RE: PH Blog: the best M3? It's the 1 M!

[Mermaid]

Tex said:

I did 50k miles over 2 years in my CSL and loved it day in day out, it always felt special and would always make me smile. I couldn't find anything to replace it with until the 1M came out, so I swapped it for a 6 month old 1M... which lasted for 4 months and then I sold it!!!

CSL = depth

IM = instant gratification

[Mr Whippy]

andyman_2006 said:

Mr Whippy said:

What is with the SMG bashing?

CSL on track with SMG is super fast.

What is there not to like?


I honestly think some writers just talk out of their bottoms for something to say, rather than actually having something constructive to say.


What is wrong with it? Too slow? Too harsh? Makes you fingers ache? What?


Tell us, rather than just perpetuate nonsense.

Dave

Not sure if you have driven both the SMG and a manual, however I tried both, and a friend of mine had an SMG M3....and some of the comments made here regarding the bashing are very true.

-in auto mode its slow, and unpredictable (much worse than a slish box)
-In a higher shift speed manual mode, its faster, but harsh, and eats clutches way faster than a manual car does
-in town they are Jerky and parking is much easier with the manual

The Manual is more reliable (SMG needs a pump to shift) as its a hydraulic shifted manual, not a proper auto like a torque converter box.

If/When the SMG pump goes faulty the bills are not pretty...or so my dealer tells me ;-) and he had one in while I was there for service in nov 12.

DCT is a huge leap forward in tech, drive-ability and reliability.

All in all the manual is cheaper to maintain, and easier to drive/park.

Each to their own...

Andy

Each to their own.

I call that character.

It's not like it's bad, just not *as* good as some alternatives.

I could happily live with SMG in the CSL because of all the other things the CSL comes with. It's that living with a compromise that makes cars charming and get under your skin. If you try engineer out everything that might offend you end up with your average VAG product.

Dave

[Mr Whippy]

ChrisBuer said:

Mr Whippy said:

430bhp?

I thought it was about 80bhp less than that?

Dave

Standard, yes, remapped no.

Actually to be more precise, nearly all of the 1M's I've seen on a dyno run have put out more than their official BMW figure. BMW quote 340bhp, but most dyno's suggest that this figure is actually at the wheels rather than the crank, so you're closer to 360-370bhp as standard.

Mine has an uprated intercooler, no secondary cats and a remap. My stock figures were 349bhp and 402 lb.ft torque. After the three changes mentioned, it made 431bhp and 485 lb.ft torque on the same rolling road.

Ah ok.

Those mods probably improve it somewhat.

Do you have printouts of the curve before/after.

My biggest initial surprise was how the quoted figures saw peak power at 5500rpm, meaning that last 1500rpm would feel a bit flat... but going on reports of higher peak power and remaps pushing peak power to higher rpm then it probably makes them feel more well balanced (ie, low end grunt is matched by a 6500rpm+ power peak)

Going on the idea of peak power being at 6500rpm I bet it really improves the feeling of the delivery, ie, it's a grunty engine AND a peaky revvy engine.


Dave

[alexk]

German said:

Any particular reason? Or did you also fail to read all of my post and the post it was replying to and assume I was bashing the CSL, when in fact I was grumpy at someone implying a manual transmission is pointless?

Touchy lot you CSL boys arent you. BURN THE MANUAL LOVER!!

Nah, I know people @ BMW and would be good to know.
You are not doing BMW any favors aren't you ?

Personally, I don't care what people think or say about the CSL and the SMG II.
I am happy with both. If others aren't, it's their problem

Back to the subject, the "1M" being the best M3 is just stupid.
Maybe they could include a 997 GT3 RS ? Why not, it could be as well the best M3...
Or shall we have another article "the best M5 is the E90 M3" ?

[andyman_2006]

Slippydiff said:

andyman_2006 said:

Not sure if you have driven both the SMG and a manual, however I tried both, and a friend of mine had an SMG M3....and some of the comments made here regarding the bashing are very true.

