RE: Dual-clutch Clio RS: the defence

[EDLT]

Twincam16 said:

cvega said:

setting the whole "MANUAL IS BETTER! DSG IS BETTER!" nonsensical argument, how much does a replacement dual clutch actually cost? and how long do they last? DSG has been on the market a while.

Well, given that a DCT box has two clutches whilst a conventional manual only has one, that's an extra thing to go wrong and replace right there and then.

But, as I mentioned above, they are a different type of clutch and should last longer. Especially as DSGs don't allow certain experts to cadence clutch in an attempt to increase top speed.

[CarCluster]

The proof will be when we can actually drive it - not long now... I have had a few RS's then an auto-box (not in a PH-oriented car) and now I am over the moon that the new clio will provide the best of both worlds.For this kind of prices there are very few auto cars with a sporting brief, may be a gamble but also brave to being going that way. And as long as they don't go under in the UK, I'd like to think I may be in the market for one of these 200's in a year or so.

[Twincam16]

EDLT said:

Twincam16 said:

cvega said:

setting the whole "MANUAL IS BETTER! DSG IS BETTER!" nonsensical argument, how much does a replacement dual clutch actually cost? and how long do they last? DSG has been on the market a while.

Well, given that a DCT box has two clutches whilst a conventional manual only has one, that's an extra thing to go wrong and replace right there and then.

But, as I mentioned above, they are a different type of clutch and should last longer. Especially as DSGs don't allow certain experts to cadence clutch in an attempt to increase top speed.

An eleven-year-old joke. Hilarious.

Point is, the system is far more complex. Fewer mechanics will be able to repair it, fewer manufacturers will make replacement parts, and as a result any car with DCT problems will be rendered a write-off far earlier in its life and at a much higher value than a car with a conventional manual or auto.

IMO it's misguided EU policy that's forcing all this. In certain conditions a DCT is more economical than a conventional manual. However, given that increasing numbers of Europeans are skint I'd far rather they paved the way for cars that were just lighter, simpler, more aerodynamic and far easier to fix as a long-term ownership prospect to suit the prevailing economic climate than make cars heavier, more complicated, more expensive and more difficult to repair.

I suspect that Dacia will succeed because of this, and others will have to take note. I suspect many more Sanderos and Dusters will outlast DCT Renaults, even though they share many of their underpinnings.

[enroz]

I think this may surprise a lot of people when the first drives come in from the motoring press.

With Renaultsport, it's about raising the bar every time, and i'm sure the new Clio will not disappoint and will again set new standards for the hot hatch world, even with the DSG devil and ulgy duckling looks.

If you are looking for the purest drive, may I suggest Dacia? They could provide you with a manual box without power steering, ABS or indeed anything to distract you from your pursuit of driving nirvana.

Please butter my muffin..

[Twincam16]

enroz said:

I think this may surprise a lot of people when the first drives come in from the motoring press.

With Renaultsport, it's about raising the bar every time, and i'm sure the new Clio will not disappoint and will again set new standards for the hot hatch world, even with the DSG devil and ulgy duckling looks.

If you are looking for the purest drive, may I suggest Dacia? They could provide you with a manual box without power steering, ABS or indeed anything to distract you from your pursuit of driving nirvana.

Please butter my muffin..

I think what's annoying is the way you can have the engine coupled to a perfectly acceptable manual transmission in a Juke, and yet Renault won't contemplate installing it in the Clio even as an option. It's not like the car's been designed specifically around the transmission, they're just not giving anyone the choice.

As for Dacia - I'd love them to do a hot hatch, actually.

[crispyshark]

Himself said:

BS75 said:

The first two paragraphs of the article shows exactly why Renault's performance in the UK has become so dismal: they don't give two sts what UK customers want.

I'd be prepared to put money on Renault gaining more customers than they lose.

Edited by Himself on Monday 4th February 13:37

Which is exactly Renault's point of doing it and why it's clearly upset so many PH'ers....the only thing they are considering is numbers they can sell (which is fair enough if you were a manufacturer who wants to make profit).

