RE: Dual-clutch Clio RS: the defence
Discussion
sad61t said:
The alpha-PHers want a manual, but I'm not an alpha, more an epsilon and therefore welcome the coming of the efficient auto box. After several missed changes from third to second and subsequent coasting around the corner, and needing two arms to shove the MINI's (BMW: weighted; IMO: hideously baulky) manual box into reverse I ticked the auto option plus paddles on my current MINI. I love it, and there is some (different) skill in pre-empting the auto's calculations for pulling out of a junction, overtaking and round-a-corner-up-a-hill scenarios where the AI lags by a half-second or so.
But then, as an epsilon-male, I've little interest in buying a 200bhp hatch anyway; there's little point when 95% of my journeys are within urban limits. It will be an interesting year watching if Renault's VW-u-like gamble pays off, or if their sales were based on the manual USP (unique selling point) and now they have gone down the DCT route their customers will think they may as well buy into the German autobahnstormer mythos.
So your personal preference is the reason why the rest of us shouldn't have the choice of opting for a manual, is it?But then, as an epsilon-male, I've little interest in buying a 200bhp hatch anyway; there's little point when 95% of my journeys are within urban limits. It will be an interesting year watching if Renault's VW-u-like gamble pays off, or if their sales were based on the manual USP (unique selling point) and now they have gone down the DCT route their customers will think they may as well buy into the German autobahnstormer mythos.
I disagree with everything you've said, but that's my personal preference. Problem is, it seems that despite what capitalism claims to trumpet, we're heading into a performance market with about as many choices as a Soviet supermarket with regard to engines and transmission.
I don't buy the 'it's what people want' angle either. To test this hypothesis, I took a walk around my neighbourhood this weekend en route to the shops, making a point of subtly looking through the windows of all the cars to see what gearbox they had. It's a moderately well-off middle-class area and most of the cars were bought within the last eight years or so.
I reckon about 90% were three-pedal manuals, 9% were autos (and they were the kind of big luxury saloon that isn't available with anything else), and 1% were DSGs - ie, there was a solitary Porsche 991.
As usual, the company decides what it's going to do, the marketing department tells the people that 'this is what people want these days' without actually asking them, and gradually choice is withdrawn.
I wouldn't touch a DSG with a 10-ft bargepole on the secondhand market. They all look like bankruptcy on wheels.
Triumph Man said:
Krikkit said:
Triumph Man said:
Krikkit said:
Triumph Man said:
Well done, if you are joking. If you aren't, is your left arm severely withered?
To the person who explains they want "speed", I seem to be able to snick a pretty dodgy Passat cable gearbox about pretty effectively, a gearbox which is never particularly precise. I find helping the clutch and gearbox by rev matching help.
Most of what he says is tosh, but getting a Mini into reverse isn't a very nice action. Then again, none of the controls are very nice.To the person who explains they want "speed", I seem to be able to snick a pretty dodgy Passat cable gearbox about pretty effectively, a gearbox which is never particularly precise. I find helping the clutch and gearbox by rev matching help.
In my opinion Renault and Honda both chasing the same segment as the Golf GTI is a mistake.
Volkswagen are very good at being Volkswagen.
They could differentiate their product by hanging onto their slightly more hardcore appeal.
Not offering a spanish model seems like they are majorly misunderstanding their existing customer base.
Volkswagen are very good at being Volkswagen.
They could differentiate their product by hanging onto their slightly more hardcore appeal.
Not offering a spanish model seems like they are majorly misunderstanding their existing customer base.
Edited by Horse Pop on Monday 4th February 12:07
sw1000xg said:
The sooner manual goes away the better!
Heel'n'toe. Is that kiddie talk or something.
Only reason I don't want to buy a new Renault is it has NO auto/semi option!
Don't care about this rubbish about manual changes. I want SPEED, performance, and I don't want a slow clumsy manual getting in the way of the driving I love to do!
35 posts of trolling, stomp stomp stomp.Heel'n'toe. Is that kiddie talk or something.
Only reason I don't want to buy a new Renault is it has NO auto/semi option!
Don't care about this rubbish about manual changes. I want SPEED, performance, and I don't want a slow clumsy manual getting in the way of the driving I love to do!
I can see benefits to both forms of shifting, Our Mercedes is good fun flapping it's paddles, I assume when it doesn't go down a gear it's looking after the engine for me ha ha.
I right on the fence with this one, not too bothered with manual or a decent (and that's important) flappy paddle box.
Anyone know if the box is any good on this new Clio lol
I've driven a 172 Cup and a 182, both of which were a hoot. I've also driven a variety of "flappy paddle gearbox" cars and personally, I really don't like them.
The first I drove was a MKV Golf R32. The constant "blipping" on the down change got on my nerves after about 10 minutes. Sure it sounds good when you're "on it", but not when you're pulling into, say, a petrol station. It makes you look like a prat.
