RE: McLaren P1: powertrain
Discussion
suffolk009 said:
Max_Torque said:
Also, these cars are bespoke, so MclAuto will make a nice little sum on retrofitting / upgrading over the years! (Sir wants the latest battery and another 20Kw, certainly sir, that will NOT be a problem, i'll send the truck/plane/Chinook to come get your car immediately sir....... ;-)
Good point. I read somehwere that whenever an F1 is sold anywhere in the world, it most likely goes back to McLaren for some level of refitting almost immediately.Also, how many Zondas are now exactly as they were when they were first built?
Dblue said:
The new Mac V8 is a ground up new mill that owes nothing to any other engine. It was a bit mute in the 12C to begin with but they've improved it to the point of it being if anything louder than the 458.
It might be loud now, but it still sounds s
te compared to a 458 for example. Loud doesn't mean good, otherwise most de-cat'd corsa's with a drainpipe would be cool.CraigyMc said:
- Undoubtedly
- Nonsense
- Obviously. On the other hand, the car would have to compy with todays regulations and that's not light or easy.
- Name one?
- No doubt, but not road-legally.
- It's not diesel, the active aero is banned, the electric system is banned. They coundn't enter it without radically changing it (even the 12c racer is radically different than the road car)
The F1 made what 630 nearly 20 years ago? Im sure Ferrari could make a V12 in the new Enzo near 800bhp on it's own.
Max_Torque said:
I'm led to believe that if you were to construct a Venn diagram using "Currently owns an F1" and "Ordered a P1" as the two sets, then there would be a very high degree of overlap..... ;-)
This was asked of our 2 F1 owners before in relation to the 12C. Neither were buying. I suspect this will still be true of the P1. Look at the cars in their respective garages (Various Porsches, F40, Zonda etc) for an indication of their tastes.
CraigyMc said:
boxerTen said:
2: I think a V12 big brother for the MP4 could be priced at around Aventador level, i.e. a lot less than the P1.
4: Ferrari's F12, 6.3 litres, 730 bhp. And I was being deliberately conservative. Ferrari's 4.5 litre V8 already achieves 125 bhp/litre. A 6 litre V12, with its 12% smaller cylinders, should be about 4% better than that, i.e. 130 bhp/litre, which equates to 780 bhp.
2. No V12 will fit. The M838 engine is tiny.4: Ferrari's F12, 6.3 litres, 730 bhp. And I was being deliberately conservative. Ferrari's 4.5 litre V8 already achieves 125 bhp/litre. A 6 litre V12, with its 12% smaller cylinders, should be about 4% better than that, i.e. 130 bhp/litre, which equates to 780 bhp.
4. That's not a 6 litre V12, hypothetical or not.
All else being similar, bore to stroke ratio in particular, specific power output scales as the reciprocal of the cube root of the cylinder size, which translated means a 3% decrease in cylinder size gets you a 1% increase in specific power output. Hence I claim 130bhp/litre is reasonable, though not required for my original point.
Grovsie26 said:
CraigyMc said:
- Undoubtedly
- Nonsense
- Obviously. On the other hand, the car would have to compy with todays regulations and that's not light or easy.
- Name one?
- No doubt, but not road-legally.
- It's not diesel, the active aero is banned, the electric system is banned. They coundn't enter it without radically changing it (even the 12c racer is radically different than the road car)
The F1 made what 630 nearly 20 years ago? Im sure Ferrari could make a V12 in the new Enzo near 800bhp on it's own.
I'm sure Ferrari could build a V12 of just about any power level they liked.
I'm not sure at all they could make a 700bhp 6 litre one for the road that would fit in the P12 chassis.
C
Grovsie26 said:
Dblue said:
The new Mac V8 is a ground up new mill that owes nothing to any other engine. It was a bit mute in the 12C to begin with but they've improved it to the point of it being if anything louder than the 458.
It might be loud now, but it still sounds ste compared to a 458 for example. Loud doesn't mean good, otherwise most de-cat'd corsa's with a drainpipe would be cool.McLaren have constantly fettled this car and retro fitted each improvement to all the cars.
So all those certainties from back to back comparisons made 2 years ago are kind of out of date.
GroundEffect said:
Grovsie26 said:
Amirhussain said:
Still don't like the fact that it shares the same engine as the 12C. Special car should have its own unique engine, IMO.
This.How is this going to be better than ringing a N/A Ferrari V12's neck out to 8500revs.
C
FisiP1 said:
jcl said:
FisiP1 said:
As quoted by the post above, prospective owners have been promised that the P1 will be 'far faster' than the Pagani Zonda R.
The Zonda R coincidentally laps the nurburgring in almost exactly the same time as the fastest vairant of the SR8, and faster than the standard version of it.
People need to re-calibrate their idea of what makes for a fast track car with the latest gen of hypercar. The advantages offered by the instantaneous and vast torque of electric motors and huge active aero panels is, at first, unbelievable.
I think people need to remember how quick a 650kg mini LMP car with a flat floor, massive diffuser and rear wing isThe Zonda R coincidentally laps the nurburgring in almost exactly the same time as the fastest vairant of the SR8, and faster than the standard version of it.
