RE: Ringside Seat: winter tyred
Discussion
Birzzles said:
Interesting to know if BMW are ok on winter tyres. My experience with 2mm of snow in a 520 and with some snow or indeed anything slightly slippy in my 320 means that i wouldnt risk having both cars RWD. I suspect winter tyres would still not give a BMW the traction of a front wheel drive focus? As a result my next car has to be FWD or 4WD to go with my RWD BMW, which has to stay indoors if it is cold out.
Completely wrong assumption. ANY car will get around fine all winter if you fit winter tyres. If you have a FWD car you can get away with just the fronts (our works vans do every year) if RWD you will need them all round. A 400BHP RWD BMW and traction control on winters is just great fun!Birzzles said:
Interesting to know if BMW are ok on winter tyres. My experience with 2mm of snow in a 520 and with some snow or indeed anything slightly slippy in my 320 means that i wouldnt risk having both cars RWD. I suspect winter tyres would still not give a BMW the traction of a front wheel drive focus? As a result my next car has to be FWD or 4WD to go with my RWD BMW, which has to stay indoors if it is cold out.
You will get around fine until you run out of ground clearance and embarrass many SUVs running ridiculously wide low profile rubber along the way.We often hear the doesn't really snow in the UK, or rarely gets below 7oC arguments.
Many probably know that there are many parts of Scotland where it regularly drops a foot of snow in the winter, but we don't all hear about it, because it isn't happening in England.
However, the fact is even away from Scotland, the average winter temperature is quite a bit lower than people appreciate, even in the South. The majority of the UK spends many months averaging below 7oC.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_the_United...
"In England the average annual temperature varies from 8.5 °C (47.3 °F) in the north to 11 °C (51.8 °F) in the south, but over the higher ground this can be several degrees lower.[22]"
Note that that is annual, not just the winter.
"For Winter 2011/2012 the UK mean temperature for the winter was 4.5 °C, much *milder* than the last three winters, and comparable with several other mild winters since 2000"
The average UK winter temperature is between 3 and 4 degrees. That's not Scotland, that's the whole UK.
Many probably know that there are many parts of Scotland where it regularly drops a foot of snow in the winter, but we don't all hear about it, because it isn't happening in England.
However, the fact is even away from Scotland, the average winter temperature is quite a bit lower than people appreciate, even in the South. The majority of the UK spends many months averaging below 7oC.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_the_United...
"In England the average annual temperature varies from 8.5 °C (47.3 °F) in the north to 11 °C (51.8 °F) in the south, but over the higher ground this can be several degrees lower.[22]"
Note that that is annual, not just the winter.
"For Winter 2011/2012 the UK mean temperature for the winter was 4.5 °C, much *milder* than the last three winters, and comparable with several other mild winters since 2000"
The average UK winter temperature is between 3 and 4 degrees. That's not Scotland, that's the whole UK.
I don't expect this opinion to go down well in the cult of PH, but perhaps manufacturers should be encouraged to fit a halfway house tyre as OE (presumably there's some kind of hybrid tyres kicking around)? That way new cars could be running something safer for all round use than they have currently.
I'm thinking of the volume models here - the ones that are typically bought by someone who just wants to get around. Maybe sport/high end derivatives could have a NCO 'performance' tyre?
I'm thinking of the volume models here - the ones that are typically bought by someone who just wants to get around. Maybe sport/high end derivatives could have a NCO 'performance' tyre?
RicksAlfas said:
Birzzles said:
Interesting to know if BMW are ok on winter tyres. My experience with 2mm of snow in a 520 and with some snow or indeed anything slightly slippy in my 320 means that i wouldnt risk having both cars RWD. I suspect winter tyres would still not give a BMW the traction of a front wheel drive focus? As a result my next car has to be FWD or 4WD to go with my RWD BMW, which has to stay indoors if it is cold out.
You will get around fine until you run out of ground clearance and embarrass many SUVs running ridiculously wide low profile rubber along the way.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STaximkaQxo
My M3 has literally been the snow king.
Greg 172 said:
I don't expect this opinion to go down well in the cult of PH, but perhaps manufacturers should be encouraged to fit a halfway house tyre as OE (presumably there's some kind of hybrid tyres kicking around)? That way new cars could be running something safer for all round use than they have currently.
I'm thinking of the volume models here - the ones that are typically bought by someone who just wants to get around. Maybe sport/high end derivatives could have a NCO 'performance' tyre?
I think that's a very valid point actually.I'm thinking of the volume models here - the ones that are typically bought by someone who just wants to get around. Maybe sport/high end derivatives could have a NCO 'performance' tyre?
Many new cars of all kinds have a combination of fat low profile rubber and/or economy saving energy tyres which are like slicks with a few grooves in them. Something like an all season Goodyear Vector or the Vredestein Quatrac would probably be much more suitable. Likewise the Uniroyal Rail Experts have a much more aggressive tread pattern than a Michelin Energy and make a noticeable difference when there is snow on the ground.
