RE: PH Heroes: Honda S2000
Discussion
petrolhead888 said:
Oh and by the way almost forgot...hehe!
A stiff car surely is EASIER to slide than a softer one???(unless you like Roll oversteer?)
Hence why drift cars are set up to be really hard at the rear than at the front?
To get traction you need a softer rear and as you point out a softer car is more forgiving I agree with that
But If you drove a race car on the road then first it would understeer because the front tyres would be pattering on the unsmooth tarmac because of the stiff front end and a bit of front roll also = turn in as the front being softer helps the nose turn in so therefore a stiff car would not grip as well at the front and as people have said the S2000 has very little understeer so have to disagree with the statement it is stiff because of being like a race car as if it was that stiff then it would understeer then oversteer in a reasonably controlled manner.
Then on exit a stiff car at the rear would slide very easy and not be able to get the power down very easy because of minimal travel on the rear under load thereby on a bumpy road running out of ideas very quickly.
The S2000 if it was a good race car would respond to driver input, whether that is being neat or being lurid.
The S2000 has a rear bump steer issue ( toes out under compression ) ... This is what makes the S2000 snap oversteer ...Maybe the later cars are so much better
The fact that it goes from neutral to snap oversteer very quickly, yet is not rear or mid engined is a flaw and no race car I have ever driven has electric power steering with no feel either
Sorry...
Yes Sorry, but I'm afraid I have to dispute your findings.A stiff car surely is EASIER to slide than a softer one???(unless you like Roll oversteer?)
Hence why drift cars are set up to be really hard at the rear than at the front?
To get traction you need a softer rear and as you point out a softer car is more forgiving I agree with that
But If you drove a race car on the road then first it would understeer because the front tyres would be pattering on the unsmooth tarmac because of the stiff front end and a bit of front roll also = turn in as the front being softer helps the nose turn in so therefore a stiff car would not grip as well at the front and as people have said the S2000 has very little understeer so have to disagree with the statement it is stiff because of being like a race car as if it was that stiff then it would understeer then oversteer in a reasonably controlled manner.
Then on exit a stiff car at the rear would slide very easy and not be able to get the power down very easy because of minimal travel on the rear under load thereby on a bumpy road running out of ideas very quickly.
The S2000 if it was a good race car would respond to driver input, whether that is being neat or being lurid.
The S2000 has a rear bump steer issue ( toes out under compression ) ... This is what makes the S2000 snap oversteer ...Maybe the later cars are so much better
The fact that it goes from neutral to snap oversteer very quickly, yet is not rear or mid engined is a flaw and no race car I have ever driven has electric power steering with no feel either
Sorry...
Perhaps the fact that I have done a few hundred miles around Bathurst in both Lotus 18s & Lotus 20S gives me an edge. However, if you think an S2000, [& mine is a 2001] is very snappy, go try some of Mr Chapman's early offerings.
Granted it will be snappy if you are going too slow, then feed in too much power. That type of driving, that looks & feels spectacular in lesser handling cars, will get you into a great deal of trouble in an S2k, or those early Lotus open wheelers.
Like most really quick things, they really only handle above 8 tenths. I used to find even such a forgiving thing as a Brabham, would get cranky if you tried to potter about the place.
I will agree that the steering is lifeless, but again, it does come much better, the closer to the limit you approach.
I would never let my daughter take the S, although I'm quite happy for her to drive the TR8, which has more power, & is quicker down the strip. The 8 will give her a fright, without getting dangerous, where the S2k does get dangerous, before giving that fright. That is their real failing.
Still mine will stay with me, until they take my licence off me.
petrolhead888 said:
Oh and incidently.......
As all race drivers think...
Of course I think I am awesome!
That's true, but those of us who are, don't have to shout about it As all race drivers think...
Of course I think I am awesome!
Hasbeen said:
Yes Sorry, but I'm afraid I have to dispute your findings.
Perhaps the fact that I have done a few hundred miles around Bathurst in both Lotus 18s & Lotus 20S gives me an edge. However, if you think an S2000, [& mine is a 2001] is very snappy, go try some of Mr Chapman's early offerings.
Granted it will be snappy if you are going too slow, then feed in too much power. That type of driving, that looks & feels spectacular in lesser handling cars, will get you into a great deal of trouble in an S2k, or those early Lotus open wheelers.
