RE: Driven: Renault Twizy
Discussion
Numeric said:
Ultimately, how environmentally friendly are these things. I'm sure things have moved on massively, but I remember doing some work on vehicle recycling as part of the EU move to end of life responsibilty and batteries were an absolute s0d to recycle.
Also you mustn't forget that a huge amount of the CO2 produced in a cars life is in the manufacturing not the running (in my day it was estimated to be over 50% and I'd imagine greater now with better fuel efficiency)so if you have the equivalent of a new engine every X years does that get included in the CO2 figures? The person with the old Micra he keeps going in its dotage is probably one of the most frugal CO2 motorists around?
I do think cars like the Volt are clever though with the range extender engine making it practical to have just one car, an almost toy second car just being a CO2 hog no matter what type it is perhaps.
Yep. And the ingredients for making a battery are dug up using only a shovel and the material is ofcourse present in abundance and NOT in environmental delicate surroundings. Also you mustn't forget that a huge amount of the CO2 produced in a cars life is in the manufacturing not the running (in my day it was estimated to be over 50% and I'd imagine greater now with better fuel efficiency)so if you have the equivalent of a new engine every X years does that get included in the CO2 figures? The person with the old Micra he keeps going in its dotage is probably one of the most frugal CO2 motorists around?
I do think cars like the Volt are clever though with the range extender engine making it practical to have just one car, an almost toy second car just being a CO2 hog no matter what type it is perhaps.
Once dug up it is transported to the harbor by horse and carriage not by monster truck. It is put on the bulk ship by using only winches and the bulk vessel is powered by wind. Once in the industrialized world the basic ingredient is processed using hot air produced by fracking Eskimo's. etc....
You need to switch of your brain for one of these to make sense.
And to the owners. post a video of the 60 mile range in town. NOT!
Numeric said:
Ultimately, how environmentally friendly are these things. I'm sure things have moved on massively, but I remember doing some work on vehicle recycling as part of the EU move to end of life responsibilty and batteries were an absolute s0d to recycle.
Also you mustn't forget that a huge amount of the CO2 produced in a cars life is in the manufacturing not the running (in my day it was estimated to be over 50% and I'd imagine greater now with better fuel efficiency)so if you have the equivalent of a new engine every X years does that get included in the CO2 figures? The person with the old Micra he keeps going in its dotage is probably one of the most frugal CO2 motorists around?
I do think cars like the Volt are clever though with the range extender engine making it practical to have just one car, an almost toy second car just being a CO2 hog no matter what type it is perhaps.
All true, but the electric cars do make towns and cities nicer - no exhaust fumes being pumped into densely populated areas, and much less noise too. Imagine a silent, odourless traffic jam!Also you mustn't forget that a huge amount of the CO2 produced in a cars life is in the manufacturing not the running (in my day it was estimated to be over 50% and I'd imagine greater now with better fuel efficiency)so if you have the equivalent of a new engine every X years does that get included in the CO2 figures? The person with the old Micra he keeps going in its dotage is probably one of the most frugal CO2 motorists around?
I do think cars like the Volt are clever though with the range extender engine making it practical to have just one car, an almost toy second car just being a CO2 hog no matter what type it is perhaps.
Perd Hapley said:
Numeric said:
Ultimately, how environmentally friendly are these things. I'm sure things have moved on massively, but I remember doing some work on vehicle recycling as part of the EU move to end of life responsibilty and batteries were an absolute s0d to recycle.
Also you mustn't forget that a huge amount of the CO2 produced in a cars life is in the manufacturing not the running (in my day it was estimated to be over 50% and I'd imagine greater now with better fuel efficiency)so if you have the equivalent of a new engine every X years does that get included in the CO2 figures? The person with the old Micra he keeps going in its dotage is probably one of the most frugal CO2 motorists around?
I do think cars like the Volt are clever though with the range extender engine making it practical to have just one car, an almost toy second car just being a CO2 hog no matter what type it is perhaps.