I speak as an ex-owner who did 30K miles in 3 years in a CSL.

• Maybe you were lucky, my friend had only 46K on the clock and his SMG pump and Clutch failed......so i guess you have to speak as you find things....my manual has now done 85K not had a clutch change yet, and no SMG pump needed :-)))

andyman_2006 said:

-in auto mode its slow, and unpredictable (much worse than a slish box)

Want an auto ? Buy an auto. Simples.

• Want an Auto that's also manual and drives smooth....buy a DCT...cant say I'd really want an auto...or even a DCT really but would rather an auto with manual option (Like Lexus ISF or Jag XFR) more than a nasty SMG, sorry. However I do prefer to change gear..its more involving and BMW thought so too with this 1M :-) and having driven one its an awesome car, loved every bit of my 1 hour drive.

andyman_2006 said:

-In a higher shift speed manual mode, its faster, but harsh, and eats clutches way faster than a manual car does

It's a performance car, it's primary function is to be driven quickly, so if the 'box changes gears faster, it's brief has been fulfilled.

• if the SMG box changes so quick, then why did SMG E46 M3 not gain faster performance times than the E46 M3 manual car?? I suspect that with the CSL the Weight loss and extra 20bhp played the main part of why the CSL was quicker, not its gearbox!

In the early days prior to the multiple software updates, clutches were an issue. They're not any longer, so I'd dispute the claim that the SMG "eats clutches way faster" than an equivalent manual. My car has never had a clutch and it's now on 74K miles.

• Most Mechanical 'Hydraulic operated' Manual Auto boxes do eat clutches faster....and this SMG was no Different (if you speak to dealers and owners the like they will confirm this) you were maybe lucky, the Ferrari 360 F1 also was harder on clutches than the manual version, and if you look at why the mazza Grandsport has a 'clutch service' every 19K miles,this says something about a SMG type 'manual sequential gearbox'(they call it Cambiocorsa)...yes it changes fast, but its also higher maintenance due to clutch wear...and with the mazza £3000 'clutch service' every 19K miles as quoted by JCT leeds...(i know as i was going to buy a Gransport...this is the reason I didn't) not good news. so compare this with the manual 4200GT and there is no such service every 19K..so which would you own? is this being cheap or just sensible? like the CSL the Gransport only comes with the Cambiocorsa or SMG style 'Box shame.

andyman_2006 said:

-in town they are Jerky and parking is much easier with the manual

How so ? engaging reverse requires you to push the lever as far over to the left as it will go and forward. In my estimation, that's what you'd do in most manual cars. Re-selecting first is equally simple.

• when I tried one, it was much harder to navigate into a small space, and seems much harder than just using the clutch to move slowly..i notice you didn't disagree its jerky and harsh!! ;-))

andyman_2006 said:

The Manual is more reliable (SMG needs a pump to shift) as its a hydraulic shifted manual, not a proper auto like a torque converter box.

I'll reiterate, 74K miles, no SMG related issues.

• you were/are lucky.....wonder if the car has had a pump or clutch since??

andyman_2006 said:

If/When the SMG pump goes faulty the bills are not pretty...or so my dealer tells me ;-) and he had one in while I was there for service in nov 12.

IF a manual (or a DCT 'box) fails and you take it into your authorised BMW dealer for repair, it'll be just as expensive. To expect cheap repair bills would be foolhardy, we're not talking Kia or Daewoo after all.

• only the foolhardy still service an E46 M3 at a main dealer....unless you don't mind your valve clearances NOT being done and still being invoiced for it! and I never said a fast car was CHEAP for running costs, but why pay for work that you don't need to? its human nature to want less running costs whatever you drive and no matter how much money you have so The Kia and Daewoo comment was a bit stupid, consider the 1M having a 5 year service pack...is that seen as cheap/tight??? some would say its good value, why pay more if you dont have to? and its logic that if/when a complex gearbox/shifting mechanism fails it will cost more to put right than a simple version e.g Dual clutch vs manual single clutch...hence my comment over running costs.

andyman_2006 said:

is a huge leap forward in tech, drive-ability.

