why that is. (And I don't subscribe to the viewpoint that it's all about money - it undoubtedly plays a part, but without talent it's worthless).
Craig Breen - won the WRC Academy before Evans, won the SWRC last year and has just signed a factory Peugeot deal that will see him help develop their new car. British talent is there, but it doesn't matter how good you are if the opportunities aren't there.
Gone are the days of multiple manufacturers who were prepared to gamble on a rookie driver and gone are the days of big budgets with paid drives.
Reality is the WRC is a world away from where it was when McRae and Burns were coming through. If Breen, Meeke etc has come through at a similar time, they would probably have had a better chance of breaking through.
Gone are the days of multiple manufacturers who were prepared to gamble on a rookie driver and gone are the days of big budgets with paid drives.
Reality is the WRC is a world away from where it was when McRae and Burns were coming through. If Breen, Meeke etc has come through at a similar time, they would probably have had a better chance of breaking through.
descente said:
cavebloke said:
I might be the only one; but I'd disagree. Chris Hoy is a legend and he clearly loves cars but I didn't feel he communicated a sense of passion about the sport or Colin's driving style.
Also why was Alister so notably absent?
+1 to thatAlso why was Alister so notably absent?
It was well researched but Hoy is just, well, a bit dull.
But if you want to get anything commissioned these days you have to have a celebrity presenter to give it a 'hook'.
As has been said, Hoy is a legend and I cried like a baby when he won gold again last year but his bits in front of camera were just so flat.
Much as he is polarising character somebody like Clarkson would have done a much better job.
I remember being very impressed by his doumentary on Victoria cross winners (V for valour) a few years ago.
Then again anybody with a professional TV/journalist/documentary background probably would have been a little more entertaining to watch.
Edited by Maldini35 on Monday 28th January 21:57
Unfortunately for me this programme highlighted just how wreckless Colin was. The chopper crash choked me more because it killed 2 young boys. Having said that rallying was only the better for him and I loved his style. Burns showed how you could win and still keep your car the right way up. I haven't watched it for years as it just seems dull and un-involving for the spectator, either on tv or live. I don't know if it has a mainstream future. I do hope so, I'd love to see a Brit doing what Colin or Richard did. Imagine F1 with no Brits! Most the cars are developed here.
Z
Z
matt3001 said:
"Button and Hamilton are at the top of their game, while Di Resta and Chilton are coming through as potential successors."
I don't think Chilton will be a potential successor anytime soon. Be working in Daddy's company when the GP2 dream has come to a close.
His GP2 dream has come to and end... in a Marussia F1 seat for 2013.I don't think Chilton will be a potential successor anytime soon. Be working in Daddy's company when the GP2 dream has come to a close.
Although I do agree with you that it won't be long until he's pushing paper.
DanielSan said:
Baryonyx said:
Not a day goes by on PH without a thread about how great rally was, and it's demise is so lamented. If only the fking rules would change! Production class cars, better TV coverage, less traction...the answers are bandied about every day. I wish someone would fking listen! The WRC has gotten worse year on year.
Unfortunately the FIA seem to take a we know better than you stance to pretty much all motorsport, and in theory yes they do. But with rallying the fans are mostly asking for the cars to be more simple and more production orientated, which would make costs for everyone cheaper. How they keep failing to understand this baffles me.king rules would change! Production class cars, better TV coverage, less traction...the answers are bandied about every day. I wish someone would fking listen! The WRC has gotten worse year on year.In some ways the decline started while they were still competing in the WRC. Ch4 had the highlights, and the viewing figures were less than expected - hence the reason they dropped it.
Also, there were a generation of Brits who never got the breaks: both Higgins, Rowe, Wearden, Milner, etc and that was when there were 7 factory teams!!
Other countries ASN put their hands in their pockets and funded drives for their youngsters; the FFSA put a young Loeb in a Corolla WRC for Corsica 2000. ADAC, RACC, KNAF, etc have all done similar. The MSA can't/won't do the same - but provide media, fitness training, etc So we have PR savvy, fit & healthy drivers - with nowhere to go....
