RE: Driven: Renault Twizy
Discussion
tylerama said:
Perd Hapley said:
All true, but the electric cars do make towns and cities nicer - no exhaust fumes being pumped into densely populated areas, and much less noise too. Imagine a silent, odourless traffic jam!
I've almost been mown down by a G-Wizz in london, twice in recent years. Makes you realise that a lot of our awareness must come from sound and not just vision. They are eerily quiet as they zip by.
kambites said:
One could argue that if someone steps out into the road without looking, it's their own stupid bloody fault if they get run over.
At "residential street" speeds, the vast majority of the noise from modern petrol cars is from the tyres, anyway.
Actually I'd disagree, being that I don't have a driveway I wash my cars on the road. Twice I've nearly backstepped into a vehicle. One a Prius and the other Lexus hybrid.At "residential street" speeds, the vast majority of the noise from modern petrol cars is from the tyres, anyway.
I know the onus is always look, but when they are silent and somewhat approach by stealth it really is quite different and I think does make it a lot harder to detect them approaching.
Maybe, but for me the upsides of quietness significantly outweigh the downsides. If you're in the habit of stepping backwards into a road without looking, one day you'll get hit by a cyclist even if there are no electric cars on the road.
Personally, I'd never wash a car on the public road. If I didn't have a drive, my car would either stay dirty or I'd pay someone with some private land to clean it.
Personally, I'd never wash a car on the public road. If I didn't have a drive, my car would either stay dirty or I'd pay someone with some private land to clean it.
kambites said:
Maybe, but for me the upsides of quietness significantly outweigh the downsides. If you're in the habit of stepping backwards into a road without looking, one day you'll get hit by a cyclist even if there are no electric cars on the road.
I guess its one of those situations you need to experience. It's not as if I'm not paying attention or being reckless. Lets say you are by the drivers door (so middle of the road), bucket and sponge in hand. When you hear a noise you continually check the road both ways. There's room for a vehicle to pass you, but common sense says stand up straight and lean in towards your vehicle (a cyclist has plenty of room and the gears/pedals are generally louder than the EV cars). So it's not an issue, however you generally wouldn't want to take even half a step back if there was another vehicle.With the EV's they get right up next to you before you sense/hear them or catch them in the corner of your eye.
As I said the onus is to look, but when a car is much much harder to notice it approaching, then it simply gives you less time to react and less chance to become aware of it.
The trouble is there's a number of issues with electric vehicles, and the Twizy in particular, any one of which is a showstopper.
In this country, if it hasn't got windows you cannot market it as a car. If it was sold by Vespa (ideally a few grand cheaper too) as a luxury, trendy scooter+, then it would be looked at very differently. As it's a Renault, it's being viewed, and reviewed, as a car - and obviously is going to fall short in that respect.
Also, nobody seems to have highlighted the massive issue with public charging points - they don't become available when you've finished charging. Even if your car could charge in 1 hour, if you've parked there at 9am and aren't back until 5pm, you're blocking the charger for 8 hours. If they implement a system where I have to be back to move my car when it's finished charging, then it'll break up my day - I'm not interrupting my meeting or cinema trip or meal to go and move my car.
I think that this easily overlooked but simple problem may in fact be the number 1 killer for electric vehicles. Unless there is a charging point by literally every single parking space or battery swaps everywhere, then there's no palatable solution to this.
In this country, if it hasn't got windows you cannot market it as a car. If it was sold by Vespa (ideally a few grand cheaper too) as a luxury, trendy scooter+, then it would be looked at very differently. As it's a Renault, it's being viewed, and reviewed, as a car - and obviously is going to fall short in that respect.
Also, nobody seems to have highlighted the massive issue with public charging points - they don't become available when you've finished charging. Even if your car could charge in 1 hour, if you've parked there at 9am and aren't back until 5pm, you're blocking the charger for 8 hours. If they implement a system where I have to be back to move my car when it's finished charging, then it'll break up my day - I'm not interrupting my meeting or cinema trip or meal to go and move my car.
