RE: PH Blog: the best M3? It's the 1 M!

[Dale Lomas]

Chris, have you ever driven the homologation E46 M3 GTR? I know it would have to be special to trump the CSL. But the price suggested that maybe it was...

[Pugsey]

Dale Lomas said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Two thumbs up. Made me chortle!

Nope, he (Dale) didn't bash it. Just explained that, for him, a manual is more enjoyable. That's fine. But cmoose re you extended logic it's where do you draw the line. Why draw it at a manual box and say 'tech advances end here' why not draw it earlier and go back to drum brakes - after all disc brakes only make you stop quicker, do they add to the enjoyment? And lets get rid of telescopic dampers/coil springs, they might make you quicker but I remember an old Midget being huge fun!

I'm on the fence re manual ve SMG/whatever. Hammer into a hairpin, hard on the brakes (left foot) bang down four gears on the paddles and blend back onto the throttle and you feel like an f1 driver. Then again same corner getting every manual heel'n toe blip just right is SO satisfying............

Just having fun re techno bit by the way!

[cpufreak]

Dale Lomas said:

SMG is not for me, it's personal opinion - that's why it's a blog piece.

But if you wish for me to quantify why I don't like the CSL's SMG in particular...

... We ran one for a couple of seasons as a rental car. It would boil the shifting fluid regularly when customers got carried away, requiring a full flush which in turn required the car to be 'plugged in'. Which of course means it's off down the BMW dealer we go. Or at least a very well equipped independent. The diff also takes a beating on 'hard' mode and I've seen with my own eyes three broken diffs on CSLs.

Dale, I think the thing with CSLs, is different ones had different problems...

In the 3.5 years I had my CSL, I didn't suffer any issues with the SMG. It never boiled its gearbox fluid, and it did many hundred laps of the 'ring

I did wear a few diffs out, but that was drive shaft bearings from jumping kerbs.

Mine was one which suffered from power steering issues. 3 times I had the rack + pump replaced, under warranty following something going wrong. One time a hose split causing me to spin coming into AF.. and then have to buy a chap a new bike after he fell on the fluid.

For me, the SMG box suited the car, and was part of the experience.

Compared to the DCT in my current E92 M3, it is definitely old tech, and clunky... but that's progress...


I see your point on the 1M being a fun car... but for me it lacks the depth, the multidimensional nature of an E92 M3.. which can be /so/ refined when you want to, and yet such a hooligan for when the need arises.


(n.b. this is my previous manual E92... now have a silverstone DCT one)

And for £35K you can pick up a 2 year old E92 M3, with one of the world's great engines, and an awesome chassis.. which to my mine is a better choice.
This is what I did.

[161BMW]

Chris Harris said:

So do we agree that the ultimate M3 is a CSL with a retro-fitted manual 'box?

Pook - can you arrange this please?

Failing that, I agree with Dale, the 1M is fantastic fun and has just enough lurking mentalist about it to make for a proper driving challenge without ever being dangerous.

The ultimate "all round" E46 M3 is the E46 M3 CS Coupe with BMW Manual Gearbox which benefits from
CSL steering rack, brakes, exhaust manifold so produces more power, better suspension designed to reduce understeer, CSL wheels, CSL steering wheel, CSL handbrake and in the UK at least rarer than a M3 CSL.
Besides all that has all the pure ingredients BMW are famous for
High revving NA straight six - multi award winning engine
RWD
LSD
Manual
Plus Porsche 911 pace, practical, creature comforts, decent fuel economy, great looking car .... Was a bargain when was brand new let alone where prices are now ....

For what is worth I love Manual and SMGII and would love a M3 CSL to accompany my M3 CS .... :-)

Though had the CSL come as a Manual I am sure would have been just as revered .... Btw I stumbled across a copy of Autocar Performance Car of the Year today reviewing M3 CSL; 996 GT3; 360 CS; SL55 AMG; Noble; Caterham; Zonda. 1st 360CS; 2nd GT3; 3rd M3 CSL

Edited by 161BMW on Tuesday 29th January 16:39

[Baryonyx]

Wills2 said:

I've driven quite a few flappy paddle cars on track and they are fantastic and make the whole experience much better for the average driver, which of course I am.