All true, but the electric cars do make towns and cities nicer - no exhaust fumes being pumped into densely populated areas, and much less noise too. Imagine a silent, odourless traffic jam!Also you mustn't forget that a huge amount of the CO2 produced in a cars life is in the manufacturing not the running (in my day it was estimated to be over 50% and I'd imagine greater now with better fuel efficiency)so if you have the equivalent of a new engine every X years does that get included in the CO2 figures? The person with the old Micra he keeps going in its dotage is probably one of the most frugal CO2 motorists around?
I do think cars like the Volt are clever though with the range extender engine making it practical to have just one car, an almost toy second car just being a CO2 hog no matter what type it is perhaps.
The real purpose of an EV is that very many people have a fixed and short regular commute, either to work or just the shops. It's just more pleasant to do this in easy, quiet conditions.
I like the idea of the EV because if there are enough of them it will make a real difference to the noise levels of urban living.
I really enjoyed driving the one I had a go in. Personally I don't think the Twizy is really a UK car. If you live in a warmer climate (such as France south of La Rochelle for example) and go no further than 50 miles there and back to work it makes a lot of sense. I've seen a couple about actually.
What Chris says about Renault's overall strategy is pretty insightful - though I'd argue it's more of a reaction than a pro-active strategy. It's been very, very brave of them to take the route they have, Full marks. Electric cars have the one, vast advantage that nobody ever really touches on. If you have a drive or a garage - that is convenience. No more petrol stations. Safe!
What Chris says about Renault's overall strategy is pretty insightful - though I'd argue it's more of a reaction than a pro-active strategy. It's been very, very brave of them to take the route they have, Full marks. Electric cars have the one, vast advantage that nobody ever really touches on. If you have a drive or a garage - that is convenience. No more petrol stations. Safe!
Edited by W124 on Wednesday 30th January 13:38
Edited by W124 on Wednesday 30th January 13:38
amstrange1 said:
DonkeyApple said:
I really don't understand why they don't discount the crap out of them down to cost and make their turn on enforced finance and battery hire.
That would be to assume that they're making money on them as they currently stand...If they started seeing the scooter, train, bus, taxi and the bicycle as the competition and not cars then they might start to make progress.
Why build a business modeal around the principle of trying to entice a small number of people out of a superior product when the vast majority of the potential client base are using inferior products. I.e just where is the logic in trying to get car drivers (who make up the smallest group of travellers in a city) and are traveling in a superior product when the vast majority of people are on trains, buses, bikes, scooters and walking. It is this massive, latter group that needs to be targetted, not car drivers.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 30th January 13:51
G7HAM said:
I've got one and love the fact its so basic!
Great for short trips about, in and out of local town etc
Its a good 3rd or 4th car (5th with Mr Harris)
Shame not so many others have adopted these, Renault only registered 250 odd to date and at least 50 must be in showrooms!
I think you answered your own question. It's no use as primary transport, not even a 2nd car. Therefore it becomes only a toy at a 4th or 5th car. But if you can afford to have something this value as a 5th car then chances are you might not live in a town (nice big country house), so it would be useless. Or you are not so strapped for money that running a supposed "cheap" electric car has no meaning.Great for short trips about, in and out of local town etc
Its a good 3rd or 4th car (5th with Mr Harris)
Shame not so many others have adopted these, Renault only registered 250 odd to date and at least 50 must be in showrooms!
I'm glad you have one and enjoy it, but lets face it you have it because you wanted it, not because you needed or even have to rely on it.
I love the idea of the Twizzy, it's like a four wheel version of my C1, but as mentioned above, the battery rental makes it look more expensive to run than first thought.
Public battery charging points are starting to spring up, so I don't see that as a huge problem, but I think the market is limited to people who have multiple transport options already.
What isn't clear from the report is whether or not it's actually fun to drive ? Sure, it's not going to be that quick, but in city use that's now irrelevant, but is it fun to throw through corners ? I would guess at "Yes" not withstanding the comment that they don't oversteer.
I do find them attractive, but the running costs would have to be lower.
Public battery charging points are starting to spring up, so I don't see that as a huge problem, but I think the market is limited to people who have multiple transport options already.
What isn't clear from the report is whether or not it's actually fun to drive ? Sure, it's not going to be that quick, but in city use that's now irrelevant, but is it fun to throw through corners ? I would guess at "Yes" not withstanding the comment that they don't oversteer.
