RE Chris Harris video: new Cayman
Discussion
Wills2 said:
No, I've been known to spout a bit myself, but when the Loti driving gods appear gibbering on about things that don't really have any relevance in the real world and start comparing 800kg cars made from fibre glass with bare metal interiors to well rounded all purpose sports cars that offer a blend of everything and do it (the driving gods) with such snobbery and hubris it really does take the biscuit.
And they are always at it.
If well rounded is what you're after and you consider 800kg to be a bad thing, then a porsche is the right car for you.And they are always at it.
However some have different tastes and for many here I'd wager they'd prefer the Exige V6 over a Cayman if they drove them back to back. For many, the negative perception they have of Lotus cars is a deal breaker but for the remaining few I would urge you to try one before spending £60+k on a Cayman. I don't think it was right to dismiss the Exige, it is a real alternative to a Cayman. For similar money you get more performance, more feedback, greater sense of occasion and they sound very good too. They are also longer legged than the previous car with higher gearing and more refinement. Getting in and out isn't easy if you're fat or over 60, granted. Rear visibility is hugely better than the previous car but not as good as a cayman but it absolutely is everyday usable if that is really important. Toyota engines offer great reassurance too. We'll all be driving porsches when we're old and fat anyway, may as well try something else while we still can.
So would I, I think. The Elise can do that sort of trip, but it's really not very good at it, IMO. The Pits said:
Numb, ordinary, inert, uninspiring.
In no way does the Cayman or Boxster (old or new) look any of those here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mFoSpbhAOw
or here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gk-6s-ZhlYs
Perhaps if you just admitted your driving was inept or not good enough, then I would agree they may feel numb, but for a good enough driver they offer a great driving experience.
No-one is saying they're too numb to be driven fast that clearly isn't true (and is largely irrelevant on the road). What people are saying is that they're too numb to be as fun as the best sports cars out there, which is of course an entirely personal thing.
That has nothing to do with how good a driver you are, it's just a question of what elements of driving you enjoy most.
That has nothing to do with how good a driver you are, it's just a question of what elements of driving you enjoy most.
Davey S2 said:
I've done several European trips covering all of the main alpine passes in both my Exige and my Cayman S and disagree.
Of course the Exige / Elise is better on the passes but to describe a Boxster as like a bus leads me conclude that you just aren't a very accomplished driver. My Cayman offered 9/10ths of the performance and entertainment of the Exige and but as an all rounder it's in another league.
For a 3000 mile euro trip I'd take the Cayman S over an Elise / Exige every time. Different matter for a Sunday morning blat or a track day though.
It would appear that you agree that ultimately the Exige is better to drive, even though it has four cylinders and made by turnip farmers from norfolk. It's safe to say then that Lotus must be doing something right to compare favourably with the all-conquering porsche brand with their access to huge resources. I have never disputed that porsche do better all rounders, only that some people want something more focused. The most revered porsches are the less useful and practical ones such as the RS models. They are much worse on the motorway but have much more to offer when the conditions allow. It's really no different. An Exige S is the closest thing you'll get to a Cayman RS. Lets just imagine that porsche announce a Cayman weighing 1176kg with 345bhp. Everyone here would hail it as the second coming. Porsche won't make one for fear of embarassing the 911. But Lotus (dare I even mention that it's a British company?) is already offering that for the same money as the new Cayman. Of course the Exige / Elise is better on the passes but to describe a Boxster as like a bus leads me conclude that you just aren't a very accomplished driver. My Cayman offered 9/10ths of the performance and entertainment of the Exige and but as an all rounder it's in another league.
For a 3000 mile euro trip I'd take the Cayman S over an Elise / Exige every time. Different matter for a Sunday morning blat or a track day though.
I don't think it should cause any offence to suggest that a few here might try one before they head to the porsche dealer. Even if Chris Harris thinks there's no point.
The Pits said:
Wills2 said:
No, I've been known to spout a bit myself, but when the Loti driving gods appear gibbering on about things that don't really have any relevance in the real world and start comparing 800kg cars made from fibre glass with bare metal interiors to well rounded all purpose sports cars that offer a blend of everything and do it (the driving gods) with such snobbery and hubris it really does take the biscuit.
And they are always at it.
If well rounded is what you're after and you consider 800kg to be a bad thing, then a porsche is the right car for you.And they are always at it.
However some have different tastes and for many here I'd wager they'd prefer the Exige V6 over a Cayman if they drove them back to back. For many, the negative perception they have of Lotus cars is a deal breaker but for the remaining few I would urge you to try one before spending £60+k on a Cayman. I don't think it was right to dismiss the Exige, it is a real alternative to a Cayman. For similar money you get more performance, more feedback, greater sense of occasion and they sound very good too. They are also longer legged than the previous car with higher gearing and more refinement. Getting in and out isn't easy if you're fat or over 60, granted. Rear visibility is hugely better than the previous car but not as good as a cayman but it absolutely is everyday usable if that is really important. Toyota engines offer great reassurance too. We'll all be driving porsches when we're old and fat anyway, may as well try something else while we still can.