Yes, dumbing down in cars is certainly somewhat to blame for people choosing automatic transmissions on performance cars. Heck, if you can't get it right yourself, just let the car do it for you!

"it's faster!".

[Dale Lomas]

Pookster said:

Dale, we're going to have words you and me. Tut tut.

Tee-hee Drop a stick-shift in yours, then we'll talk about ultimate M3s.

[james28]

without doubt there awesome soooo nearly got one but the only one available at the time was in Ireland and it got snapped up look hard limited run on numbers and the best drivers car since the csl

[aeropilot]

D200 said:

The US Market had manual E46 CSL’s

No it didn't

The CSL was never sold in the USA.

As I understand it, it's because the CF roof panel of the CSL etc means it's structurally different to the all-steel M3 and would have meant a new set of crash tests for USA, which BMW were not going to do for such a limited run production.

Which is also why the 1M didn't get a CF roof panel as BMW wanted to sell it in the USA, and didn't want to have to run a new crash test cert on it etc.

[ChrisBuer]

What a refreshing article

I can't say that I've ever driven a CSL so I'm not in a position to comment (although my father had one on order back when they originally came out). However, I have driven a range of other M cars and personally speaking, none of them are as fun to drive as my little 1M.

I've got into countless debates on here and other forums with people saying "it's not a proper M-car" because it's forced induction, but most of these people have never even driven the car. Their views are that it's sacrilege to give an M branded car anything but a big NA engine and that the 1M is a parts bin. But again, have any of these people actually driven the car? Nope, very few.

I'm glad that I could look past the issues others see in the 1M because what it absolutely is, is a proper M car and I LOVE mine!!

It's a keeper

[Pugsey]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

My last sentence "just having fun re techno bit by the way" was the clue! And I made my thoughts clear re automated v manual in a subsequent post. As you where then!

[Itsallicanafford]

161BMW said:

The ultimate "all round" E46 M3 is the E46 M3 CS Coupe with BMW Manual Gearbox which benefits from
CSL steering rack, brakes, exhaust manifold so produces more power, better suspension designed to reduce understeer, CSL wheels, CSL steering wheel, CSL handbrake and in the UK at least rarer than a M3 CSL.
Besides all that has all the pure ingredients BMW are famous for
High revving NA straight six - multi award winning engine
RWD
LSD
Manual
Plus Porsche 911 pace, practical, creature comforts, decent fuel economy, great looking car .... Was a bargain when was brand new let alone where prices are now ....

For what is worth I love Manual and SMGII and would love a M3 CSL to accompany my M3 CS .... :-)

Though had the CSL come as a Manual I am sure would have been just as revered .... Btw I stumbled across a copy of Autocar Performance Car of the Year today reviewing M3 CSL; 996 GT3; 360 CS; SL55 AMG; Noble; Caterham; Zonda. 1st 360CS; 2nd GT3; 3rd M3 CSL

Edited by 161BMW on Tuesday 29th January 16:39

nice though the CS is, it is not a CSL...read this

http://www.ca-automotive.co.uk/items/M3VsCSLSpecDi...

it compares an M3 to a CSL but as the CS doesn't have any of the weight saving of the CSL you get the picture where the difference lies...the CS is 200Kg heavier..

[CSLmarson]

NDNDNDND said:

The skill? The challenge perhaps? The fun? Because it's more rewarding?

I can't help but think these 'flappy-paddle evangelists' aren't real petrolheads...
Go and play with your Xbox.

you my friend are an idiot,

go play in your nova.

[161BMW]

Itsallicanafford said:

161BMW said:

The ultimate "all round" E46 M3 is the E46 M3 CS Coupe with BMW Manual Gearbox which benefits from
CSL steering rack, brakes, exhaust manifold so produces more power, better suspension designed to reduce understeer, CSL wheels, CSL steering wheel, CSL handbrake and in the UK at least rarer than a M3 CSL.
Besides all that has all the pure ingredients BMW are famous for
High revving NA straight six - multi award winning engine
RWD
LSD
Manual
Plus Porsche 911 pace, practical, creature comforts, decent fuel economy, great looking car .... Was a bargain when was brand new let alone where prices are now ....