ALH90 said:
Hellbound said:
Given where we live, we should have M&S all weather tyres for most of the year.
I read on here not long ago that Asda were supplying tyres, now M&S? Judging by the average quality of rubber I see on cars around my way a Tesco Value offering would do well 
M&S marking is useless, it basically states the tread pattern must have 25% void, nothing else. The mountain and snowflake symbol is on all the modern all season tyres and slightly more relevant.
I've used winter tyres for the past three years now, and will continue to use them. But I don't buy into the whole 7 degrees thing.
In my opinion, the only time when my Dunlop Winter Sports are better than my Goodyear Eagle F1s is in snow and ice.
All other conditions (including cold/wet/dry), the summer tyres are better.
However, the winters are superb on snow and ice. My car is 4wd so that helps a lot obviously, but you can be crazily heavy with the throttle and still move.
So even though the winters aren't as good as the summers most of the time (I've had maybe a week of snow/ice total so far this winter) I'll continue to use them because...
They're not that much worse in normal conditions - I can still drive quicker than I probably should on public roads without losing grip, and they're probably better than mid range summer tyres.
They're superb in snow and ice.
It doesn't really cost me anything as I have 2 sets of wheels, and I'm not wearing out my summers while the winters are on. Selling the winter wheels and tyres from my previous car also showed that they have excellent resale value!
In my opinion, the only time when my Dunlop Winter Sports are better than my Goodyear Eagle F1s is in snow and ice.
All other conditions (including cold/wet/dry), the summer tyres are better.
However, the winters are superb on snow and ice. My car is 4wd so that helps a lot obviously, but you can be crazily heavy with the throttle and still move.
So even though the winters aren't as good as the summers most of the time (I've had maybe a week of snow/ice total so far this winter) I'll continue to use them because...
They're not that much worse in normal conditions - I can still drive quicker than I probably should on public roads without losing grip, and they're probably better than mid range summer tyres.
They're superb in snow and ice.
It doesn't really cost me anything as I have 2 sets of wheels, and I'm not wearing out my summers while the winters are on. Selling the winter wheels and tyres from my previous car also showed that they have excellent resale value!
The main vote against winter tyres seems to come from people who have no experience of them, but feel that their regular tyres are fine. From my years in Germany I know what difference winter tyres make, so I still change mine over come November, and put the summers back on in March. I keep 2 sets of wheels, so changeovers take me 30 mins on the drive.
My brother runs his 996 all year, and currently has Dunlop winter tyres on there when he was fed up of being immobile with his summer tyres on (he's somewhere on mainland Europe).
What I will add is that there are bad winter tyres, and good ones. Goodyear Ultragrips are amazing in the snow & cold, my current Toyo SnowProx's are ok... the cheaper you go, the lower your expectations should be.
My brother runs his 996 all year, and currently has Dunlop winter tyres on there when he was fed up of being immobile with his summer tyres on (he's somewhere on mainland Europe).
What I will add is that there are bad winter tyres, and good ones. Goodyear Ultragrips are amazing in the snow & cold, my current Toyo SnowProx's are ok... the cheaper you go, the lower your expectations should be.
alock said:
Another winter where I've managed just fine on my summer tyre equipped S2000. Commuted everyday from Winchester to Basingstoke without any issues. The only disruption to my routine was that on the worst day of snow I chose to stick to the main trunk roads instead of the country lanes.
Some people have a lifestyle where they feel they need winter tyres. Others don't.
You obviously have a fine sense of the handling of you veichle in wintery conditions Some people have a lifestyle where they feel they need winter tyres. Others don't.
I've run on winter tyres (£100 of continental part worn off eBay) the last 3 seasons just to make life easier when conditions get really 'interesting'! But the old bus got on fine with a set of Pirelli P7's summers tyres on; has plenty to do with driving style when to be cautious and when to give it the beans!
Im currently in Finland, and its really snowing hard, temp is about -6. My taxi from work this evening was a E Class Merc and, even though there was compacted snow in the car parks, and the motorways were down to 2 lanes instead of the usual 3, we made it without any issue. I have not seen anyone stuck or failing to get about.
The average speed was 60km/hr instead of the usual 90 - 100
im defiantly investing in a set of cheap winter tyres .. or if I can get them, All Terrains for the 406 shed.
The average speed was 60km/hr instead of the usual 90 - 100
im defiantly investing in a set of cheap winter tyres .. or if I can get them, All Terrains for the 406 shed.
Edited by JVaughan on Friday 8th February 16:31
Im have had 6 years in two 330D coupe's, and am about to order my 3rd; I live in a reasonably hilly area of Nottinghamshire, and the snow has not stopped me going anywhere, and I just use the standard tyres specified for the car.