I do find them attractive, but the running costs would have to be lower.
See, I look at this, and see things a little differently:
Ram a motorbike engine in the back. Big fun, great city car, circumvent the congestion charge etc. But then I'm pretty much the environmental anti-Christ(!)
In fairness, the thought occurred to me when looking at a G-Wizz, but those things offend me period, at least the twizzy looks entertaining
Ram a motorbike engine in the back. Big fun, great city car, circumvent the congestion charge etc. But then I'm pretty much the environmental anti-Christ(!)
In fairness, the thought occurred to me when looking at a G-Wizz, but those things offend me period, at least the twizzy looks entertaining
BOR said:
Public battery charging points are starting to spring up, so I don't see that as a huge problem
I think there are several issues actually.1. Location, there might be a public one, but if it's not where you need to be or need to park then it's of no real use.
2. Most cities/towns struggle for parking spaces anyhow. How can you guarantee you'll be able to use a public charging point, even more so when it takes hours to charge, so chances are nobody will be parked there for just a couple of mins.
3. What sort of cost is the electricity? Or rather how long do you think it'll be until private companies offer charging but at hugely inflated rates?
4. Vandalism if someone unplugs or tampers with your car while you are gone.
5. Charging points out of order. We all know things break and we all know councils are usually slow to fix and sort stuff. If you have a charging point and it doesn't work, yet you can't get home until you've charged your car you will be screwed.
6. Parking costs, how long will it be before you have to pay to park as well as pay to charge at the same time?
Something I missed on the first read of the article is Chris saying about Dacia being 'antiquated'
Just wondering if you could pad that out a bit Chris? Last time I checked, the Sandero is using the same engines as the 2013 spec Clio, the same touchscreen even..... Yes the interiors are last/previous generation, but is 'antiquated' the right word?
Just wondering if you could pad that out a bit Chris? Last time I checked, the Sandero is using the same engines as the 2013 spec Clio, the same touchscreen even..... Yes the interiors are last/previous generation, but is 'antiquated' the right word?
300bhp/ton said:
2. Most cities/towns struggle for parking spaces anyhow. How can you guarantee you'll be able to use a public charging point, even more so when it takes hours to charge, so chances are nobody will be parked there for just a couple of mins.
3. What sort of cost is the electricity? Or rather how long do you think it'll be until private companies offer charging but at hugely inflated rates?
4. Vandalism if someone unplugs or tampers with your car while you are gone.
5. Charging points out of order. We all know things break and we all know councils are usually slow to fix and sort stuff. If you have a charging point and it doesn't work, yet you can't get home until you've charged your car you will be screwed.
6. Parking costs, how long will it be before you have to pay to park as well as pay to charge at the same time?
I saw a charging point in a car park in Richmond (very telling !) on monday night. It was one post with it's associated space in the corner of the car park. I think the post and electricity are owned by a private company. You join their scheme and they give you a smart card that you swipe to access the connector. I think you have to pay for the space too.3. What sort of cost is the electricity? Or rather how long do you think it'll be until private companies offer charging but at hugely inflated rates?
4. Vandalism if someone unplugs or tampers with your car while you are gone.
5. Charging points out of order. We all know things break and we all know councils are usually slow to fix and sort stuff. If you have a charging point and it doesn't work, yet you can't get home until you've charged your car you will be screwed.
6. Parking costs, how long will it be before you have to pay to park as well as pay to charge at the same time?
Tesco in West Kensington has a couple of charging spaces. Never seen them being used though. I assume you have to pay for the leccy, but the space must be free if you're shopping there.
Dodgy man maths - and please shoot me down cos I can't be right. All numbers are pure make believe but it's the ratios I'm messing around with.
You have a normal car that during production used 100 tonnes of C02 and during it's running life of say 10 years used another 100 over 100,000 miles
But you decide to get an EV as well to be environemntal (you can't have it as your only car cos you need to do distances as well) and that produces 100 tonnes CO2 during production and new batteries over the same life. You do half your mileage in this car and produce no CO2 (i'm being generous)
So using this dodgy maths total CO2 use is
Single car = 200 tonnes CO2 (100 tonnes production and 100 tonnes fuel)
Car and EV = 250 tonnes CO2 (100 tonnes car production, 100 tonnes EV and Batteries production and 50 tonnes fuel)
So only if the EV is your only car is it more environmental. I'm being thick surely??