Like most really quick things, they really only handle above 8 tenths. I used to find even such a forgiving thing as a Brabham, would get cranky if you tried to potter about the place.
I will agree that the steering is lifeless, but again, it does come much better, the closer to the limit you approach.
I would never let my daughter take the S, although I'm quite happy for her to drive the TR8, which has more power, & is quicker down the strip. The 8 will give her a fright, without getting dangerous, where the S2k does get dangerous, before giving that fright. That is their real failing.
Still mine will stay with me, until they take my licence off me.
Excellent post.Perhaps the fact that I have done a few hundred miles around Bathurst in both Lotus 18s & Lotus 20S gives me an edge. However, if you think an S2000, [& mine is a 2001] is very snappy, go try some of Mr Chapman's early offerings.
Granted it will be snappy if you are going too slow, then feed in too much power. That type of driving, that looks & feels spectacular in lesser handling cars, will get you into a great deal of trouble in an S2k, or those early Lotus open wheelers.
Like most really quick things, they really only handle above 8 tenths. I used to find even such a forgiving thing as a Brabham, would get cranky if you tried to potter about the place.
I will agree that the steering is lifeless, but again, it does come much better, the closer to the limit you approach.
I would never let my daughter take the S, although I'm quite happy for her to drive the TR8, which has more power, & is quicker down the strip. The 8 will give her a fright, without getting dangerous, where the S2k does get dangerous, before giving that fright. That is their real failing.
Still mine will stay with me, until they take my licence off me.
Fastdruid said:
The S2000 while damn good for a convertible isn't *that* torsionally stiff. It's certainly no race car.
Early ones suffer from bump steer, no one should have to piss about 'correcting' suspension geometry (as different to improving it) or worrying that 1-2psi under or over inflated tyres will see them backwards through a hedge. Other manufacturers manage it.
Same goes for steering feel, you don't see anyone complaining about the steering feel on the RX-8, yet that has Showa EPAS and I'm willing to bet quite large amounts of money that Showa also make the EPAS for the S2000.
Simply put the S2000 is a fantastic yet flawed car as stock, anyone who excuses it on the basis that "well all RWD cars are like that", they aren't. Although anything on cold RE040/50's on an icy day can be somewhat of a handful. ;-)
The early ones didn't suffer from bump steer the geo was too track focused for journo's & road use as per the orginal design concept of a very nimble roadsterEarly ones suffer from bump steer, no one should have to piss about 'correcting' suspension geometry (as different to improving it) or worrying that 1-2psi under or over inflated tyres will see them backwards through a hedge. Other manufacturers manage it.
Same goes for steering feel, you don't see anyone complaining about the steering feel on the RX-8, yet that has Showa EPAS and I'm willing to bet quite large amounts of money that Showa also make the EPAS for the S2000.
Simply put the S2000 is a fantastic yet flawed car as stock, anyone who excuses it on the basis that "well all RWD cars are like that", they aren't. Although anything on cold RE040/50's on an icy day can be somewhat of a handful. ;-)
All they changed on the mk2 was the geo and a few cosmetics which stopped the "ditch finding" they then changed the suspension slightly on a the mk3 (facelift) to make them even more benign.
From mk2 onwards if the geo was set as per factory recommendation they are fine, those that struggle with the handling very often are miles out.
Agree with you on the steering but the lower braces helped a lot
Also agree on the RE0**'s I changed them on my S2000's and will be changing them on my current car when they wear out
Having said all that most owners will never drive it any where near where these "characteristics" become an issue, many won't even bother to check geo, tyre pressures & types.
I had one in 03 and enjoyed the experience. I never found the backend snappy with at all, only if you lifted mid corner when it Vtec, the car could be vtec'd through all the gears round most bends once the tires were warmed up.I even enjoyed driving it in the wet, smooth style required to go fast though
The lack of Torque did become tiring in the end. Also it doesn't matter that the engine produces a over hundred BHP per litre, it's total output that counts, this is just a nerdy stat in the end.
I remember at the time I looked into increasing the steering feel because I understeered across a roundabout once and the steering was completely void of any sort of change in weight or texture.
Good car overall and a bargain in the second hand market
The lack of Torque did become tiring in the end. Also it doesn't matter that the engine produces a over hundred BHP per litre, it's total output that counts, this is just a nerdy stat in the end.