I don't think anyone is denying that ? It's also faster and requires no skill to change gear smoothly whatsoever. For some, (me included) that detracts from the whole DCT/PDK/DSG experience. So whilst the SMG 'box fited to the CSL may well be flawed, that's part of it's charm insofar as it requires some deft inputs from the driver to make it function well)

• Just be interesting to see how good the CSL could have been fitted with a proper gearbox like the 1M has been.....many people owners included would have chosen the CSL with a Manual....the fact it came with only SMG made them 'make do' as they had no choice! some may love the SMG in the CSl...and like yours maybe had trouble free running...but if the SMG pump fails need to be prepared to get the Visa card out.... I'd prefer not to have that possibility thanks.

andyman_2006 said:

All in all the manual is cheaper to maintain, and easier to drive/park.

Based on my experiences, inaccurate and incorrect on all counts.

• Well If you speak to many dealers or specialists then the SMG was a problem, it did have pump issues and did cause premature clutch wear, maybe the CSL one was special and didn't suffer, and maybe you were lucky....who knows.

See links to other Forum owners with SMG issues....this was from a 2 sec google! I'm sure there are many more.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=6860...

and...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

andyman_2006 said:

Each to their own. . . . .

I'll be sticking to my Daewoo cheap manual m3 car thanks with its cheap £500 clutch change (when it finally needs it) and no £1500 SMG pump ;-))

Indeed

[s m]

andyman_2006 said:

Slippydiff said:

andyman_2006 said:

-In a higher shift speed manual mode, its faster, but harsh, and eats clutches way faster than a manual car does

It's a performance car, it's primary function is to be driven quickly, so if the 'box changes gears faster, it's brief has been fulfilled.

• if the SMG box changes so quick, then why did SMG E46 M3 not gain faster performance times than the E46 M3 manual car?? I suspect that with the CSL the Weight loss and extra 20bhp played the main part of why the CSL was quicker, not its gearbox!

Anyone remember Chris Harris doing the comparison standing start times with a manual vs SMG E46 M3?

[Hair Flick]

will261058 said:

I think the 1M looks fantastic. Amazingly I have yet to see one in the flesh!

Likewise, its the best M for many years for looks. I did finally see one in Reading, was kind of nice to have the two M's side by side. In the flesh it is just fantastic in all proportion and angles to look at.

I dont think I could say that for any of the E6/9 range.

[ZesPak]

Hair Flick said:

In the flesh it is just fantastic in all proportion and angles to look at.

Surely this can't be serious? I could understand that people could forgive it's looks because of other qualities (ex multipla), and that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I find it hard to see how, from any angle, it could be described as "fantastic" in the looks department.

[Hair Flick]

ZesPak said:

Surely this can't be serious? I could understand that people could forgive it's looks because of other qualities (ex multipla), and that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I find it hard to see how, from any angle, it could be described as "fantastic" in the looks department.

True, it is no classic of design but for me its more in my minds view of a boxy M. Not a big fan of the E60 or E9x 3's but the 1M does look more like a true M to my mind. Squat, purposeful "flexing" style. I am an old duffer now, thinking the E39/E46's were the last of the proper M looking cars and this is closer to those older designs than the later bling M's

[s m]

ZesPak said:

Surely this can't be serious? I could understand that people could forgive it's looks because of other qualities (ex multipla), and that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I find it hard to see how, from any angle, it could be described as "fantastic" in the looks department.

I like the looks of it ...but I also find the SZ and Junior Zagato fantastic to look at

[ChrisBuer]

Mr Whippy said:

Ah ok.

Those mods probably improve it somewhat.

Do you have printouts of the curve before/after.