For what is worth I love Manual and SMGII and would love a M3 CSL to accompany my M3 CS .... :-)

Though had the CSL come as a Manual I am sure would have been just as revered .... Btw I stumbled across a copy of Autocar Performance Car of the Year today reviewing M3 CSL; 996 GT3; 360 CS; SL55 AMG; Noble; Caterham; Zonda. 1st 360CS; 2nd GT3; 3rd M3 CSL

Edited by 161BMW on Tuesday 29th January 16:39

nice though the CS is, it is not a CSL...read this

http://www.ca-automotive.co.uk/items/M3VsCSLSpecDi...

it compares an M3 to a CSL but as the CS doesn't have any of the weight saving of the CSL you get the picture where the difference lies...the CS is 200Kg heavier..

Yes I agree I never said it was.

Unless someone sticks a Manual in a CSL a manual CS is the closest u are going to get ....

[Loplop]

I've never understood people hating forced induction and ///M being associated.




Yes they are known for their high revving N/A straight sixes, but it's not like they have no experience with forced induction.

Don't bring up the M12s 'reliability' issues either, that's because the BT55 wasn't really designed considering the engine internals.

[obscene]

D200 said:

Cheib said:

You sure the US had manual CSL's ?!?! IIRC they didn't even get the SMG version

My mistake, I searched there and you are correct.

I never thought there was a manual version of it in the US until I very recently read an article about the manual F10 M5. I thought they mentioned in this article that you could get a manual CSL in the US but I must have misread the article I guess.

Personally I like the SMG box in E46 M3s ok. I never drove a CSL but have driven a few standard ones and I like it. I mentioned that you could fit a manual box if you want as the SMG only is a deal breaker for lots of people...

To my knowledge there was no US M3 CSL. They got an M3 CS but it was the same as our M3 CS pack. No carbon airbox etc.

[Mr Whippy]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It read like it wasn't liked because it was 10 years old, old technology.

From my POV I don't like automatics at all and agree on those points, but judging the CSL on what it is, the gearbox is a great example of this kinda box, and it does suit the car quite a lot.

Dave

[Wills2]

Baryonyx said:

Wills2 said:

I've driven quite a few flappy paddle cars on track and they are fantastic and make the whole experience much better for the average driver, which of course I am.

Yes, dumbing down in cars is certainly somewhat to blame for people choosing automatic transmissions on performance cars. Heck, if you can't get it right yourself, just let the car do it for you!

"it's faster!".

I didn't say anything about them being faster, I was more interested in your experiences that have lead you to the conclusion that you don't like SMG on a race track, but I see you've choosen to ignore that.

So I guess you are the later, I.e haven't experienced it but read it's no good so will spout ill informed drivel on the internet.

Having spent the last 3 years in a short shift manual 911 and covered 55k miles in it I can and do appreciate a good manual gear change, trouble is most cars don't have them.

Have your back as well.

[markgize]

CSLmarson said:

ok SMG may be clunky around town, but SMG paved the way for all your DTC systems you see today, it is ten years old now but in my opinion performs fantasticly if you know how to use it properly, its not somthing you can just pick up strait away i have been mastering mine now for the last 6 months.

yes it does pull hard on the diff and breaks your neck into gear but thats all part of the drama of driving a mythical beast like the CSL that and its ear pearcing bark fron the carbon air box !!!!!!!!!!

I do think much of the criticism leveled at the SMG is inaccurate, although, understandable. I have been driving my E46 SMG every day for the past eight months and am still rounding off my technique. Nevertheless, I can say that it is possible to push through seamless shifts both crawling around town and at maximum attack (it is all about rev matching). To say the SMG is rubbish I therefore think is unfair, it has to be mastered, however, I can understand if people are of the opinion that six or eight months is too long to learn a gear change.

[TheArchitect]

the 1M is one of the few cars that are on my must have list. As soon as those numbers come in I am having one as a daily driver.

[Chunkychucky]

jamespink said:

At last the truth! How refreshing that someone has voiced my own thoughts of many years, namely the exotic cars costing fortunes are never as much fun as an affordable competent car, since you never really spank your own really expensive one for fear of blowing it up or rolling it into a ball... Hence a 10 year old M3/M5 is more fun (every day) than a £100k exotic. And you also have £90k in the bank!

x2 also nice to see someone still sticking to their guns that a car with a conventional manual will always be more fun to a purist than one equipped with paddles, whether it be a decent DSG/DCT or a rather worse SMG.