RE: PH Heroes: Honda S2000
Discussion
This really is a car that divides opinion isnt it ?.
I lose count of the number of times i have read similar threads where one camp states "its a great car", then another states "the handling is compromised so it isnt" then the initial camp replies in vitriolic style "its actually a great handling car, its just very *focussed*. It is only people that cant drive a RWD car that say its not an epic sports car" (normally a smilie is attached to the latter presumably to project in some way that the statement just made isnt quite as insulting about the driving ability of the person they dont know, whom they have just questioned the manhood of, over the internet).
For the record, I think the S2000 is a good car, but it wouldnt feature as a "PH Hero" for me, its nearly, but not quite there. Here is the soporifically lengthy response i posted last time this argument did the rounds - when a prospective buyer was asking for advice on the "would you" thread, and the argument depicted above (and in this thread) was taking place.
R.
I lose count of the number of times i have read similar threads where one camp states "its a great car", then another states "the handling is compromised so it isnt" then the initial camp replies in vitriolic style "its actually a great handling car, its just very *focussed*. It is only people that cant drive a RWD car that say its not an epic sports car" (normally a smilie is attached to the latter presumably to project in some way that the statement just made isnt quite as insulting about the driving ability of the person they dont know, whom they have just questioned the manhood of, over the internet).
For the record, I think the S2000 is a good car, but it wouldnt feature as a "PH Hero" for me, its nearly, but not quite there. Here is the soporifically lengthy response i posted last time this argument did the rounds - when a prospective buyer was asking for advice on the "would you" thread, and the argument depicted above (and in this thread) was taking place.
R.
M@verick said:
I don’t particularly want to start picking apart another forum users post, and I fully respect that everyone has opinions, none more or less valid than the next – so don’t take this as negative, but I thought in the interests of giving Braddo a prospective purchaser of a used S2K, a balanced perspective on them, as an ex long term owner of an 02 S2K I should probably comment on the post below.
The S2000 by comparison, never *really* instilled that sort of trust, the closer you got to the limit the more and more you got the sense that you needed more feedback but were receiving it with little nuggets filtered out. Even when keeping inputs smooth and being careful not to unbalance the car, setting it up for corners, and monitoring weight transfer it felt like the car was doing my bidding but against its wishes, there was always a nagging doubt that it might bite. Let me suffix this by saying that I never crashed mine, I span it several times on tracks/airfield days when exploring power oversteer with an instructor, and I had a couple of big moments on the road whilst driving “enthusiastically” but not aggressively. I should also say that I had some really engaging drives in the car – to a certain level and in the dry the car does gel, it just always felt to me that past a certain point the car began to feel ragged and I didn’t enjoy the drive. In the wet, all bets were off completely – but then as others have said, I wouldn’t attempt to drive any sports car fast in the wet so this was less of a problem and more a case of being on high alert for anything that might unsettle the car in normal driving. Likewise as I stated previously – for me, the car didn’t feel easily recoverable if there was a “moment” because the car snapped quickly into oversteer and there never seemed to be enough time to apply enough corrective lock (its also worthy of note for me, that the various moments I witnessed or read about from fellow owners tended not to be “tank slappers” where overcorrection was the problem – it all tended to happen in one big violent transition into oversteer which there wasn’t enough time or lock available to correct – this underlines that even in slow speed accidents that the problem was the speed with which it broke away and the lack of feedback available to the driver up unto that point).
t, instead of showing it respect” etc etc is just not true, or objective. Don’t take my word for this, Google and research the car, and read a cross section of motoring reviews.
I am not suggesting the S2000 is a widow maker, the handling is not *that* much of an issue. However I am suggesting that for whatever reason the S2000 does not instil as much confidence in the driver as its peer cars might, and that the handling can be snappy at the limit, which is a problem in a car which is a little light on steering feel / feedback. This is what makes me feel that the S2000 is compromised as a sports car. I say this having driven many cars which I knew to have had reputations as widow makers, or that I knew to be “a handful” (The Tuscan Speed 6 I had a few blasts in was indeed “all martial and no art” at times to my mind, but it was still a very enjoyable brute, and I felt confident in what it was doing, when it was doing it).
The S2000 has a very loyal following, to its credit. I think this is one of the reasons why it is hard to get an objective opinion on its flaws. However the above was my opinion and finding on it, over a 4 year ownership period, as was the finding of petrol head friends (two mates also had S2Ks).
Absolutely. All of this internet nonsense is no replacement for you personally reviewing the car by the seat of your pants, after all these are all just opinions – and who is to say that my car, and that of my friends (despite being bought new, and not modified) were “badly set up” or non geo’d examples which might have been improved ?. I know not. Just make sure you get enough time in the drivers seat of one to form your own opinion as well as having it mechanically appraised before you stump up your hard earned for one. With regard to the ham fisted techniques, this goes without saying on any transition from FWD to RWD, you would need to adjust driving style.
This is your opinion so I am not about to argue. However I would add that personally I have driven a lot of big engined cars, and various different sports cars, I found the S2000’s handling characteristics to be different to many of them, and not always in a good way.