My biggest initial surprise was how the quoted figures saw peak power at 5500rpm, meaning that last 1500rpm would feel a bit flat... but going on reports of higher peak power and remaps pushing peak power to higher rpm then it probably makes them feel more well balanced (ie, low end grunt is matched by a 6500rpm+ power peak)

Going on the idea of peak power being at 6500rpm I bet it really improves the feeling of the delivery, ie, it's a grunty engine AND a peaky revvy engine.


Dave

I didn't take a photo of the standard run but I have it printed on paper somewhere. I should really scan it so I can upload it.

However, I did take a photo on my phone of the best run, which is below:



Regarding your comment "but going on reports of higher peak power and remaps pushing peak power to higher rpm then it probably makes them feel more well balanced", that is exactly what my review picked up on. Scanned article below: (If you right click and copy the URL, then paste it into a new window, you'll get a higher resolution image and be able to read the text!!).

[German]

alexk said:

German said:

Any particular reason? Or did you also fail to read all of my post and the post it was replying to and assume I was bashing the CSL, when in fact I was grumpy at someone implying a manual transmission is pointless?

Touchy lot you CSL boys arent you. BURN THE MANUAL LOVER!!

Nah, I know people @ BMW and would be good to know.
You are not doing BMW any favors aren't you ?

Personally, I don't care what people think or say about the CSL and the SMG II.
I am happy with both. If others aren't, it's their problem

Back to the subject, the "1M" being the best M3 is just stupid.
Maybe they could include a 997 GT3 RS ? Why not, it could be as well the best M3...
Or shall we have another article "the best M5 is the E90 M3" ?

So by voicing dislike an old, no longer used technology I'm damaging the company? Hardly mate. If you like the box then good for you, glad you enjoy the car, but you can't get all pissy when people disagree and accuse them of damaging their employer in some way by expressing an opinion... If I was busy going "Naah mate, the Audi x is waaaay better, so much more steering feel than the BMW y ( )" furry muff, but thats not the case here at all. I think you either misread my first post or the post it was a reply to. Either way

[alexk]

German said:

So by voicing dislike an old, no longer used technology I'm damaging the company? Hardly mate. If you like the box then good for you, glad you enjoy the car, but you can't get all pissy when people disagree and accuse them of damaging their employer in some way by expressing an opinion... If I was busy going "Naah mate, the Audi x is waaaay better, so much more steering feel than the BMW y ( )" furry muff, but thats not the case here at all. I think you either misread my first post or the post it was a reply to. Either way

Fair enough

[Mr Whippy]

ChrisBuer said:

Regarding your comment "but going on reports of higher peak power and remaps pushing peak power to higher rpm then it probably makes them feel more well balanced", that is exactly what my review picked up on. Scanned article below: (If you right click and copy the URL, then paste it into a new window, you'll get a higher resolution image and be able to read the text!!).

I know it's sad but I've spent a lot of time tinkering with torque curve shapes and feeling how they drive.

That feeling of being pushed back harder the longer you rev for is intoxicating, the inverse of that is the being pushed back less and less the harder you rev, and the point at which that ties in with steady or dropping power you can somehow feel it and it doesn't feel nice in my opinion.

I was quite surprised the 1M was like that as standard but it seems that issue is removed with the peak power moved further up the rpm.

I wonder *why* BMW tuned the 1M like that. Probably marketing people again thinking a wide torque band is somehow a selling point... which it is, but the shape and overall delivery is MORE important!

Dave

[FamilyDub]

alexk said:

You are not doing BMW any favors (sic) aren't you?

^ Any company that is worth it's salt should be listening to their staff's (and customer's!) opinions, I'd imagine BMW would prefer negative feedback than none at all.

alexk said:

Personally, I don't care what people think or say about the CSL and the SMG II.
I am happy with both. If others aren't, it's their problem

^ Classic PH; opinion-dismissing. You like SMGII and German prefers manual. That's fine. Let's enjoy the fact that we had/have the choice, eh?