I think that this easily overlooked but simple problem may in fact be the number 1 killer for electric vehicles. Unless there is a charging point by literally every single parking space or battery swaps everywhere, then there's no palatable solution to this.
Edited by Dazed & Confused on Wednesday 30th January 15:36
DonkeyApple said:
Perd Hapley said:
All true, but the electric cars do make towns and cities nicer - no exhaust fumes being pumped into densely populated areas, and much less noise too. Imagine a silent, odourless traffic jam!
Exactly. The enviro loonies have buggered EVs because they have simply leapt in and lied and misled people to try and force their agenda.The real purpose of an EV is that very many people have a fixed and short regular commute, either to work or just the shops. It's just more pleasant to do this in easy, quiet conditions.
I like the idea of the EV because if there are enough of them it will make a real difference to the noise levels of urban living.
DonkeyApple said:
True, but that can only be a volume thing, a problem they will never surpass if they don't attract volume. These sorts of cars should cost almost nothing to build and if they are amortising investment into the cost then it can never suceed. When you have to define the market for your own product you just can't price it up in the normal way. Everyone talks about the inconvenience of EVs but this is a total red herring. It is 100% about price. It offers nothing price wise.
If they started seeing the scooter, train, bus, taxi and the bicycle as the competition and not cars then they might start to make progress.
Why build a business modeal around the principle of trying to entice a small number of people out of a superior product when the vast majority of the potential client base are using inferior products. I.e just where is the logic in trying to get car drivers (who make up the smallest group of travellers in a city) and are traveling in a superior product when the vast majority of people are on trains, buses, bikes, scooters and walking. It is this massive, latter group that needs to be targetted, not car drivers.
I don't disagree that EVs need to be cheaper to appeal, but you won't have a business for long if you're losing money hand over fist on the product you're selling.If they started seeing the scooter, train, bus, taxi and the bicycle as the competition and not cars then they might start to make progress.
Why build a business modeal around the principle of trying to entice a small number of people out of a superior product when the vast majority of the potential client base are using inferior products. I.e just where is the logic in trying to get car drivers (who make up the smallest group of travellers in a city) and are traveling in a superior product when the vast majority of people are on trains, buses, bikes, scooters and walking. It is this massive, latter group that needs to be targetted, not car drivers.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 30th January 13:51
alangla said:
DonkeyApple said:
Perd Hapley said:
All true, but the electric cars do make towns and cities nicer - no exhaust fumes being pumped into densely populated areas, and much less noise too. Imagine a silent, odourless traffic jam!
Exactly. The enviro loonies have buggered EVs because they have simply leapt in and lied and misled people to try and force their agenda.The real purpose of an EV is that very many people have a fixed and short regular commute, either to work or just the shops. It's just more pleasant to do this in easy, quiet conditions.
I like the idea of the EV because if there are enough of them it will make a real difference to the noise levels of urban living.
-sitting in the office now I hear generally tyre noise from vehicles moving at speed (town/city)
-the engines I hear are generally those of lorries, buses and trucks. Things unlikely to become EV's.
-In London where I used to work they had just deployed some EV buses that used a generator to power the motors. At idle this was MUCH LOUDER than the antique Route Master diesel buses that are also used on this bus route. I was amazed at how loud it was walking past it.
-Not all EV's are quiet, have you ever heard the noise a milk float makes?
Ianv12 said:
Drove one of these up the Goodwood hill last year, was excellent fun. I got up to the top speed (well 54mph) coming up to the finish line
Same, I was the first person to drive one up the hill in the morning. It was a proper hoot, much moreso than the 500 Abarth EsseEsse I drove later that day. Must be the added dimension of being so exposed to the elements.Oh, apart from getting the hardbrake stuck on the way out and holding everybody up whilst waiting to go. Felt like an eternity before we freed it!