I remember at the time I looked into increasing the steering feel because I understeered across a roundabout once and the steering was completely void of any sort of change in weight or texture.
Good car overall and a bargain in the second hand market
yes...lol
Ok its time to leave this thread as your dammed if you say how you KNOW you can handle rear drive in response to people saying guys who think a mk1 S2000 is too twitchy to be a real drivers car and therefore must not be able to drive RWD.
It was merely to show that I know what i`m talking about..
But who Am I to give an opinion...
Oh well I will take my thoughts elsewhere when Im out driving my PROPER rear wheel drive car...
Ok its time to leave this thread as your dammed if you say how you KNOW you can handle rear drive in response to people saying guys who think a mk1 S2000 is too twitchy to be a real drivers car and therefore must not be able to drive RWD.
It was merely to show that I know what i`m talking about..
But who Am I to give an opinion...
Oh well I will take my thoughts elsewhere when Im out driving my PROPER rear wheel drive car...
petrolhead888 said:
But who Am I to give an opinion...
I have found this thread an interesting read and that includes your contribution. 
I think you mentioned that a key aspect of your idea of a good handling RWD car should be adjustability – that’s the part which is open to debate/opinion.
Some variety is welcome in the world of RWD sports cars and if the S2000 is more of a scalpel along the lines of an Elise/Exige (i.e. keep it neat and tidy), that ought to be OK when other cars exist that have a more playful setup.
However, the flipside of being a scalpel is that it should give the benefit of ultimately being a bit quicker than a more benign setup. If, for example, the S2000 is no quicker than a RX8, 350Z or 3.0 Z4 (or indeed a DC2 Integra) in the corners, or not significantly better as a part-time track car, the car’s sensitive setup isn’t justified and is open to valid criticism.
(I don't what the answer is to the above, by the way.)
The S2000 is certainly a car I am tempted to try.
braddo, in the mid 60s, when I had ideas of becoming a top open wheeler driver, I was discussing my next move with a very knowledgeable mate. Should I sell the house, & buy a new Brabham sort of thing.
He pointed out that we had 7 Lotus 20 formula juniors in Oz. Over 30 very good drivers had raced one of them over about 6 years. Some were hopeless in them, but about 23 had got down to 1.52 around Warwick Farm, our premier circuit of the day. This was very quick for second string race cars.
He then pointed out that only 5 drivers had gone quicker than that 1.52, & each one of them had managed to do 1.46 or a little better, a full 6 seconds quicker. As I expect you understand this is like comparing a bicycle against a good car. Obviously only a very few drivers could really get to grips with the Lotus 20. That 1.52 was probably achieving 7/10s of the cars capability, & was very quick. 1.46 was probably up about 9/10s, or just above.
The difference was only a few could control a full 4 wheel drift, [no not that tyre smoking stuff they call drifting today], with only 100 BHP or so do do it with. Many tried of course, & many cars were bent. I should try myself in one of them was his advice.
I bought a 20, achieved that 1.46, [the 6Th driver to do so], & moved on to a Brabham, a much easier, but a bit less satisfying car to drive.
I put the S2k in something like that Lotus category. Any good driver can go very quickly in one, & will run away from most stock cars. However it takes considerable ability to get the very best out of them, with out getting into trouble.
At my age I no longer have the ability to exceed that 7/10Th limit, but do still find the S a very satisfying, & flattering car to drive about the place. It certainly makes you look good. Best of all, it's fun, & puts a smile on my face, even if the occasional unexpected tail slide in the wet sends a shiver up my spine.
He pointed out that we had 7 Lotus 20 formula juniors in Oz. Over 30 very good drivers had raced one of them over about 6 years. Some were hopeless in them, but about 23 had got down to 1.52 around Warwick Farm, our premier circuit of the day. This was very quick for second string race cars.
He then pointed out that only 5 drivers had gone quicker than that 1.52, & each one of them had managed to do 1.46 or a little better, a full 6 seconds quicker. As I expect you understand this is like comparing a bicycle against a good car. Obviously only a very few drivers could really get to grips with the Lotus 20. That 1.52 was probably achieving 7/10s of the cars capability, & was very quick. 1.46 was probably up about 9/10s, or just above.