Of course if I lived in Germany where they have a lot of snow it would be diffenrent!! Horses for courses!!
Of course if I lived in Germany where they have a lot of snow it would be diffenrent!! Horses for courses!!
RDMcG said:
Having lived in Canada for many years, I have used them on every car.
They do work.
They are optimized for temps of less than -7c,and have a chemical composition to wear and flex appropriately for cold,not just snow. Will wear quickly if you keep them on through warm conditions. All Seasons are a compromise and fine for those areas that get rare light snowfalls.
The biggest mistake here is where people get a 4x4 and assume that this will magically create grip in snow,ignoring its greater weight.I keep a cheaper set of rims for my Cayenne, and as is common here,keep the unused rims stored at the tire dealer.
Naturally,no aid will cure poor driving and running too fast for the conditions. At the beginning of every winter here, the first big storm (which is late this year but happening right now),still results in many accidents.
Before someone misquotes you, I think you meant to have said: "They are optimised for temps of less then 7c, NOT -7c ... Right ? They do work.
They are optimized for temps of less than -7c,and have a chemical composition to wear and flex appropriately for cold,not just snow. Will wear quickly if you keep them on through warm conditions. All Seasons are a compromise and fine for those areas that get rare light snowfalls.
The biggest mistake here is where people get a 4x4 and assume that this will magically create grip in snow,ignoring its greater weight.I keep a cheaper set of rims for my Cayenne, and as is common here,keep the unused rims stored at the tire dealer.
Naturally,no aid will cure poor driving and running too fast for the conditions. At the beginning of every winter here, the first big storm (which is late this year but happening right now),still results in many accidents.
Edited by MattCSLnut on Friday 8th February 18:16
Autocar has a good vid of a 2wd Skoda Yeti on winters vs the 4wd version on summers. The real eye-opener is the stopping distances, even from only 30 mph - several car lengths.
Porsche did something similar with a pair of Panameras, with much the same result.
A while back an interview with a tyre company exec brought up the interesting comment that, these days, "normal" tyres can be biased towards warm/dry handling because so many markets either use winters or do not have such bad weather.
On the winter temperature question, even in the south it is pretty unlikely to be above 7 degC except for a few hours through the middle of the day; between dusk and dawn it is usually only a few degrees above zero, if not actually freezing. That is when the majority of journeys are made, especially on local roads which are less likely to be swept or gritted. I run mine from Dec through to Easter, at least, every year.
Porsche did something similar with a pair of Panameras, with much the same result.
A while back an interview with a tyre company exec brought up the interesting comment that, these days, "normal" tyres can be biased towards warm/dry handling because so many markets either use winters or do not have such bad weather.
On the winter temperature question, even in the south it is pretty unlikely to be above 7 degC except for a few hours through the middle of the day; between dusk and dawn it is usually only a few degrees above zero, if not actually freezing. That is when the majority of journeys are made, especially on local roads which are less likely to be swept or gritted. I run mine from Dec through to Easter, at least, every year.
I agree about winter tyres. My R/Rover has 18" summer tyres and is all but useless in the snow. 16" winters coming...
20 or 30 years ago, when there wasn't anything like winter tyres, we all managed very well in the snow. Why? Because most cars were on 155 section tyres, 185 at the most, apart from what seemed humungous tyres fitted to the XJ6 at 205 section. Narrow tyres meant the tyres of almost any type bit in to the snow and got you there.
Look at the WRC cars in Rally Sweden etc - very narrow tyres, albeit studded...
20 or 30 years ago, when there wasn't anything like winter tyres, we all managed very well in the snow. Why? Because most cars were on 155 section tyres, 185 at the most, apart from what seemed humungous tyres fitted to the XJ6 at 205 section. Narrow tyres meant the tyres of almost any type bit in to the snow and got you there.
Look at the WRC cars in Rally Sweden etc - very narrow tyres, albeit studded...
alock said:
Another winter where I've managed just fine on my summer tyre equipped S2000. Commuted everyday from Winchester to Basingstoke without any issues.
Some people have a lifestyle where they feel they need winter tyres. Others don't.
And some people venture further north than Basingstoke!Some people have a lifestyle where they feel they need winter tyres. Others don't.
Birzzles said:
Interesting to know if BMW are ok on winter tyres. My experience with 2mm of snow in a 520 and with some snow or indeed anything slightly slippy in my 320 means that i wouldnt risk having both cars RWD. I suspect winter tyres would still not give a BMW the traction of a front wheel drive focus? As a result my next car has to be FWD or 4WD to go with my RWD BMW, which has to stay indoors if it is cold out.
BMWs are from Bavarian, plenty of snow there. BMW + winters = all weather ability. I wouldn't spend cash on a new car (FWD/4WD) just for winter when a decent set of winters would do.
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