Ianv12 said:
Drove one of these up the Goodwood hill last year, was excellent fun. I got up to the top speed (well 54mph) coming up to the finish line
Makes you wonder what you could get it to do if you fettled the motor and batteries. Anyone familiar with the R/C world will know how brushless motors perform vs the traditional brushed motors. If you dumped the rear seat to make room for more batteries I suspect you could turn the Twizzy into a Whizzy little car.A note about charging these things. There are a few completely free three-phase charging points for electric cars in Brighton - it's free to charge them and free to park in the space too (if you know Brighton you;ll know free parking is rare!)
There are often little electric commercial vehicles charging in the bays, and I guess if you could charge for free this would make it very cheap motoring.
Although I assume that if/when this idea does catch on that the council will start to charge to charge, as it were.
Never seen a Tesla/Fischer being charged though.
I wonder if you can charge an old milk float with them? <goes off to classifieds>
There are often little electric commercial vehicles charging in the bays, and I guess if you could charge for free this would make it very cheap motoring.
Although I assume that if/when this idea does catch on that the council will start to charge to charge, as it were.
Never seen a Tesla/Fischer being charged though.
I wonder if you can charge an old milk float with them? <goes off to classifieds>
amstrange1 said:
DonkeyApple said:
True, but that can only be a volume thing, a problem they will never surpass if they don't attract volume. These sorts of cars should cost almost nothing to build and if they are amortising investment into the cost then it can never suceed. When you have to define the market for your own product you just can't price it up in the normal way. Everyone talks about the inconvenience of EVs but this is a total red herring. It is 100% about price. It offers nothing price wise.
If they started seeing the scooter, train, bus, taxi and the bicycle as the competition and not cars then they might start to make progress.
Why build a business modeal around the principle of trying to entice a small number of people out of a superior product when the vast majority of the potential client base are using inferior products. I.e just where is the logic in trying to get car drivers (who make up the smallest group of travellers in a city) and are traveling in a superior product when the vast majority of people are on trains, buses, bikes, scooters and walking. It is this massive, latter group that needs to be targetted, not car drivers.
I don't disagree that EVs need to be cheaper to appeal, but you won't have a business for long if you're losing money hand over fist on the product you're selling.If they started seeing the scooter, train, bus, taxi and the bicycle as the competition and not cars then they might start to make progress.
Why build a business modeal around the principle of trying to entice a small number of people out of a superior product when the vast majority of the potential client base are using inferior products. I.e just where is the logic in trying to get car drivers (who make up the smallest group of travellers in a city) and are traveling in a superior product when the vast majority of people are on trains, buses, bikes, scooters and walking. It is this massive, latter group that needs to be targetted, not car drivers.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 30th January 13:51
Govts have been silly in offering buyer cashbacks as this money is just added to the sale price so in fact renders it pointless. Heaping a massive taxation levy on firms of a certain size which do not sell 'x' units of EVs is the smart route as those companies will have to shift 'x' number of units a year or be hit with punitive taxes on other sales so will price them where the buyers are and thus a market will be created which can be built upon.
Edited by DonkeyApple on Wednesday 30th January 15:58
300bhp/ton said:
I know I've just being saying about the low noise of certain EV's. But in terms of urban area noise I'm still unconvinced for these reasons:
-sitting in the office now I hear generally tyre noise from vehicles moving at speed (town/city)
-the engines I hear are generally those of lorries, buses and trucks. Things unlikely to become EV's.
-In London where I used to work they had just deployed some EV buses that used a generator to power the motors. At idle this was MUCH LOUDER than the antique Route Master diesel buses that are also used on this bus route. I was amazed at how loud it was walking past it.
-Not all EV's are quiet, have you ever heard the noise a milk float makes?