Then I drove a couple of BMW M3's with the DCT box. This was much more impressive (the technology seemed a lot better than that in the Golf). It was also quick, blatting through the gears seamlessly. However, personally speaking I found it all a bit, well boring. Plant your foot, hold the steering wheel and watch the needle climb. That was about it. You could hear the gears changing (couldn't feel them, apart from in the most harsh setting) and that was that.
I know that you can change the gears yourself with the paddles, but after a while I thought "what's the point, the computer can do it quicker than me, I might as well just leave it to do it's thing".
I know auto boxes are the way of the future, I know that they're quicker, more fuel efficient, etc. But I just don't find them as engaging. Technology has brought us a lot of good things (ABS, traction control, airbags, etc), but removing a function of driving (i.e. changing gear yourself) ruins it for me. Next we'll have cars that steer themselves!
The first I drove was a MKV Golf R32. The constant "blipping" on the down change got on my nerves after about 10 minutes. Sure it sounds good when you're "on it", but not when you're pulling into, say, a petrol station. It makes you look like a prat.
Then I drove a couple of BMW M3's with the DCT box. This was much more impressive (the technology seemed a lot better than that in the Golf). It was also quick, blatting through the gears seamlessly. However, personally speaking I found it all a bit, well boring. Plant your foot, hold the steering wheel and watch the needle climb. That was about it. You could hear the gears changing (couldn't feel them, apart from in the most harsh setting) and that was that.
I know that you can change the gears yourself with the paddles, but after a while I thought "what's the point, the computer can do it quicker than me, I might as well just leave it to do it's thing".
I know auto boxes are the way of the future, I know that they're quicker, more fuel efficient, etc. But I just don't find them as engaging. Technology has brought us a lot of good things (ABS, traction control, airbags, etc), but removing a function of driving (i.e. changing gear yourself) ruins it for me. Next we'll have cars that steer themselves!
GTiFrank said:
I don't understand why those of us that want and buy manual cars are the "diehards" and in the minority here. Surly your average PHer IS the target audience for this car, and I would bet more than 2/3rds of us would spec a Clio RS with a manual box given the choice!
You could argue a hot hatch is by definition open to a wider audience. Don't get me wrong, I think they're great, but compared to a full on sports car like a Caterham or an Elise hot hatches have to offer concessions for practicality and affordability. Using a manual 'box would push the fuel consumption and CO2 figures up, while introducing a specific manual gearbox for the RS (if, say, the lesser models aren't up to the torque) would up the production cost.The beauty of a hot hatch is that it doesn't ask you to make the compromises that a conventional sports car would do. Buyers tend to have at least one eye on practicality and cost, so I can imagine plenty of them would take a few tenths of the 0-60 time and a lower tax bracket over a manual gearbox. Shame.
Doubt it is really only is the cost of designing two gearbox versions. Think it is blasted EU overregulation again, CO2 targets and fleet average and all that. Much easier faking good results in the fuel economy test with a double clutch box.
http://www.jato.com/PressReleases/Europe%20cleanin...
http://www.jato.com/PressReleases/Europe%20cleanin...
GTiFrank said:
I don't understand why those of us that want and buy manual cars are the "diehards" and in the minority here. Surly your average PHer IS the target audience for this car, and I would bet more than 2/3rds of us would spec a Clio RS with a manual box given the choice!
Bizarrely, 'diehards' racing fans want the auto as that's what actual racing cars have. There are diehard manual lovers and then there are diehard lovers of motorsport and getting quickly from point A to point B.
It's silly to say manual lovers are the 'purists'. They're not.
The normal Clio looks good in flesh,not anymore like a cheap little hatchback but like a premium hatch,Citroen DS3 like inside and out,much better than a Mini IMO or Audi A1.
The R.S with the new box should drive great so lets save our judgement when someone drives one or actually sees one in flesh to realize how good it looks.
The R.S with the new box should drive great so lets save our judgement when someone drives one or actually sees one in flesh to realize how good it looks.
Shame... too big, too complicated, too expensive, too heavy, too many doors.
Why does Renault feel the need to replace the Clio with what appears to be a Megane?
And why does the new Clio need a brand new expensive manual gearbox developed especially for it? Surely Renault has a perfectly OK existing manual gearbox that could fitted from something else (Megane/Laguna/old clio?) with a few tweaked gear ratios / final drive?
I can't see how a DCT box can be cheaper than a manual? why can't a manual box be a no cost option? - would it really cost that much to give us a choice given that clutches/manual gearboxes are a pretty well understood tech nowadays?
Doesn't make sense to me - and telling customers what they want rarely seems to work out (even if you are right!).
I guess new car buyers want different things than used car buyers, but I think Renault have jumped the gun and gone too early on this, underestimating how much of a turn off a 5dr automatic hot hatch is to petrolhead enthusiasts like us.
Having the 'hardest' / fastest small hot hatch gave Renault a lot of kudos that reflected across it's whole brand, much like Peugeot with the 205 GTI in the nineties - it gave a sporting credability. I fear Renault will go the way of Peugeot in the noughties (eg. crap 206/7 GTI etc) if they are not careful.