In summation – for 4K I would definitely go and look at one, the S2000 is in many ways a great car. It does have its flaws though, and I would hate someone to accept this internet derived “its only idiots that crash them, Im a good driver and therefore the S2000 is a fine handling vehicle”- I am afraid that more consideration than that is required, despite what the cars loyal following might tell you. It’s a good car, and is more than the sum of its parts, but its handling is far from its best feature and warrants a warning.
All of the above is of course just my opinion … go drive one, and make sure you get the top down !.
R.
Hasbeen said:
Braddo they are not more twitchy than a Exige or Boxster, but they do move quickly at the limit
Personally I don’t agree with this – I have not driven an Exige, although I have passengered several times in a well sorted one (still the quickest point to point experience of my life to date), I therefore cannot comment on this. The Boxster, and Boxster S I have driven on several occasions and the way that the Boxster grips and indeed begins to unload that grip at the limit of adhesion is completely different to the way in which the S2000 does so. Without trying to accurately describe something you should “feel” through finger tip feed back and the seat of your pants, in prose – the best I can do is to tell you that when pressing on in the Boxster the car felt fluid and and trustworthy, unless I sawed at the wheel (in which case the car responded less gracefully) the car could be made to dance and gave good feedback on the loading of its corners, which allowed me to search its performance envelope that little bit more.The S2000 by comparison, never *really* instilled that sort of trust, the closer you got to the limit the more and more you got the sense that you needed more feedback but were receiving it with little nuggets filtered out. Even when keeping inputs smooth and being careful not to unbalance the car, setting it up for corners, and monitoring weight transfer it felt like the car was doing my bidding but against its wishes, there was always a nagging doubt that it might bite. Let me suffix this by saying that I never crashed mine, I span it several times on tracks/airfield days when exploring power oversteer with an instructor, and I had a couple of big moments on the road whilst driving “enthusiastically” but not aggressively. I should also say that I had some really engaging drives in the car – to a certain level and in the dry the car does gel, it just always felt to me that past a certain point the car began to feel ragged and I didn’t enjoy the drive. In the wet, all bets were off completely – but then as others have said, I wouldn’t attempt to drive any sports car fast in the wet so this was less of a problem and more a case of being on high alert for anything that might unsettle the car in normal driving. Likewise as I stated previously – for me, the car didn’t feel easily recoverable if there was a “moment” because the car snapped quickly into oversteer and there never seemed to be enough time to apply enough corrective lock (its also worthy of note for me, that the various moments I witnessed or read about from fellow owners tended not to be “tank slappers” where overcorrection was the problem – it all tended to happen in one big violent transition into oversteer which there wasn’t enough time or lock available to correct – this underlines that even in slow speed accidents that the problem was the speed with which it broke away and the lack of feedback available to the driver up unto that point).
Hasbeen said:
, or when the limit is induced by clumsy throttle/wheel application. They are on wide rubber, often quite stick as well, so of course the high grip limit gives a quick breakaway.
This is by far and away the biggest problem when trying to form a subjective opinion of the S2000 – especially so on the internet. No one likes to have their favourite car “insulted”, and I can understand the vitriol with which the S2K is defended, in many other ways it’s a very very good car. However the notion that its “bad drivers”, or “people transitioning to their first RWD from FWD and not understanding RWD”, or “People driving it like a tt, instead of showing it respect” etc etc is just not true, or objective. Don’t take my word for this, Google and research the car, and read a cross section of motoring reviews. I am not suggesting the S2000 is a widow maker, the handling is not *that* much of an issue. However I am suggesting that for whatever reason the S2000 does not instil as much confidence in the driver as its peer cars might, and that the handling can be snappy at the limit, which is a problem in a car which is a little light on steering feel / feedback. This is what makes me feel that the S2000 is compromised as a sports car. I say this having driven many cars which I knew to have had reputations as widow makers, or that I knew to be “a handful” (The Tuscan Speed 6 I had a few blasts in was indeed “all martial and no art” at times to my mind, but it was still a very enjoyable brute, and I felt confident in what it was doing, when it was doing it).
The S2000 has a very loyal following, to its credit. I think this is one of the reasons why it is hard to get an objective opinion on its flaws. However the above was my opinion and finding on it, over a 4 year ownership period, as was the finding of petrol head friends (two mates also had S2Ks).
Hasbeen said:
One of the cars problems is that it's a Honda. Many people who would never even consider a Lotus or Porsche think a Honda is suitable for "normal" people. With todays prices, in the US, doting dads are buying the things as a fashion accessory for their college kids.
I believe there is some credence in this – people “expect” a Honda to be safe, reliable, bullet proof. I think many also equate the S2K to an “MX5’s bigger brother” and expect the same benign handling traits when in fact the S2000 simply isn’t the same animal at all. Personally I think it has more in common with the Elise than it does with the MX5, it is a harder more focussed car. This probably adds to the “surprise” that the handling might spring on someone. Hasbeen said:
You should go drive one, but don't expect it to respond to hot hatch techniques, those are too ham fisted for an S.