The difference was only a few could control a full 4 wheel drift, [no not that tyre smoking stuff they call drifting today], with only 100 BHP or so do do it with. Many tried of course, & many cars were bent. I should try myself in one of them was his advice.
I bought a 20, achieved that 1.46, [the 6Th driver to do so], & moved on to a Brabham, a much easier, but a bit less satisfying car to drive.
I put the S2k in something like that Lotus category. Any good driver can go very quickly in one, & will run away from most stock cars. However it takes considerable ability to get the very best out of them, with out getting into trouble.
At my age I no longer have the ability to exceed that 7/10Th limit, but do still find the S a very satisfying, & flattering car to drive about the place. It certainly makes you look good. Best of all, it's fun, & puts a smile on my face, even if the occasional unexpected tail slide in the wet sends a shiver up my spine.
So, this will be my first post..
Fantastic read trough the last 12 pages, I'll share some of my experiences with the car.
I first encountered the S2000 back in '03.
Went on a trip to Germany with a friend to collect a car, and and came back in love! (With the S2000...)
It did 280km/h on the speedo (limiter in sixth gear) and was just an awesome car..!
I made myself a promise that "some day" I'd get me one of those.
So fast forward to 2012 and I went back to Germany to collect one of my own.
I knew they could be a bit of a handful when pushed to the limit, so I went to my local track to find out when it would bite..
Check out the Youtube clip, it's from Rudskogen in Norway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGX1XJpaCR0
Car performed all day, bar some brake fade, hence a bit to much speed carried into a fast righthander..
Looks silly, I know. But lesson learned I haven't spun it since, including an outing on the same track sideways in the rain.
Went on to drive the car for a week and a half trough Europe with my fiancee, including two days at the Nurburgring.
To my surprise she endend up doing two laps (I hanged on for dear life..) and after only 8 laps we clocked the last two with me behind the wheel.
Best BTG 8.26,- roof down..
So..
My wife have driven it around the Nürburgring without spinning, and it went 10 secs faster than my previous car a E36 M3.
Is the S2000 as stable, or easy to pile on speed in as the M3? Heck no..
But for shere thrills It's the best car I've ever owned. And when the weather is nice you can drop the roof down and pootle around like it's a civic..
What's not to like?!?
Fantastic read trough the last 12 pages, I'll share some of my experiences with the car.
I first encountered the S2000 back in '03.
Went on a trip to Germany with a friend to collect a car, and and came back in love! (With the S2000...)
It did 280km/h on the speedo (limiter in sixth gear) and was just an awesome car..!
I made myself a promise that "some day" I'd get me one of those.
So fast forward to 2012 and I went back to Germany to collect one of my own.
I knew they could be a bit of a handful when pushed to the limit, so I went to my local track to find out when it would bite..
Check out the Youtube clip, it's from Rudskogen in Norway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGX1XJpaCR0
Car performed all day, bar some brake fade, hence a bit to much speed carried into a fast righthander..
Looks silly, I know. But lesson learned I haven't spun it since, including an outing on the same track sideways in the rain.
Went on to drive the car for a week and a half trough Europe with my fiancee, including two days at the Nurburgring.
To my surprise she endend up doing two laps (I hanged on for dear life..) and after only 8 laps we clocked the last two with me behind the wheel.
Best BTG 8.26,- roof down..
So..
My wife have driven it around the Nürburgring without spinning, and it went 10 secs faster than my previous car a E36 M3.
Is the S2000 as stable, or easy to pile on speed in as the M3? Heck no..
But for shere thrills It's the best car I've ever owned. And when the weather is nice you can drop the roof down and pootle around like it's a civic..
What's not to like?!?
Edited by Schnelljos on Thursday 28th February 17:39
I m interested in getting an s2000 in the near future so have been reading this thread regularly.
My question is for people who say its unremarkable at low speeds? im just wondering in what sense? as i would imagine a 2 seat convertable is less meh around town than an average hatchback.
For instance my old clio 182 was brilliant when being driven hard but in town it was largely like a normal clio with a crap turning circle!
My question is for people who say its unremarkable at low speeds? im just wondering in what sense? as i would imagine a 2 seat convertable is less meh around town than an average hatchback.
For instance my old clio 182 was brilliant when being driven hard but in town it was largely like a normal clio with a crap turning circle!
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