You only have to go outside when it has snowed in London to suddenly appreciate the enormous noise all vehicles combined make. The silence is deafening. Most main arteries in central London have background noise too loud to make phone calls on the street properly.-sitting in the office now I hear generally tyre noise from vehicles moving at speed (town/city)
-the engines I hear are generally those of lorries, buses and trucks. Things unlikely to become EV's.
-In London where I used to work they had just deployed some EV buses that used a generator to power the motors. At idle this was MUCH LOUDER than the antique Route Master diesel buses that are also used on this bus route. I was amazed at how loud it was walking past it.
-Not all EV's are quiet, have you ever heard the noise a milk float makes?
Much of this noise is cars, but the tyre noise of a true mini EV will be noteably less. The whine is negligable in contrast to a diesel pulling away at the lights.
And the air quality is terrible.
Ah an electric car thread
Suddenly everyone transforms from a powerfully built director with a HUGE house and masive driveway and becomes a poor photocopier salemen that has a 300 mile commute and they live in a 25th floor flat with parking 5 miles away and a poorly Granmother which must be visted at 2am twice a week
Suddenly everyone transforms from a powerfully built director with a HUGE house and masive driveway and becomes a poor photocopier salemen that has a 300 mile commute and they live in a 25th floor flat with parking 5 miles away and a poorly Granmother which must be visted at 2am twice a week
Yes the Twizy is not a car designed with the UK in mind. The Smart crossblade of electric vehicles. I wouldn't buy one in the UK either, you would have had a similar viceral experience riding a quad bike or a golf car.
This sort of open element cars don't work in the UK even a car loved by Car reviewers. My friend had the same joy of someone pissing in his Ariel Atom on a Saturday nite in Dartford.
You mentioned your thoughts about charging and people tampering with them. We have had car power points in Scandinavia for years. Most of the supermarkets and other carparks outside of the UK are seeing this as an oportunity to get people to park and spend time/money there.
Ever tried getting planning consent for a Petrol station in a built up area? Consider the lengths that companies go to keep people in their store next time you are walking the grey path in an Ikea store..
At the moment you buy car makers make an electric car and as an owner you have to provide the electricity.
There is already a solution to your problem that Tesla realised this chicken and egg issue with electic cars and so have invested in the charging stations and electricty generation in California with Solar feilds. They make local electricty and you don't have to pay for the electricity when you charge at their stations. So if these guys in California can do this, it will be inevitable that other Big car makers will, Germany is committed to getting more renewable energy, so it would be nieve to think that BMW/VW/Merc etc won't want to produce the power that you put into their cars.
If you can have something that does a 1/4 mile in 12.4, a range of 300miles, 400NM and you don't pay for the fuel all you have to pay for is the tyres
Have a look at this car review before you bury your head in the sand...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kCG-WqpVnI
This sort of open element cars don't work in the UK even a car loved by Car reviewers. My friend had the same joy of someone pissing in his Ariel Atom on a Saturday nite in Dartford.
You mentioned your thoughts about charging and people tampering with them. We have had car power points in Scandinavia for years. Most of the supermarkets and other carparks outside of the UK are seeing this as an oportunity to get people to park and spend time/money there.
Ever tried getting planning consent for a Petrol station in a built up area? Consider the lengths that companies go to keep people in their store next time you are walking the grey path in an Ikea store..
At the moment you buy car makers make an electric car and as an owner you have to provide the electricity.
There is already a solution to your problem that Tesla realised this chicken and egg issue with electic cars and so have invested in the charging stations and electricty generation in California with Solar feilds. They make local electricty and you don't have to pay for the electricity when you charge at their stations. So if these guys in California can do this, it will be inevitable that other Big car makers will, Germany is committed to getting more renewable energy, so it would be nieve to think that BMW/VW/Merc etc won't want to produce the power that you put into their cars.
If you can have something that does a 1/4 mile in 12.4, a range of 300miles, 400NM and you don't pay for the fuel all you have to pay for is the tyres
Have a look at this car review before you bury your head in the sand...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kCG-WqpVnI
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