Now there are British & Irish drivers with promise: Breen, Cronin, Bogie, MacCrone, Evans, Fisher, Ingram, etc However, they still need the financial backing to get a drive as there still aren't enough seats out there.
If any of them were Finnish, I'm pretty sure they'd get the backing - I've lost count of all the Finns who put in great drives in Rally Finland, and end up with backing/ drives. They aren't better, they just get more opportunities.
As for Kris Meeke - a huge talent, who still hasn't done a full season in a WRCar, in fact I doubt he's done 10 WRC events in a WRCar.
Also, there were a generation of Brits who never got the breaks: both Higgins, Rowe, Wearden, Milner, etc and that was when there were 7 factory teams!!
Other countries ASN put their hands in their pockets and funded drives for their youngsters; the FFSA put a young Loeb in a Corolla WRC for Corsica 2000. ADAC, RACC, KNAF, etc have all done similar. The MSA can't/won't do the same - but provide media, fitness training, etc So we have PR savvy, fit & healthy drivers - with nowhere to go....
Now there are British & Irish drivers with promise: Breen, Cronin, Bogie, MacCrone, Evans, Fisher, Ingram, etc However, they still need the financial backing to get a drive as there still aren't enough seats out there.
If any of them were Finnish, I'm pretty sure they'd get the backing - I've lost count of all the Finns who put in great drives in Rally Finland, and end up with backing/ drives. They aren't better, they just get more opportunities.
As for Kris Meeke - a huge talent, who still hasn't done a full season in a WRCar, in fact I doubt he's done 10 WRC events in a WRCar.
Northern_Monkey said:
Craig Breen - won the WRC Academy before Evans, won the SWRC last year and has just signed a factory Peugeot deal that will see him help develop their new car. British talent is there, but it doesn't matter how good you are if the opportunities aren't there.
Except that Craig Breen isn't British?Rallying isnt what it was no, but that was when the local events were teeming with entries, it was a little abit cheaper to do, and as a result there were more people through the door, both watching and entering. Its not going to fix itself sadly.
My solution
Just go to an event. Pay £10 for entry and a programme and go stand in some woods or sit in a ditch somewhere, take some mates, some bacon sandwiches and a thermos of tea. If you want to make a day/weekend of it, stay up in a local B&B the night before or after! QUALITY WEEKEND
In the UK alone we had some of the best rally championships in the world, CCC ,autosport, RAC British rally championship, Rallysport magazine , BTRDA, it just went on and on, I dont say something has to change ,I say something is changing but not in the way we would have hoped for, we may need to go back to a more standard spec of car and then work back up, the single make championship was good at bringing the cream to the top, you can have a good day of rallying without the mega money cost of WRC,
any ideas .
any ideas .
I love rallying. All through the 80's and 90's I couldn't get enough if it. Those dark days in the late 80's were a bit like now, no British talent at world level (or at least only occasional drives) and not much rally on TV. And yet through it all came C McRae. And turned our rally world upside down. And then we had Burns.
And now we have Loeb, which coincided with the loss of our trailblazers, and made rallying so much of a bore fest to those within these shores. But if we can do it once in these circumstances, we can do it again.
For me the biggest problem, is that the goal posts moved when McRae became WR champ. Before that time it was just not conceivable that a British driver could win at world level, so the ambitions of many a driver in the 80's laid with the British rally championship, and that in turn attracted drivers of the calibre of Mikkola, Blomqvist, Mouton, with guest appearances from Vatanen, Toivenen, Kankkunen.
Its a bit like F3 being the only realistic level for race drivers and then suddenly we get a driver to F1. It requires a rethink on what British rallying should be, someone may be able to correct me, but I am fairly certain ( at least in Europe) that it is only the BRC that limits the cars to R2 and R3 for their main domestic championship. All the other championships in Europe have WRC or S2000 cars.