Absolutely. All of this internet nonsense is no replacement for you personally reviewing the car by the seat of your pants, after all these are all just opinions – and who is to say that my car, and that of my friends (despite being bought new, and not modified) were “badly set up” or non geo’d examples which might have been improved ?. I know not. Just make sure you get enough time in the drivers seat of one to form your own opinion as well as having it mechanically appraised before you stump up your hard earned for one. With regard to the ham fisted techniques, this goes without saying on any transition from FWD to RWD, you would need to adjust driving style.
Hasbeen said:
Here in Oz, where a high percentage of our kids had rear drive large engined old Holdens or Ford Falcons, often V8s, as their first cars, the S is nothing special, & holds no fears.
This is your opinion so I am not about to argue. However I would add that personally I have driven a lot of big engined cars, and various different sports cars, I found the S2000’s handling characteristics to be different to many of them, and not always in a good way.
In summation – for 4K I would definitely go and look at one, the S2000 is in many ways a great car. It does have its flaws though, and I would hate someone to accept this internet derived “its only idiots that crash them, Im a good driver and therefore the S2000 is a fine handling vehicle”- I am afraid that more consideration than that is required, despite what the cars loyal following might tell you. It’s a good car, and is more than the sum of its parts, but its handling is far from its best feature and warrants a warning.
All of the above is of course just my opinion … go drive one, and make sure you get the top down !.
R.
Edited by M@verick on Wednesday 19th September 11:21
Mark Smith said:
They're a nice car but I saw one demolish itself when it spun at Brands Hatch on a trackday. The back end let go and it hit the pit wall at approaching 100 mph. It made a right mess of the car. It put me off S2000's
That said, any car spinning into a wall at 100mph is not going to come out looking pretty. And no car is impervious to the laws of physics or road conditions that can cause a spin either.Mark Smith said:
They're a nice car but I saw one demolish itself when it spun at Brands Hatch on a trackday. The back end let go and it hit the pit wall at approaching 100 mph. It made a right mess of the car. It put me off S2000's
My only 'proper' accident was in my old S2000 - punted some old Corsa from behind when he stopped at a completely clear roundabout. Made a right mess of the Corsa, but the S2000 only needed a new bumper and the lower front chassis cross-member had a slight kink in it. No damage to headlights, radiator, bonnet etc...Was very impressed - felt and sounded like a proper bang, reduced his boot to a postage stamp yet the S soaked it up...
Good post M@verick, I agree with most of it.
I also agree it is hard to put these things into a shortish post.
I will mention that when I head off for a 1000Km drive on our less bussy country roads I usually reach for my TR7. It can waffle down the road at legal speeds, requiring little concentration, either on driving, or avoidance of driving faster than I meant to, with licence loosing consequences. It's handling is fun in the slower stuff, & it's torque gives effortless hill climbing, on long trips.
If it is a trip on main roads, I will reach for the big engined TR8, or the S2000, usually the S, as driven reasonably it attracts less attention, but can still pass a tourist in his Land Cruiser, with caravan attached quite quickly when required. I avoid long trips in the S as the concentration it demands makes me tired & cranky after anything over about 4 hours.
I also disagree with all the talk of 2Lb tyre pressure making a huge difference in handling, in an S or anything else. Here is why.
Mid 60s again, I was racing an old Brabham. A mate was driving basically the same car. Mine was FJ3 62, his FJ6 62. The only difference, his had a 1500cc Cosworth, & mine an 1100cc. His had heavier drive shafts, & quill shafts, [axles] to handle the extra power.
After a fairly major prang his wife threatened to leave him, if he raced again. No one would buy the repaired, but unraced car, not knowing if it was fixed properly. He asked me to drive it for him at a major "Gold Star" meeting, to prove the repairs.
I had my own car entered in the same race, & was given permission to practice both cars. In the first damp practice session his was dreadful, 6 seconds slower than mine, & all over the place. I pussyfooted about for a while, then came in before I bent the thing.
When we checked the thing between sessions we found a few mistakes in the repairs. It was 1.5" longer on one side than the other. 2" higher in ride height than it should have been, & the rear castor was too high. Unfortunately this was mostly mostly suspension bits that were not right. We could not correct much of this, so just did the little we could.
My very knowledgeable mate said, "It's a Brabham. Drive it quick enough & it will handle like a Brabham".
The second session was almost dry. I set a time in my car, then jumped into the other one. My mate was right, [again]. Driven fast enough into corners it remembered it was a Brabham, & handled almost nicely. I got 5Th fastest practice time, ahead of quite a few F1s, & ultimately took 3Rd in the race the next day, when quite a few cars attacked fences & the like.
After correcting the wishbones & some coil over mounting points the car was excellent, & sold quickly. I think it was this drive that earned me the offer of an F1 Brabham drive the next year.