But an elise/exige isn't a boxster/cayman they both answer different questions, money no object I'd love an exige on the driveway (and lots of other cars as well) but not as a daily driver.
The issue for Lotus is Porsche make cars that are easy to live with and great to drive, that's why people buy them.
Wills2 said:
The issue for Lotus is Porsche make cars that are easy to live with and great to drive, that's why people buy them.
The issue for Lotus is that their cars are flawed in too many ways for too many people. If Porsche suddenly ceased to exist, it would do next to nothing to Elise sales and probably little for Evora ones. Lotus produce cars that score 10/10 in the ride/handling/control/etc. stakes but 3-5/10 in everything else; Porsche produce cars that get 8 or 9/10 in everything. For a small number of us, the Lotus products are better, because we're willing to put up with 4/10 build quality for 10/10 handling; for the vast majority of people the Porsche is s superior product.
Of course other manufacturers (Mercedes, BMW, etc.) make cars that manage 7-9/10 in every department; if Porsche vanished, 99% of their buyers would move to them, not Lotus.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 23 February 14:23
kambites said:
Wills2 said:
The issue for Lotus is Porsche make cars that are easy to live with and great to drive, that's why people buy them.
The issue for Lotus is that their cars are flawed in too many ways for too many people. If Porsche suddenly ceased to exist, it would do next to nothing to Elise sales and probably little for Evora ones. juansolo said:
kambites said:
Wills2 said:
The issue for Lotus is Porsche make cars that are easy to live with and great to drive, that's why people buy them.
The issue for Lotus is that their cars are flawed in too many ways for too many people. If Porsche suddenly ceased to exist, it would do next to nothing to Elise sales and probably little for Evora ones. The issue is that porsche will continue to make cars until kingdom come.
Lotus are facing a very real struggle for survival.
It's terribly a old fashioned and unpopular notion but while British alternatives still exist I will do my best to support them.
That's all there is to it really.
Lotus are facing a very real struggle for survival.
It's terribly a old fashioned and unpopular notion but while British alternatives still exist I will do my best to support them.
That's all there is to it really.
There are car enthusiasts and there are car enthusiasts. And then there are people who like a nice car to show off to their mates. Unfortunately 99% of people who buy these cars don't really care about steering feel and the ultimate in chassis finesse if it is to the detriment of image and ultimate build quality.
I am in the Lotus camp on this one as for me the most important aspect of any car is steering feel. Pure and simple. And yes, I drive an Elise (which has been nothing but totally reliable) because it is better at it than all the 100 odd other cars I have driven, many Porsches included.
And whilst I am not patriotic at all, even I do admit that driving the Lotus is more than a little special and gives me a warm feeling when people in their inevitably German cars give me a look and a often a smile.
Like the Pits says, the Lotus is the harder, faster version of a Porsche - I see them as Porsche RSs in many ways.
The fact that the Exige will no doubt depreciate slower than the Cayman is the just a bonus
I am in the Lotus camp on this one as for me the most important aspect of any car is steering feel. Pure and simple. And yes, I drive an Elise (which has been nothing but totally reliable) because it is better at it than all the 100 odd other cars I have driven, many Porsches included.
And whilst I am not patriotic at all, even I do admit that driving the Lotus is more than a little special and gives me a warm feeling when people in their inevitably German cars give me a look and a often a smile.
Like the Pits says, the Lotus is the harder, faster version of a Porsche - I see them as Porsche RSs in many ways.
The fact that the Exige will no doubt depreciate slower than the Cayman is the just a bonus
Mermaid said:
SidewaysSi said:
Maybe. Or Exige Cup and £5k's worth of 986 Boxster. Sorted.
Choice is endless - Porsche for the week and one of these at these at the week-endOr a GT3/Evora/M3 CSL for the whole week.
Wills2 said:
kambites said:
What a strange comment. The Pits said:
The issue is that porsche will continue to make cars until kingdom come.
Lotus are facing a very real struggle for survival.
It's terribly a old fashioned and unpopular notion but while British alternatives still exist I will do my best to support them.
That's all there is to it really.
How ironic, as from my perspective and I'm sure its true for the 100's of readers of this post, you've managed to alienate and dissuade many who are struggling with the "Do I buy a Cayman, Boxter, Elsie, Exige debate?" from your myopic, passive/aggressive, holier than thou attitude. Lotus are facing a very real struggle for survival.
It's terribly a old fashioned and unpopular notion but while British alternatives still exist I will do my best to support them.
That's all there is to it really.
I'd go so far as to say you're actually damaging sales of Lotus by being such an utter k**b. Lotus should ban you from commenting. Your attitude is reflected in your user name.
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