The MSA needs to take a serious look at how they can put the pzazz back into the BRC in order to attract the manufacturers, drivers and the TV, and then maybe we can start again.
As an aside, even if the rules changed to allow the RAC rally to tour Britain again, I think it would never reach the heights it did before, almost to the point of not being able to get back onto the stately homes and parks of the Sunday stages, or people lining the route because of the green issues we have now.
And now we have Loeb, which coincided with the loss of our trailblazers, and made rallying so much of a bore fest to those within these shores. But if we can do it once in these circumstances, we can do it again.
For me the biggest problem, is that the goal posts moved when McRae became WR champ. Before that time it was just not conceivable that a British driver could win at world level, so the ambitions of many a driver in the 80's laid with the British rally championship, and that in turn attracted drivers of the calibre of Mikkola, Blomqvist, Mouton, with guest appearances from Vatanen, Toivenen, Kankkunen.
Its a bit like F3 being the only realistic level for race drivers and then suddenly we get a driver to F1. It requires a rethink on what British rallying should be, someone may be able to correct me, but I am fairly certain ( at least in Europe) that it is only the BRC that limits the cars to R2 and R3 for their main domestic championship. All the other championships in Europe have WRC or S2000 cars.
The MSA needs to take a serious look at how they can put the pzazz back into the BRC in order to attract the manufacturers, drivers and the TV, and then maybe we can start again.
As an aside, even if the rules changed to allow the RAC rally to tour Britain again, I think it would never reach the heights it did before, almost to the point of not being able to get back onto the stately homes and parks of the Sunday stages, or people lining the route because of the green issues we have now.
The RAC Rally was a huge spectator event long before McRae and Burns made the sport very popular in the UK.
I remember going to watch the 86 RAC with a huge field of 'big name' stars, multiple works teams across group B and group A, and the crowds were huge with Tony Pond in the Metro 6R4 running in the top 3.
This was before playstation games and dedicated Rally programs on cable/sky.
The next McRae/Burns is out there but even if picked up by a works team no one will even notice in the UK, they eejits in charge of the WRC didnt even manage to sign a TV deal for WRC coverage @ Monte Carlo. Jean Todt should be fired for the mess the WRC is in today.
I remember going to watch the 86 RAC with a huge field of 'big name' stars, multiple works teams across group B and group A, and the crowds were huge with Tony Pond in the Metro 6R4 running in the top 3.
This was before playstation games and dedicated Rally programs on cable/sky.
The next McRae/Burns is out there but even if picked up by a works team no one will even notice in the UK, they eejits in charge of the WRC didnt even manage to sign a TV deal for WRC coverage @ Monte Carlo. Jean Todt should be fired for the mess the WRC is in today.
Jerry Can said:
Its a bit like F3 being the only realistic level for race drivers and then suddenly we get a driver to F1. It requires a rethink on what British rallying should be, someone may be able to correct me, but I am fairly certain ( at least in Europe) that it is only the BRC that limits the cars to R2 and R3 for their main domestic championship. All the other championships in Europe have WRC or S2000 cars.
The MSA needs to take a serious look at how they can put the pzazz back into the BRC in order to attract the manufacturers, drivers and the TV, and then maybe we can start again.
As an aside, even if the rules changed to allow the RAC rally to tour Britain again, I think it would never reach the heights it did before, almost to the point of not being able to get back onto the stately homes and parks of the Sunday stages, or people lining the route because of the green issues we have now.
BRC switched to R2 and R3 cars on cost grounds. FWD doesn't have to mean its boring, the JWRC cars were pretty good (but not cheap).The MSA needs to take a serious look at how they can put the pzazz back into the BRC in order to attract the manufacturers, drivers and the TV, and then maybe we can start again.
As an aside, even if the rules changed to allow the RAC rally to tour Britain again, I think it would never reach the heights it did before, almost to the point of not being able to get back onto the stately homes and parks of the Sunday stages, or people lining the route because of the green issues we have now.
The teams don't want massive tours, its too expensive.
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