However it did prove that a car can be a long way from ideal set up, & still be quick, if the basics are right. This is also shown when cars with more than a little damage can continue racing very quickly, although now a long way the ideal set up. I believe it is important to have something right while you are learning it, but you can get away with far less once used to it.
I also agree it is hard to put these things into a shortish post.
I will mention that when I head off for a 1000Km drive on our less bussy country roads I usually reach for my TR7. It can waffle down the road at legal speeds, requiring little concentration, either on driving, or avoidance of driving faster than I meant to, with licence loosing consequences. It's handling is fun in the slower stuff, & it's torque gives effortless hill climbing, on long trips.
If it is a trip on main roads, I will reach for the big engined TR8, or the S2000, usually the S, as driven reasonably it attracts less attention, but can still pass a tourist in his Land Cruiser, with caravan attached quite quickly when required. I avoid long trips in the S as the concentration it demands makes me tired & cranky after anything over about 4 hours.
I also disagree with all the talk of 2Lb tyre pressure making a huge difference in handling, in an S or anything else. Here is why.
Mid 60s again, I was racing an old Brabham. A mate was driving basically the same car. Mine was FJ3 62, his FJ6 62. The only difference, his had a 1500cc Cosworth, & mine an 1100cc. His had heavier drive shafts, & quill shafts, [axles] to handle the extra power.
After a fairly major prang his wife threatened to leave him, if he raced again. No one would buy the repaired, but unraced car, not knowing if it was fixed properly. He asked me to drive it for him at a major "Gold Star" meeting, to prove the repairs.
I had my own car entered in the same race, & was given permission to practice both cars. In the first damp practice session his was dreadful, 6 seconds slower than mine, & all over the place. I pussyfooted about for a while, then came in before I bent the thing.
When we checked the thing between sessions we found a few mistakes in the repairs. It was 1.5" longer on one side than the other. 2" higher in ride height than it should have been, & the rear castor was too high. Unfortunately this was mostly mostly suspension bits that were not right. We could not correct much of this, so just did the little we could.
My very knowledgeable mate said, "It's a Brabham. Drive it quick enough & it will handle like a Brabham".
The second session was almost dry. I set a time in my car, then jumped into the other one. My mate was right, [again]. Driven fast enough into corners it remembered it was a Brabham, & handled almost nicely. I got 5Th fastest practice time, ahead of quite a few F1s, & ultimately took 3Rd in the race the next day, when quite a few cars attacked fences & the like.
After correcting the wishbones & some coil over mounting points the car was excellent, & sold quickly. I think it was this drive that earned me the offer of an F1 Brabham drive the next year.
However it did prove that a car can be a long way from ideal set up, & still be quick, if the basics are right. This is also shown when cars with more than a little damage can continue racing very quickly, although now a long way the ideal set up. I believe it is important to have something right while you are learning it, but you can get away with far less once used to it.
Interesting thread, and one that I think validates the idea of the S2000 being a PH Hero - in one sense at least. I feel that if a car has a strong love/hate response, then the chances are it's a car that will attract a cult follow - as the S2000 has - and become a classic. It clearly has character, it clearly has idiosyncrasies, and because of this it's not everyone's cup of tea. The fact that people have spent so long arguing the toss for and against the S2000 shows that its a car that captures the attention and drives a fair amount of passionate debate - just like the Toyota GT86 has. Plenty of people saying 'love it' and plenty of people saying 'hate it', and then going to great lengths to explain why and argue with the opposing view. Most other cars we'd say one thing or the other and we'd accept that different people like different cars.
Personally speaking, I love them and my limited experience of driving a couple sticks in the mind as being very good. Like many on the thread here, its a car I've always fancied owning, but have been put off by the excessive insurance. Having said that, toward the end of this year I will have some money freed up and I see no reason why not to invest in 9000 rpms of Honda engineering - short of another car coming along and distracting me from the S2000, as sometimes they do...
Personally speaking, I love them and my limited experience of driving a couple sticks in the mind as being very good. Like many on the thread here, its a car I've always fancied owning, but have been put off by the excessive insurance. Having said that, toward the end of this year I will have some money freed up and I see no reason why not to invest in 9000 rpms of Honda engineering - short of another car coming along and distracting me from the S2000, as sometimes they do...
Cheers Hasbeen 
, and apologies for cross quoting you from the other thread, I didnt really think about that as i cut and pasted my diatribe.
I hope it came across in my post but I agree with much of your comments as well - given your history I suspect you are one of the few PH'ers amongst our number that really can claim to have gotten the best out of an idiosyncratic car like the S2000 as you clearly have the skills to actually drive it on the limit.
Enjoyed reading the anecdote about testing the Brabham also, top work !.
R.
, and apologies for cross quoting you from the other thread, I didnt really think about that as i cut and pasted my diatribe. I hope it came across in my post but I agree with much of your comments as well - given your history I suspect you are one of the few PH'ers amongst our number that really can claim to have gotten the best out of an idiosyncratic car like the S2000 as you clearly have the skills to actually drive it on the limit.
Enjoyed reading the anecdote about testing the Brabham also, top work !.