People need to re-calibrate their idea of what makes for a fast track car with the latest gen of hypercar. The advantages offered by the instantaneous and vast torque of electric motors and huge active aero panels is, at first, unbelievable.
It's just physics. Again, I'd love to be proved wrong. It wasn't the SR8 RX that set that 6:44. God knows what time something like that would set.
Ninjajim76 said:
caine100 said:
It just sounds like excuses to me. We all know why petrol-electric hybrids have been given a new lease of life and it isn't for performance.
Throttle response on the latest turbo engines has gotten very good and let's be honest; 99% of buyers aren't going to care about that anyway.
Using BMW's S63Tu as an example, it produces peak torque of 501 lb-ft from 1500 rpm to 5750 rpm and peak power of 552 hp from 5750 rpm to 7000 rpm. What's wrong with that?
And let's not forget the limitations of the batteries: the power is not always going to be on tap but you'll still be lugging that weight around.
Given Mclaren's clinically technical prowess I'd be very surprised if the integrated electric motor wasn't actually a motor/generator which would trickle charge the battery when the engine isn't under load (e.g. cruising at motorway speeds). Furthermore, they state the motor's torque is used to assist in reducing engine revs for faster gearchanges - I'd suggest this implies a KERS style system where kinetic energy taken from slowing the engine down would be combined with regenerative braking to charge onboard capacitors (for rapid discharge when a big boost is required). Mclaren aren't stupid and electrical power management systems don't weigh a great deal (and can be tuned to provide a much greater diversity of intervention and power augmentation than more conventional systems), so I'd argue they've included everything they can to give an overall improvement in power delivery.Throttle response on the latest turbo engines has gotten very good and let's be honest; 99% of buyers aren't going to care about that anyway.
Using BMW's S63Tu as an example, it produces peak torque of 501 lb-ft from 1500 rpm to 5750 rpm and peak power of 552 hp from 5750 rpm to 7000 rpm. What's wrong with that?
And let's not forget the limitations of the batteries: the power is not always going to be on tap but you'll still be lugging that weight around.
As to the point about improvements in power delivery of modern turbocharged engines - there's no escaping the fact that boost pressures are limited by the size of the turbo you're running (regardless of Variable Vane technology etc). The more power you want the more air you need getting into the engine (for the same size of engine - the P1 has a 111 hp hike over the 12C), and to ensure engine longevity (you don't want your turbo running to breaking point) the easiest way is to go for a larger turbo, which is what Mclaren appear to have done. The larger the turbo the greater the exhaust pressure required to spool it up (generally called lag) - while modern technology has largely seen the demise of turbo lag, for high performance applications there is no getting away from even a small amount of it. Electrical motor augmentation allows that gap to be filled at the bottom of the rev range, and if it's done well enough you should hardly even notice its intervention. The exceptionally large torque band (combined with very high speed and very quick pick up) of electric motors (compared with IC engines) also means they can be introduced at any point in the rev range to augment IC engine power (a bit like the sport button or sport kick-down on automatic cars), or in simpler terms, like fitting a Nitrous Oxide system which will recharge its own bottle as you drive along the road. Mclaren even give you your own switch for that big kick up the arse Fast and Furious moment!
Petrol/electric hybrids make sense for normal everyday driving and cars with sights set a little lower than 200mph+ (if only to placate the greens). They also make a great deal of sense for extreme performance cars (and not for green reasons, though it doesn't hurt marketing them that way!) - it allows the unavoidable power delivery problems associated with extracting huge power from (relatively) small capacity engines to be masked to give the impression of a much larger n/a engine with less of the associated consumption and emissions problems, and greater flexibility in power delivery.
C
ps: Totally offtopic, but as he deals with cars that look a bit like the Batmobile, it's brilliant that McLaren have hired Wayne Bruce to be their press officer...
isaldiri said:
Dr Z said:
Any clips we can listen to, with all the 'updates'?
The 12C spider carries all the upgrades so any of the road tests of that car will be representative. This video shows some of the testing and has some engine noises: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=ahJG32u3Vwo&a...
From about 81s into that video, you can hear the P1's engine. It sounds lovely to me.
C
CraigyMc said:
isaldiri said:
Dr Z said:
Any clips we can listen to, with all the 'updates'?
The 12C spider carries all the upgrades so any of the road tests of that car will be representative. This video shows some of the testing and has some engine noises: http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=ahJG32u3Vwo&a...
From about 81s into that video, you can hear the P1's engine. It sounds lovely to me.
C
Andy ap said:
The huyara is vulgar!!! wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. i look at it and i think they tried to copy what Spyker did but failed drastically the Zonda on the other hand was by far the best. At least aesthetically.
well, taste is a personal thing... but when you see it in the flesh, the attention to detail is just stunning.. kikiturbo said:
Andy ap said:
The huyara is vulgar!!! wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. i look at it and i think they tried to copy what Spyker did but failed drastically the Zonda on the other hand was by far the best. At least aesthetically.
well, taste is a personal thing... but when you see it in the flesh, the attention to detail is just stunning.. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff