RE Chris Harris video: new Cayman

[k-ink]

For the record I bought a brand new 111R when they very first came out, so I've done my tiny bit to help Lotus along. What put me off buying another were two things. Firstly I found them physically uncomfortable and too noisey after an hour. For short blasts they are amazing. But I ended up fantasising about being in a quiet, comfy sports car instead. Secondly the prices went up vastly from what I paid, even though the cars hardly changed over the years (stickers, trim tweaks, or bolt on do not count for much cost). So this meant they would have to be a very poor value for money expensive second car. A Cayman may not be as good as a Lotus at steering, but it is no doubt in another league for all else. Not everyone is a hardcore track lover all the time. Even though we may fancy it for half an hour on a summers day now and then.

[heebeegeetee]

nbirch said:

I'd go so far as to say you're actually damaging sales of Lotus by being such an utter k**b.

Damn right. I've been reading comments like his for over 30 years. I have volumes of Motor Sport magazine from the 1950's with Moggie Minor owners blaming Bill Boddy for the fact that Beetles were out-selling Moggies.

The clearly felt that quality had nowt to do with it.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Monday 25th February 00:02

[k-ink]

The Lotus quality is fine - if the price is right. Lightweight cars will always feel more flimsy than a heavy 'properly' made normal cars. That is not a shock is it. Try sitting in a real race car - some are paper thin! But I think the problem is Lotus are now very expensive compared to what they were, even not that long ago.

[heebeegeetee]

That wasn't a dig at Lotus quality btw. Sorry if it reads like that.

[k-ink]

They are what they are. Light and basic. I can see some would hate the perceived low quality. Each to their own and all that. It is a shock after normal cars for sure. But then that is the trade off. You cannot argue with physics. Light weight is what makes them turn so well.

[The Pits]

heebeegeetee said:

Damn right. I've been reading comments like his for over 30 years. I have volumes of Motor Sport magazine from the 1950's with Moggie Minor owners blaming Bill Boddy for the fact that Beetles were out-selling Moggies.

The clearly felt that quality had nowt to do with it.

Edited by heebeegeetee on Monday 25th February 00:02

So you're still punishing what's left of the British motor industry for what happened in the 50's (it's usually the 70's)? Seems extremely harsh. I think they've more than paid for their crimes. German cars have enjoyed default status in the UK for years, so the point has been made and hard lessons learned. Trouble is, the germans have had to cut corners with quality to make profit, they can no longer afford to 'over-engineer' so these days you can't honestly say that a mercedes is better made than a jaguar. You can even argue that the current mercs and bmw's are worse according to some ownership satisfaction surveys.

Funny, my wife had a VW Polo, very reliable. 5500rpm red-line for longevity. But I kept wishing the bloody thing would break down so we could get something more interesting!

[heebeegeetee]

The Pits said:

So you're still punishing what's left of the British motor industry for what happened in the 50's (it's usually the 70's)?

Not at all, I'm just saying that the same stuff has been said for decades.

The message those such as yourselves give is either "let's not build our cars better" or "let's not sell to the market". It's just "let's shoot the messenger boy". Then blame everyone else for the cars not selling or the business not being profitable.

[Chris71]

I'll reserve judgement 'till I've tried one, but I'm slightly concerned about all this talk of reduced steering feel.

Obviously at one extreme - quite understandably for a car of the new Cayman's performance - a lot of drivers have no intention of approaching the limit of adhesion on the road. At the other extreme you have the Chris Harris's of this world with more than enough god-given talent to cope with what happens irrespective of whether the steering gives them any warning beforehand. But for those in the middle I can't help thinking that a clear indication of tyre slip angle is an underrated commodity.

I realise this isn't usually how it works from an engineering perspective, but given the choice I'd rather trade a bit of precision or directness for a clearer indication of the remaining grip levels.

[The Pits]

nbirch said:

How ironic, as from my perspective and I'm sure its true for the 100's of readers of this post, you've managed to alienate and dissuade many who are struggling with the "Do I buy a Cayman, Boxter, Elsie, Exige debate?" from your myopic, passive/aggressive, holier than thou attitude.

I'd go so far as to say you're actually damaging sales of Lotus by being such an utter k**b. Lotus should ban you from commenting. Your attitude is reflected in your user name.

I wish there was a struggle and I'm trying to provide some debate. 99% will buy porsche. Autocar are hailing it the 'world's best sports car'. Chris Harris has dismissed the idea that it has any rivals. I do find that an extraordinary conclusion given that all it offers over the previous car is 10bhp more a more upmarket interior and panamera inspired styling.

Regardless, it would appear that there is no reason to spend your £60k on anything else unless, like me, you find it ugly and much prefer the previous Cayman.

It really isn't any kind of threat to porsche nor their fans to suggest that a few people here might prefer something else.

[k-ink]

The Pits said:

Funny, my wife had a VW Polo, very reliable. 5500rpm red-line for longevity. But I kept wishing the bloody thing would break down so we could get something more interesting!

The small VAG mobiles do tend to be rather damn reliable. I guess that is purely because they are simple. The poloar opposite of their large efforts, which seem less than bullet proof. Which is odd considering what they charge for their top cars and spare parts. There is definately something to be said for the KISS principle!

[The Pits]

heebeegeetee said:

Not at all, I'm just saying that the same stuff has been said for decades.

The message those such as yourselves give is either "let's not build our cars better" or "let's not sell to the market". It's just "let's shoot the messenger boy". Then blame everyone else for the cars not selling or the business not being profitable.

...mmm...

let me think about that for a moment...



nope, definitely never given out either of those messages. Neither has anyone else in human history.

Could be time to move on from 1950's car mags.

[heebeegeetee]

The Pits said:

I do find that an extraordinary conclusion given that all it offers over the previous car is 10bhp more a more upmarket interior and panamera inspired styling.

What about the claimed 40% increase in stiffness? Does that not count? Did the upmarket interior provide this?

The Pits said:

nope, definitely never given out either of those messages. Neither has anyone else in human history.

No, you definitely have, amongst others. Whether you realise it or not, that is the message you give out. You criticise the journalists for reporting what they find (though they've been praising the new Exige to the skies from what I've seen) and you criticise people for not buying the car that you think they should, without ever coming up with the right reasons why people don't buy your favourite car.

[kambites]

heebeegeetee said:

What about the claimed 40% increase in stiffness? Does that not count? Did the upmarket interior provide this?

Did anyone actually feel that the old car was lacking in rigidity? It always felt incredibly stiff to me.

I'm sure they've improved other bits of the chassis setup too, mind.

[Davey S2]

The Pits said:

Chris Harris has dismissed the idea that it has any rivals.

What are they then?

Not the Exige V6 as it isn't really a useable everyday car other than for the very committed.

[The Pits]

Chris71 said:

I'll reserve judgement 'till I've tried one, but I'm slightly concerned about all this talk of reduced steering feel.

Obviously at one extreme - quite understandably for a car of the new Cayman's performance - a lot of drivers have no intention of approaching the limit of adhesion on the road. At the other extreme you have the Chris Harris's of this world with more than enough god-given talent to cope with what happens irrespective of whether the steering gives them any warning beforehand. But for those in the middle I can't help thinking that a clear indication of tyre slip angle is an underrated commodity.

I realise this isn't usually how it works from an engineering perspective, but given the choice I'd rather trade a bit of precision or directness for a clearer indication of the remaining grip levels.

Agreed. The video clearly proves that the electric steering is no impediment to incredibly precise drifting in Chris Harris's hands.

It's very hard to believe that the Cayman R on the same day, in the same hands, could have been more precise or impressive to watch. So there may not be a measurable difference but porsche steering used to be what set them apart from cars like the BMW M3 in terms of driving pleasure. Quite a bold move to ditch that advantage. Then again Ferrari invent and perfect the most tactile manual gearchange of all time (the open gate) and then dump it for paddles and it appears not to have done any harm to their balance sheet.

But I'd argue that steering feel and the way a car reacts to steering inputs (a combination of suspension set-up and weight distribution) is at the very centre of what I consider to be driving pleasure. It's above engine noise for me. You can put a lambo V10 in the front of an audi and the lack of steering feel can take a lot away from the experience. Great steering can be enjoyed at all speeds too.

[The Pits]

kambites said:

Did anyone actually feel that the old car was lacking in rigidity? It always felt incredibly stiff to me.

I'm sure they've improved other bits of the chassis setup too, mind.

It's well known that porsche don't do radical step changes. They don't do radical anything. Evolution is a Stuttgart mantra.

Yet 10bhp more and it's being hailed as the new messiah? I don't get it. In summary Chris Harris attributes the biggest gain over the previous car is in styling. It's now more 'desirable' apparently. He admitted it didn't feel noticeably faster than the Boxster S and only very marginally sharper dynamically. If, like me, you think the previous car was better looking then the new one isn't meaningfully better.

[heebeegeetee]

kambites said:

Did anyone actually feel that the old car was lacking in rigidity? It always felt incredibly stiff to me.

I'm sure they've improved other bits of the chassis setup too, mind.

Tbh I always take this sort of thing with a pinch of salt. However, *clearly* the car is more than than that as described by the Pits.

[isaldiri]

Davey S2 said:

What are they then?

Not the Exige V6 as it isn't really a useable everyday car other than for the very committed.

The Evora S?

Comparing the Exige V6 to the Cayman is a bit unfair on both cars as the Exige is a far more of a no compromise track car so being that much lighter will always have a steering/handling advantage while giving up a lot of interior build/creature comforts to the Cayman.

One thing that seems a bit unusual, the 991's electric steering got somewhat panned generally if I remember correctly and yet that aspect of the Cayman seems to be somewhat glossed over by most reviews. Perhaps Porsche have improved that on the Cayman relative to the 991 I suppose....

[Chris71]

isaldiri said:

One thing that seems a bit unusual, the 991's electric steering got somewhat panned generally if I remember correctly and yet that aspect of the Cayman seems to be somewhat glossed over by most reviews. Perhaps Porsche have improved that on the Cayman relative to the 991 I suppose....

I think it's just familiarity. We've already had the 991 and the Boxster so everyone knew what to expect from the Cayman's steering. It's certainly a noticeable change on the 991 versus the 997.

The same thing applies across the board. You get the occasional Lotus or something that bucks the trend, but pretty much all manufacturers are finding it harder to engineer true feel through the steering. As a result it's become more or less become acceptable to produce a sports car with little or not feel providing its other traits make up for that. Shame.

[kambites]

Chris71 said:

The same thing applies across the board. You get the occasional Lotus or something that bucks the trend, but pretty much all manufacturers are finding it harder to engineer true feel through the steering. As a result it's become more or less become acceptable to produce a sports car with little or not feel providing its other traits make up for that. Shame.

We'll get to the point within the next couple of generations of cars where the whole concept of steering feel is largely forgotten in mainstream cars.