R.
Hasbeen said:
...
When we checked the thing between sessions we found a few mistakes in the repairs. It was 1.5" longer on one side than the other. 2" higher in ride height than it should have been, & the rear castor was too high. Unfortunately this was mostly mostly suspension bits that were not right. We could not correct much of this, so just did the little we could.
...
When we checked the thing between sessions we found a few mistakes in the repairs. It was 1.5" longer on one side than the other. 2" higher in ride height than it should have been, & the rear castor was too high. Unfortunately this was mostly mostly suspension bits that were not right. We could not correct much of this, so just did the little we could.
...
It seems there has been considerable scope to improve the standards of race car preparation over the years!My dad had a couple of MGBs in the late 60s/early 70s (in Queensland) and at one time dropped in an ex-race engine that only ever ran like a dog. It turns out it had stuff like mismatching pistons and different bores, valve sizes etc - if something blew the previous owner just bunged in the minimum required to get the engine going again (e.g. rebore one cylinder to replace one blown piston).
We used to have an S2000 in our specialist car hire club. Not only was it one of our most popular cars but several members went out and bought one for themselves after driving it. Mechanically it was absolutely bulletproof and from memory our most reliable car closely followed by the NSX (which had done over 200,000 hard miles and was still perfect).
The pro's of an S2000:-
Absolute reliability
One of the best gearboxes....period
Rev happy engine has long legs
Excellent running costs compared to its performance
Easy hood operation
Amazing engine and chassis
Con's:-
Practicality
Slightly cramp cabin
High oil consumption if v tech used a lot
Mk1 does not reward poor drivers and has a twitchy back end...my type of car
Mk 2 easier to drive but still tail happy
Can get caught out at low revs when accelerating due to lack of torque
I wouldn't hesitate to buy an S2000 but I have a child so still need practicality. I think of it as a car with a Jekyll and Hyde personality. Potters around town all day at low revs with no problems then get to the open road and crack it open to 9000rpm - very rewarding. Most memorable moment was Isle of Skye, roof down, beautiful sunny morning stunning blacktop roads and charging the S2000 upto 140.
The pro's of an S2000:-
Absolute reliability
One of the best gearboxes....period
Rev happy engine has long legs
Excellent running costs compared to its performance
Easy hood operation
Amazing engine and chassis
Con's:-
Practicality
Slightly cramp cabin
High oil consumption if v tech used a lot
Mk1 does not reward poor drivers and has a twitchy back end...my type of car
Mk 2 easier to drive but still tail happy
Can get caught out at low revs when accelerating due to lack of torque
I wouldn't hesitate to buy an S2000 but I have a child so still need practicality. I think of it as a car with a Jekyll and Hyde personality. Potters around town all day at low revs with no problems then get to the open road and crack it open to 9000rpm - very rewarding. Most memorable moment was Isle of Skye, roof down, beautiful sunny morning stunning blacktop roads and charging the S2000 upto 140.
forzaminardi said:
Plenty of people saying 'love it' and plenty of people saying 'hate it', and then going to great lengths to explain why and argue with the opposing view. Most other cars we'd say one thing or the other and we'd accept that different people like different cars.
In reality, that isn't what is happening though. The S2000 isn't as marmite as owners want it to be. There are people saying "love it", and there are people saying "Yeah, good car, but....". The latter isn't hate, but it is seen that way by some. If you don't love it you must hate it. You only have to look at S2ki or the like to see this fundamentalism in action....you can be shot for simply saying that a Boxster is a great drivers car
It was a truly great engine in a pretty good chassis at the time. Now it is an affordable classic.
That final couple of thousand rpm was a great experience, but not *quite* exciting enough to make up for the perhaps a bit of a dull and awkward "ordinary" driving experience. And that of course is what is was designed for - to be able to drive to work listening to the radio...and then at a weekend crack open the hood and give it full beans.
A car that feels fast at 40mph....is a little bit tiring after a while. Some cars are dramatic even when stood still. But there aren't many cars that give you everything at all speeds exactly when you want them. At least not at a sensible price.
So...nice car. But other nice cars exist. That doesn't mean I hate it, I just don't love it as much as you
I've read the thread and there are some great contributions. For me the S2000 just puts a whopping great smile on your face and thats what its all about surely. Looks great, sounds great and goes like the clappers.
Beautiful sunny day here today and nipped out, dropping my 8 yr old daughter to a party (busier social life than me!), had the roof down and for the money I don't think you can get a better car.
Beautiful sunny day here today and nipped out, dropping my 8 yr old daughter to a party (busier social life than me!), had the roof down and for the money I don't think you can get a better car.
keith333 said:
I've read the thread and there are some great contributions. For me the S2000 just puts a whopping great smile on your face and thats what its all about surely. Looks great, sounds great and goes like the clappers.
Beautiful sunny day here today and nipped out, dropping my 8 yr old daughter to a party (busier social life than me!), had the roof down and for the money I don't think you can get a better car.