Why does Renault feel the need to replace the Clio with what appears to be a Megane?
And why does the new Clio need a brand new expensive manual gearbox developed especially for it? Surely Renault has a perfectly OK existing manual gearbox that could fitted from something else (Megane/Laguna/old clio?) with a few tweaked gear ratios / final drive?
I can't see how a DCT box can be cheaper than a manual? why can't a manual box be a no cost option? - would it really cost that much to give us a choice given that clutches/manual gearboxes are a pretty well understood tech nowadays?
Doesn't make sense to me - and telling customers what they want rarely seems to work out (even if you are right!).
I guess new car buyers want different things than used car buyers, but I think Renault have jumped the gun and gone too early on this, underestimating how much of a turn off a 5dr automatic hot hatch is to petrolhead enthusiasts like us.
Having the 'hardest' / fastest small hot hatch gave Renault a lot of kudos that reflected across it's whole brand, much like Peugeot with the 205 GTI in the nineties - it gave a sporting credability. I fear Renault will go the way of Peugeot in the noughties (eg. crap 206/7 GTI etc) if they are not careful.
How depressing. Cannot understand why they dont offer the choice.
After some numpty ploughed into the back of my car and wrote it off, I had a brand new m3 frozen edition thing to drive around in for 7 weeks. 443 brake hardcore version but with DCT. Have to say I just got bored with it, plant foot, pull lever, 100 mph. Zero effort. Anyone can drive it.
From now on I'm going to go oldschool for some heavy clutch, obstructive gearbox-based fun that actually requires some effort and maybe even an element of skill to drive properly.
Bah.
After some numpty ploughed into the back of my car and wrote it off, I had a brand new m3 frozen edition thing to drive around in for 7 weeks. 443 brake hardcore version but with DCT. Have to say I just got bored with it, plant foot, pull lever, 100 mph. Zero effort. Anyone can drive it.
From now on I'm going to go oldschool for some heavy clutch, obstructive gearbox-based fun that actually requires some effort and maybe even an element of skill to drive properly.
Bah.
I think people are too quick to compare it to the likes of the DSG systems found in various VAG models. Let's all wait until people actually get to drive it before making minds up - Renaultsport simply do not make boring cars.
Out of interest, are Ferraris, Lambos, McLarens etc boring without manual boxes?
Out of interest, are Ferraris, Lambos, McLarens etc boring without manual boxes?
Kolbenkopp said:
Doubt it is really only is the cost of designing two gearbox versions. Think it is blasted EU overregulation again, CO2 targets and fleet average and all that. Much easier faking good results in the fuel economy test with a double clutch box.
http://www.jato.com/PressReleases/Europe%20cleanin...
Chaps,http://www.jato.com/PressReleases/Europe%20cleanin...
Same engine is available with a manual gearbox in the Juke...
bleunos said:
Why does Renault feel the need to replace the Clio with what appears to be a Megane?
I suspect it's because the Megane is now the size of the Laguna, to the point where they've stopped making the Laguna, and the Twingo has steped in to take the place of the Clio.I just hope they don't subject the RenaultSport Twingo to a DCT, otherwise they really will have made a mess of it.
BS75 said:
The first two paragraphs of the article shows exactly why Renault's performance in the UK has become so dismal: they don't give two s
ts what UK customers want.
If they gave the slightest damn they'd be selling cars instead of withdrawing models and closing dealerships.
I'm sure the paddle-shift method IS faster but given Renault's completely hit-and-miss reliability and mentally bad residuals, if they make the car too playstation-like they'll kill the only remaining reason to buy something from RenaultSport: the fact they're still (sort of) proper, fun driver's cars (when they work).
Well said that man, covers the real issue here.ts what UK customers want. If they gave the slightest damn they'd be selling cars instead of withdrawing models and closing dealerships.
I'm sure the paddle-shift method IS faster but given Renault's completely hit-and-miss reliability and mentally bad residuals, if they make the car too playstation-like they'll kill the only remaining reason to buy something from RenaultSport: the fact they're still (sort of) proper, fun driver's cars (when they work).
Krikkit said:
Triumph Man said:
Krikkit said:
Triumph Man said:
Krikkit said:
Triumph Man said:
Well done, if you are joking. If you aren't, is your left arm severely withered?
To the person who explains they want "speed", I seem to be able to snick a pretty dodgy Passat cable gearbox about pretty effectively, a gearbox which is never particularly precise. I find helping the clutch and gearbox by rev matching help.
Most of what he says is tosh, but getting a Mini into reverse isn't a very nice action. Then again, none of the controls are very nice.To the person who explains they want "speed", I seem to be able to snick a pretty dodgy Passat cable gearbox about pretty effectively, a gearbox which is never particularly precise. I find helping the clutch and gearbox by rev matching help.
Anyway, back on topic, I think that new Clio looks offensively ugly, and it's a shame they can't offer a manual transmission as an option.
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