(Are EVs much more efficient to build?)
You have a normal car that during production used 100 tonnes of C02 and during it's running life of say 10 years used another 100 over 100,000 miles
But you decide to get an EV as well to be environemntal (you can't have it as your only car cos you need to do distances as well) and that produces 100 tonnes CO2 during production and new batteries over the same life. You do half your mileage in this car and produce no CO2 (i'm being generous)
So using this dodgy maths total CO2 use is
Single car = 200 tonnes CO2 (100 tonnes production and 100 tonnes fuel)
Car and EV = 250 tonnes CO2 (100 tonnes car production, 100 tonnes EV and Batteries production and 50 tonnes fuel)
So only if the EV is your only car is it more environmental. I'm being thick surely??
(Are EVs much more efficient to build?)
Edited by Numeric on Wednesday 30th January 15:14
tylerama said:
I saw a charging point in a car park in Richmond (very telling !) on monday night. It was one post with it's associated space in the corner of the car park. I think the post and electricity are owned by a private company. You join their scheme and they give you a smart card that you swipe to access the connector. I think you have to pay for the space too.
Tesco in West Kensington has a couple of charging spaces. Never seen them being used though. I assume you have to pay for the leccy, but the space must be free if you're shopping there.
I'm certainly not against EV cars, but I do honestly believe it's all smoke and mirrors with a healthy dosing of BS. For example, for it to be truly viable that Tesco car park would need charging points for every bay. That's a lot of money on infrastructure and someone has to pay for it.Tesco in West Kensington has a couple of charging spaces. Never seen them being used though. I assume you have to pay for the leccy, but the space must be free if you're shopping there.
Perd Hapley said:
All true, but the electric cars do make towns and cities nicer - no exhaust fumes being pumped into densely populated areas, and much less noise too. Imagine a silent, odourless traffic jam!
I've almost been mown down by a G-Wizz in london, twice in recent years. Makes you realise that a lot of our awareness must come from sound and not just vision. They are eerily quiet as they zip by.tylerama said:
Perd Hapley said:
All true, but the electric cars do make towns and cities nicer - no exhaust fumes being pumped into densely populated areas, and much less noise too. Imagine a silent, odourless traffic jam!
I've almost been mown down by a G-Wizz in london, twice in recent years. Makes you realise that a lot of our awareness must come from sound and not just vision. They are eerily quiet as they zip by.At "residential street" speeds, the vast majority of the noise from modern petrol cars is from the tyres, anyway.
Numeric said:
Ultimately, how environmentally friendly are these things. I'm sure things have moved on massively, but I remember doing some work on vehicle recycling as part of the EU move to end of life responsibilty and batteries were an absolute s0d to recycle.
Also you mustn't forget that a huge amount of the CO2 produced in a cars life is in the manufacturing not the running (in my day it was estimated to be over 50% and I'd imagine greater now with better fuel efficiency)so if you have the equivalent of a new engine every X years does that get included in the CO2 figures? The person with the old Micra he keeps going in its dotage is probably one of the most frugal CO2 motorists around?
I do think cars like the Volt are clever though with the range extender engine making it practical to have just one car, an almost toy second car just being a CO2 hog no matter what type it is perhaps.
Exactly. If the government is all about CO2 reduction and our tax is calculated on that, why isn't manufacturing CO2 factored in too ? I run an S reg golf, yet those who change their cars every 2-3 years get nil road tax/VED, yet their new car is releasing CO2 via it's manufacture.Also you mustn't forget that a huge amount of the CO2 produced in a cars life is in the manufacturing not the running (in my day it was estimated to be over 50% and I'd imagine greater now with better fuel efficiency)so if you have the equivalent of a new engine every X years does that get included in the CO2 figures? The person with the old Micra he keeps going in its dotage is probably one of the most frugal CO2 motorists around?
I do think cars like the Volt are clever though with the range extender engine making it practical to have just one car, an almost toy second car just being a CO2 hog no matter what type it is perhaps.
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