ThisBeautiful sunny day here today and nipped out, dropping my 8 yr old daughter to a party (busier social life than me!), had the roof down and for the money I don't think you can get a better car.
Makes me want
keith333 said:
I've read the thread and there are some great contributions. For me the S2000 just puts a whopping great smile on your face and thats what its all about surely. Looks great, sounds great and goes like the clappers.
Beautiful sunny day here today and nipped out, dropping my 8 yr old daughter to a party (busier social life than me!), had the roof down and for the money I don't think you can get a better car.
bang on. Never been a time I've had it out that it hasn't made me burst out laughing at least once at how fBeautiful sunny day here today and nipped out, dropping my 8 yr old daughter to a party (busier social life than me!), had the roof down and for the money I don't think you can get a better car.
king nutty it can be when you let those 9000rpms loose. I'm sure there are cooler cars, louder cars, gruntier cars etc but it's the best buzz you'll get for less than 10 grand. And then I made the mistake of watching this video 'review' thing on Youtube...I don't think this guy has a clue or any real love for cars, it's depressing that he gets to drive them all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO4_XzePbg4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO4_XzePbg4
M@verick said:
This really is a car that divides opinion isnt it ?.
I lose count of the number of times i have read similar threads where one camp states "its a great car", then another states "the handling is compromised so it isnt" then the initial camp replies in vitriolic style "its actually a great handling car, its just very *focussed*. It is only people that cant drive a RWD car that say its not an epic sports car" (normally a smilie is attached to the latter presumably to project in some way that the statement just made isnt quite as insulting about the driving ability of the person they dont know, whom they have just questioned the manhood of, over the internet).
For the record, I think the S2000 is a good car, but it wouldnt feature as a "PH Hero" for me, its nearly, but not quite there. Here is the soporifically lengthy response i posted last time this argument did the rounds - when a prospective buyer was asking for advice on the "would you" thread, and the argument depicted above (and in this thread) was taking place.
R.
Could not have put it better myself!I lose count of the number of times i have read similar threads where one camp states "its a great car", then another states "the handling is compromised so it isnt" then the initial camp replies in vitriolic style "its actually a great handling car, its just very *focussed*. It is only people that cant drive a RWD car that say its not an epic sports car" (normally a smilie is attached to the latter presumably to project in some way that the statement just made isnt quite as insulting about the driving ability of the person they dont know, whom they have just questioned the manhood of, over the internet).
For the record, I think the S2000 is a good car, but it wouldnt feature as a "PH Hero" for me, its nearly, but not quite there. Here is the soporifically lengthy response i posted last time this argument did the rounds - when a prospective buyer was asking for advice on the "would you" thread, and the argument depicted above (and in this thread) was taking place.
R.
M@verick said:
I don’t particularly want to start picking apart another forum users post, and I fully respect that everyone has opinions, none more or less valid than the next – so don’t take this as negative, but I thought in the interests of giving Braddo a prospective purchaser of a used S2K, a balanced perspective on them, as an ex long term owner of an 02 S2K I should probably comment on the post below.
The S2000 by comparison, never *really* instilled that sort of trust, the closer you got to the limit the more and more you got the sense that you needed more feedback but were receiving it with little nuggets filtered out. Even when keeping inputs smooth and being careful not to unbalance the car, setting it up for corners, and monitoring weight transfer it felt like the car was doing my bidding but against its wishes, there was always a nagging doubt that it might bite. Let me suffix this by saying that I never crashed mine, I span it several times on tracks/airfield days when exploring power oversteer with an instructor, and I had a couple of big moments on the road whilst driving “enthusiastically” but not aggressively. I should also say that I had some really engaging drives in the car – to a certain level and in the dry the car does gel, it just always felt to me that past a certain point the car began to feel ragged and I didn’t enjoy the drive. In the wet, all bets were off completely – but then as others have said, I wouldn’t attempt to drive any sports car fast in the wet so this was less of a problem and more a case of being on high alert for anything that might unsettle the car in normal driving. Likewise as I stated previously – for me, the car didn’t feel easily recoverable if there was a “moment” because the car snapped quickly into oversteer and there never seemed to be enough time to apply enough corrective lock (its also worthy of note for me, that the various moments I witnessed or read about from fellow owners tended not to be “tank slappers” where overcorrection was the problem – it all tended to happen in one big violent transition into oversteer which there wasn’t enough time or lock available to correct – this underlines that even in slow speed accidents that the problem was the speed with which it broke away and the lack of feedback available to the driver up unto that point).
t, instead of showing it respect” etc etc is just not true, or objective. Don’t take my word for this, Google and research the car, and read a cross section of motoring reviews.
I am not suggesting the S2000 is a widow maker, the handling is not *that* much of an issue. However I am suggesting that for whatever reason the S2000 does not instil as much confidence in the driver as its peer cars might, and that the handling can be snappy at the limit, which is a problem in a car which is a little light on steering feel / feedback. This is what makes me feel that the S2000 is compromised as a sports car. I say this having driven many cars which I knew to have had reputations as widow makers, or that I knew to be “a handful” (The Tuscan Speed 6 I had a few blasts in was indeed “all martial and no art” at times to my mind, but it was still a very enjoyable brute, and I felt confident in what it was doing, when it was doing it).