It would probably be cost inefficient but why don't they follow BMW's lead like they did with the manual M5 (albiet only released in the US) and perhaps do a special run of the Clios with manual for the UK? I'm sure they would sell.

[EDLT]

Twincam16 said:

EDLT said:

Twincam16 said:

cvega said:

setting the whole "MANUAL IS BETTER! DSG IS BETTER!" nonsensical argument, how much does a replacement dual clutch actually cost? and how long do they last? DSG has been on the market a while.

Well, given that a DCT box has two clutches whilst a conventional manual only has one, that's an extra thing to go wrong and replace right there and then.

But, as I mentioned above, they are a different type of clutch and should last longer. Especially as DSGs don't allow certain experts to cadence clutch in an attempt to increase top speed.

An eleven-year-old joke. Hilarious.

Point is, the system is far more complex. Fewer mechanics will be able to repair it, fewer manufacturers will make replacement parts, and as a result any car with DCT problems will be rendered a write-off far earlier in its life and at a much higher value than a car with a conventional manual or auto.

I'll stop making you joke when you stop trying to pass off nonsense like the above as fact. Only mechanics that don't know what they are doing will not be able to fix a DSG, luckily there are training courses which are used by most reputable garages. Hardly anyone makes replacement "simple" clutches, most are bought from the same supplier that the manufacturer uses. DSGs go for around £800 on ebay, roughly the same as a conventional auto. Clutches + DMFs aren't exactly cheap either.

[Chris71]

GTiFrank said:

Chris71 said:

GTiFrank said:

I don't understand why those of us that want and buy manual cars are the "diehards" and in the minority here. Surly your average PHer IS the target audience for this car, and I would bet more than 2/3rds of us would spec a Clio RS with a manual box given the choice!

You could argue a hot hatch is by definition open to a wider audience. Don't get me wrong, I think they're great, but compared to a full on sports car like a Caterham or an Elise hot hatches have to offer concessions for practicality and affordability. Using a manual 'box would push the fuel consumption and CO2 figures up, while introducing a specific manual gearbox for the RS (if, say, the lesser models aren't up to the torque) would up the production cost.

The beauty of a hot hatch is that it doesn't ask you to make the compromises that a conventional sports car would do. Buyers tend to have at least one eye on practicality and cost, so I can imagine plenty of them would take a few tenths of the 0-60 time and a lower tax bracket over a manual gearbox. Shame.

I fear you may be correct in those assumptions for the hot hatch market in general. However I think (or would like to think) that RS customers choose a RS because of the additional driver involvement that they offer over VAG products. RS models were never that practical those that were more concerned with practicality went out and bought a Golf GTi.

I think the main concern here is that this new Clio is asking you to compromise.

True. In an ideal world maybe they could have dual clutch 'Clio STs' (Gordinis maybe) and leave the RS for the purists, but there are any number of reasons why that would be too expensive.

A bigger concern for me is the turbo. I know there are some brilliant turbo engines out there these days, but you really notice the extra fizz of a good naturally aspirated engine now they're in such short supply. Get into something like a Swift Sport or the outgoing RS Clio and there's an immediacy to the throttle response that you don't get in a Polo GTi or even the hallowed M135i.

[EDLT]

Don't the Swift Sport and RS Clio both have drive by wire throttles? Driving purists told me that these are rubbish and nobody will be able to fix them if they go wrong.

[Chrisw666]

Just a thought here, it may have been covered.

The 1st Gen RS Clio 172 was launched filled with toys, and then backed up by a Cup chassis option and a Full lightweight Cup version.

Are Renault simply stirring up attention for the new Clio by doing the DCT box only thing, with the knowledge that a more focussed, harder, lighter and manual equipped car will be following the launch model by 6 months?

[TomTVR500]

Chrisw666 said:

Just a thought here, it may have been covered.

The 1st Gen RS Clio 172 was launched filled with toys, and then backed up by a Cup chassis option and a Full lightweight Cup version.

Are Renault simply stirring up attention for the new Clio by doing the DCT box only thing, with the knowledge that a more focussed, harder, lighter and manual equipped car will be following the launch model by 6 months?