FWIW, I'd almost always prefer three-pedals to an SMG/DSG/DCT 'box, were it available.

alexk said:

Back to the subject, the "1M" being the best M3 is just stupid

That ^ was a blog piece designed to inspire debate... which it clearly has!

[Pugland53]

ZesPak said:

Hair Flick said:

In the flesh it is just fantastic in all proportion and angles to look at.

Surely this can't be serious? I could understand that people could forgive it's looks because of other qualities (ex multipla), and that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I find it hard to see how, from any angle, it could be described as "fantastic" in the looks department.

Have you actually seen one in the flesh? It might not be a 'pretty' car but most people who comment on the car (a lot btw) think it looks fab. Pictures just don't do it justice.

[DHE]

Pugland53 said:

Have you actually seen one in the flesh? It might not be a 'pretty' car but most people who comment on the car (a lot btw) think it looks fab. Pictures just don't do it justice.

Agreed. It shows it has a 'purpose', IMO. Not seen your's around for a while, I must be slipping.

[PKZ4M]

Wow what a thread.....

Having owned an E46 SMG M3, a manual E46 M3 CS, a manual E92 V8 M3, and now a 1M Coupe I have to say they're all great in their own right!

I love a manual transmission, but also thought SMG was great, most passengers were less keen though. Sound of the V8 and straight 6 manual engines is fantastic, but I love the low down torque of my 1M Coupe.

Never drove a CSL, but a mate had one.... and that carbon air box made it sound so awesome.

I think for all great cars the whole ends up being greater than the sum of the parts. That means we can forgive the odd "less than perfect item" as overall the complete package still works.... Isn't that so often the case with really great cars? The mkI Elise I owned had an average Rover engine, but was still great; I loved my, long since departed, Vauxhall Astra powered VX220..... My 1M might be a parts bin special, with cartoon looks, and a turbo motor from a Z4, but overall it works brilliantly.... I'm sure it's the same for a CSL..... was too expensive at launch, had average brakes and a gearbox that made your passengers head rock, but it's hugely desirable and values are only going in one direction...

The debate has been amusing to read, but above all I'm just happy car makers continue to produce such capable cars that attract such interest...... Long may it continue!

Edited by PKZ4M on Saturday 2nd February 11:59

[Pugland53]

DHE said:

Pugland53 said:

Have you actually seen one in the flesh? It might not be a 'pretty' car but most people who comment on the car (a lot btw) think it looks fab. Pictures just don't do it justice.

Agreed. It shows it has a 'purpose', IMO. Not seen your's around for a while, I must be slipping.

It hasn't been out much over the winter, I've been using my old Ka mostly. You'll soon see it out and about when the weather picks up. Then it will be 'stalker alert' again! :-)

[Leins]

PKZ4M said:

Wow what a thread.....

Having owned an E46 SMG M3, a manual E46 M3 CS, a manual E92 V8 M3, and now a 1M Coupe I have to say they're all great in their own right!

I love a manual transmission, but also thought SMG was great, most passengers were less keen though. Sound of the V8 and straight 6 manual engines is fantastic, but I love the low down torque of my 1M Coupe.

Never drove a CSL, but a mate had one.... and that carbon air box made it sound so awesome.

I think for all great cars the whole ends up being greater than the sum of the parts. That means we can forgive the odd "less than perfect item" as overall the complete package still works.... Isn't that so often the case with really great cars? The mkI Elise I owned had an average Rover engine, but was still great; I loved my, long since departed, Vauxhall Astra powered VX220..... My 1M might be a parts bin special, with cartoon looks, and a turbo motor from a Z4, but overall it works brilliantly.... I'm sure it's the same for a CSL..... was too expensive at launch, had average brakes and a gearbox that made your passengers head rock, but it's hugely desirable and values are only going in one direction...

The debate has been amusing too read, but above all I'm just happy car makers continue to produce such capable cars that attract such interest...... Long may it continue!

Are you anywhere near Dublin Phil? If so, you'll have to get the 1M along to a Cars&Coffee during the summer. I'll bring a CSL along