The S2000 has a very loyal following, to its credit. I think this is one of the reasons why it is hard to get an objective opinion on its flaws. However the above was my opinion and finding on it, over a 4 year ownership period, as was the finding of petrol head friends (two mates also had S2Ks).
Absolutely. All of this internet nonsense is no replacement for you personally reviewing the car by the seat of your pants, after all these are all just opinions – and who is to say that my car, and that of my friends (despite being bought new, and not modified) were “badly set up” or non geo’d examples which might have been improved ?. I know not. Just make sure you get enough time in the drivers seat of one to form your own opinion as well as having it mechanically appraised before you stump up your hard earned for one. With regard to the ham fisted techniques, this goes without saying on any transition from FWD to RWD, you would need to adjust driving style.
This is your opinion so I am not about to argue. However I would add that personally I have driven a lot of big engined cars, and various different sports cars, I found the S2000’s handling characteristics to be different to many of them, and not always in a good way.
In summation – for 4K I would definitely go and look at one, the S2000 is in many ways a great car. It does have its flaws though, and I would hate someone to accept this internet derived “its only idiots that crash them, Im a good driver and therefore the S2000 is a fine handling vehicle”- I am afraid that more consideration than that is required, despite what the cars loyal following might tell you. It’s a good car, and is more than the sum of its parts, but its handling is far from its best feature and warrants a warning.
All of the above is of course just my opinion … go drive one, and make sure you get the top down !.
R.
Hasbeen said:
Braddo they are not more twitchy than a Exige or Boxster, but they do move quickly at the limit
Personally I don’t agree with this – I have not driven an Exige, although I have passengered several times in a well sorted one (still the quickest point to point experience of my life to date), I therefore cannot comment on this. The Boxster, and Boxster S I have driven on several occasions and the way that the Boxster grips and indeed begins to unload that grip at the limit of adhesion is completely different to the way in which the S2000 does so. Without trying to accurately describe something you should “feel” through finger tip feed back and the seat of your pants, in prose – the best I can do is to tell you that when pressing on in the Boxster the car felt fluid and and trustworthy, unless I sawed at the wheel (in which case the car responded less gracefully) the car could be made to dance and gave good feedback on the loading of its corners, which allowed me to search its performance envelope that little bit more.The S2000 by comparison, never *really* instilled that sort of trust, the closer you got to the limit the more and more you got the sense that you needed more feedback but were receiving it with little nuggets filtered out. Even when keeping inputs smooth and being careful not to unbalance the car, setting it up for corners, and monitoring weight transfer it felt like the car was doing my bidding but against its wishes, there was always a nagging doubt that it might bite. Let me suffix this by saying that I never crashed mine, I span it several times on tracks/airfield days when exploring power oversteer with an instructor, and I had a couple of big moments on the road whilst driving “enthusiastically” but not aggressively. I should also say that I had some really engaging drives in the car – to a certain level and in the dry the car does gel, it just always felt to me that past a certain point the car began to feel ragged and I didn’t enjoy the drive. In the wet, all bets were off completely – but then as others have said, I wouldn’t attempt to drive any sports car fast in the wet so this was less of a problem and more a case of being on high alert for anything that might unsettle the car in normal driving. Likewise as I stated previously – for me, the car didn’t feel easily recoverable if there was a “moment” because the car snapped quickly into oversteer and there never seemed to be enough time to apply enough corrective lock (its also worthy of note for me, that the various moments I witnessed or read about from fellow owners tended not to be “tank slappers” where overcorrection was the problem – it all tended to happen in one big violent transition into oversteer which there wasn’t enough time or lock available to correct – this underlines that even in slow speed accidents that the problem was the speed with which it broke away and the lack of feedback available to the driver up unto that point).
Hasbeen said:
, or when the limit is induced by clumsy throttle/wheel application. They are on wide rubber, often quite stick as well, so of course the high grip limit gives a quick breakaway.
This is by far and away the biggest problem when trying to form a subjective opinion of the S2000 – especially so on the internet. No one likes to have their favourite car “insulted”, and I can understand the vitriol with which the S2K is defended, in many other ways it’s a very very good car. However the notion that its “bad drivers”, or “people transitioning to their first RWD from FWD and not understanding RWD”, or “People driving it like a tt, instead of showing it respect” etc etc is just not true, or objective. Don’t take my word for this, Google and research the car, and read a cross section of motoring reviews. I am not suggesting the S2000 is a widow maker, the handling is not *that* much of an issue. However I am suggesting that for whatever reason the S2000 does not instil as much confidence in the driver as its peer cars might, and that the handling can be snappy at the limit, which is a problem in a car which is a little light on steering feel / feedback. This is what makes me feel that the S2000 is compromised as a sports car. I say this having driven many cars which I knew to have had reputations as widow makers, or that I knew to be “a handful” (The Tuscan Speed 6 I had a few blasts in was indeed “all martial and no art” at times to my mind, but it was still a very enjoyable brute, and I felt confident in what it was doing, when it was doing it).