Lets hope you are right!!

[sjg]

Twincam16 said:

Point is, the system is far more complex. Fewer mechanics will be able to repair it, fewer manufacturers will make replacement parts, and as a result any car with DCT problems will be rendered a write-off far earlier in its life and at a much higher value than a car with a conventional manual or auto.

Just like fuel injection, ECUs, ABS, airbags, and just about every other automotive development of the last 30+ years then.

Mechanics' skills develop in line with the cars that people buy and drive.

[Gary C]

"Racing cars use paddle-shift gearboxes. It's faster,"

So fking what !!!!

I dont care if its faster.

[Krikkit]

sjg said:

Twincam16 said:

Point is, the system is far more complex. Fewer mechanics will be able to repair it, fewer manufacturers will make replacement parts, and as a result any car with DCT problems will be rendered a write-off far earlier in its life and at a much higher value than a car with a conventional manual or auto.

Just like fuel injection, ECUs, ABS, airbags, and just about every other automotive development of the last 30+ years then.

Mechanics' skills develop in line with the cars that people buy and drive.

Agreed, up to a point. Look at a conventional automatic, rather than a simple manual. Most garages won't touch an auto box when it goes wrong - they'll take it out and send it off to a specialist/replace it (unless the problem is very simple of course). The same will happen with double-clutch boxes too - not many places will want to open up a DSG box for a clutch replacement, or an ECM replacement, it'll get sent away.

[Gary C]

Strange comment

"A manual option would make the car more expensive"

?

DCT cheaper than a simple 5/6 speed manual ? or is it economy of scale ?

[Gary C]

Penneth said:

Twincam16 said:

I suspect it's because the Megane is now the size of the Laguna, to the point where they've stopped making the Laguna, and the Twingo has steped in to take the place of the Clio.

I just hope they don't subject the RenaultSport Twingo to a DCT, otherwise they really will have made a mess of it.

Way off - Laguna only stopped being sold in the UK, still being made for Europe.

Looking at sizes and segments, they haven't changed in god knows how long...

A - Twingo, VW Up, Fiat 500
B - Polo, Clio, Corsa
C - Megane, Golf, Astra
D - Laguna, Passat etc

Our new Polo is the size of an original Golf, the new Clio is much bigger than the 2003 model I had. The segments may have remained together, but the actual cars have got bigger.

[excel monkey]

Twincam16 said:

I think what's annoying is the way you can have the engine coupled to a perfectly acceptable manual transmission in a Juke, and yet Renault won't contemplate installing it in the Clio even as an option. It's not like the car's been designed specifically around the transmission, they're just not giving anyone the choice.

You do understand that "choice" doesn't come for free, I presume? Two separate transmissions would mean less volume discount on transmission components and more training costs for assembly line workers.

Renault are gambling that the loss of potential sales to manual transmission diehards will be offset by lower overall manufacturing costs. I think there are a lot of Renaultsport fanboys out there who will moan about the EDC 'box but still buy the car anyway.

[EDLT]

Krikkit said:

sjg said:

Twincam16 said:

Point is, the system is far more complex. Fewer mechanics will be able to repair it, fewer manufacturers will make replacement parts, and as a result any car with DCT problems will be rendered a write-off far earlier in its life and at a much higher value than a car with a conventional manual or auto.

Just like fuel injection, ECUs, ABS, airbags, and just about every other automotive development of the last 30+ years then.

Mechanics' skills develop in line with the cars that people buy and drive.

Agreed, up to a point. Look at a conventional automatic, rather than a simple manual. Most garages won't touch an auto box when it goes wrong - they'll take it out and send it off to a specialist/replace it (unless the problem is very simple of course). The same will happen with double-clutch boxes too - not many places will want to open up a DSG box for a clutch replacement, or an ECM replacement, it'll get sent away.

They don't rebuild starters, alternators or turbos either. It is usually replaced with an exchanged recon part because it's cheaper.

[2000 GTV]

Horrific dash and no temp gauge.

[A Scotsman]

2000 GTV said:

Horrific dash and no temp gauge.

I wonder if there's a business in making after market dashboards?