The S2000 has a very loyal following, to its credit. I think this is one of the reasons why it is hard to get an objective opinion on its flaws. However the above was my opinion and finding on it, over a 4 year ownership period, as was the finding of petrol head friends (two mates also had S2Ks).
Hasbeen said:
One of the cars problems is that it's a Honda. Many people who would never even consider a Lotus or Porsche think a Honda is suitable for "normal" people. With todays prices, in the US, doting dads are buying the things as a fashion accessory for their college kids.
I believe there is some credence in this – people “expect” a Honda to be safe, reliable, bullet proof. I think many also equate the S2K to an “MX5’s bigger brother” and expect the same benign handling traits when in fact the S2000 simply isn’t the same animal at all. Personally I think it has more in common with the Elise than it does with the MX5, it is a harder more focussed car. This probably adds to the “surprise” that the handling might spring on someone. Hasbeen said:
You should go drive one, but don't expect it to respond to hot hatch techniques, those are too ham fisted for an S.
Absolutely. All of this internet nonsense is no replacement for you personally reviewing the car by the seat of your pants, after all these are all just opinions – and who is to say that my car, and that of my friends (despite being bought new, and not modified) were “badly set up” or non geo’d examples which might have been improved ?. I know not. Just make sure you get enough time in the drivers seat of one to form your own opinion as well as having it mechanically appraised before you stump up your hard earned for one. With regard to the ham fisted techniques, this goes without saying on any transition from FWD to RWD, you would need to adjust driving style.
Hasbeen said:
Here in Oz, where a high percentage of our kids had rear drive large engined old Holdens or Ford Falcons, often V8s, as their first cars, the S is nothing special, & holds no fears.
This is your opinion so I am not about to argue. However I would add that personally I have driven a lot of big engined cars, and various different sports cars, I found the S2000’s handling characteristics to be different to many of them, and not always in a good way.
In summation – for 4K I would definitely go and look at one, the S2000 is in many ways a great car. It does have its flaws though, and I would hate someone to accept this internet derived “its only idiots that crash them, Im a good driver and therefore the S2000 is a fine handling vehicle”- I am afraid that more consideration than that is required, despite what the cars loyal following might tell you. It’s a good car, and is more than the sum of its parts, but its handling is far from its best feature and warrants a warning.
All of the above is of course just my opinion … go drive one, and make sure you get the top down !.
R.
Edited by M@verick on Wednesday 19th September 11:21
Its the on the limit breakaway and feedback upto that point that is the problem!
Im fully aware that a hard to drive car can be a quick one in the right hands but the S2000 is too snappy in its sometimes sudden breakaway at the rear.
I never said I couldnt control it, It happened to me once as I was testing what would happen, I was saying that it just should not be like this.
petrolhead888 said:
Could not have put it better myself!
Its the on the limit breakaway and feedback upto that point that is the problem!
Im fully aware that a hard to drive car can be a quick one in the right hands but the S2000 is too snappy in its sometimes sudden breakaway at the rear.
I never said I couldnt control it, It happened to me once as I was testing what would happen, I was saying that it just should not be like this.
I'd like to second your opinion. It does bite. Its the on the limit breakaway and feedback upto that point that is the problem!
Im fully aware that a hard to drive car can be a quick one in the right hands but the S2000 is too snappy in its sometimes sudden breakaway at the rear.
I never said I couldnt control it, It happened to me once as I was testing what would happen, I was saying that it just should not be like this.
But in a sense that is a handling trait that makes it a challenge to master. I for one find it "exciting" in lack of a better word.
And compared to other cars that delivers mild understeer and "safe" (read dull) handling caracteristics when pushed to the limit, I'd rather have it the S2000 way.
Bear in mind, I never push the car beyond 8/10's on public roads, that might be saying something.
I found that 225/40/18 up front and 245/35/18 in the rear cures some of the snap oversteer, but makes it a wee bit more sluggish accelleration wise. Still spat me off the circuit though..
(Check out my youtube clip on page 12..)Food for thought,- when they released the CR model it all went "back to my roots" as the suspension was stiffer than the AP2 versions, shorter steering rack and stiffer sway bars etc.. Thing is the AP1 isn't far off this spec, and costs far less!
I'd say its a great car that could have been even greater given some attention to the steering feel and suspension set up.
But you could always alter the geo and fit other tires to tweak it to your liking..
Good weekend to everyone!
took mine down to TGM Racing for a spring clean yesterday. Petronas Syntium oil change., Motul brake fluid, Stop Tech pads and discs, new plugs and Geo. Then, just to make sure it was all running nice, Tom took me out in it for a test drive on his "special" road to show me what someone who really knows how to drive can do with it. This is an experience I highly recommend and almost worth the price of the service alone! Experiencing a really tight s2000 driven at 10/10ths is quite eye opening.
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