2 stroke oil in diesel? Really??!
Discussion
Nigel Worc's said:
DervHead said:
GC8 said:
I will accept that, but I will add that it will be nothing like red chemical marker where drops will dye huge storage tanks. Its a little like the tracer dye that the NRA use to mark rivers.
It will present no issue at all if you are stopped by the Revenue Men, but if it really can add a noticeable red tinge to a tankful of DERV then it may cause an issue with over-zealous and under-informed police officers if they decide to make a half-arsed roadside check (getting common now, I believe).
Any non-vegetable based alternative road fuel is subject to tax (the veggie power being eligible for a 2,500 litre pa exemption for personal use). As such I'd imagine HMRC would be just as interested in the evasion of duty on 2 stroke as they are on other forms of road fuel. True the amounts are trifling in the grand scheme of things - a few tens of pence every four fill ups for 250ml 2 stroke per tank - but evasion is evasion and they tend to come down pretty hard vis a vis penalties. Just a thought...It will present no issue at all if you are stopped by the Revenue Men, but if it really can add a noticeable red tinge to a tankful of DERV then it may cause an issue with over-zealous and under-informed police officers if they decide to make a half-arsed roadside check (getting common now, I believe).
2 stroke is intended as a fuel additive, they going to be chasing reddex next ?
DervHead said:
Good point. I was going by the fact that all hydrocarbon oils are listed in various weights as eligible for duty by HMRC when used as part of the fuel in a road going vehicle. I might email them to ask; you've gotten me curious now.
Surely they'd have realised this with two stroke mopeds? At least some (real cheapo/old ones) must need to use oil in fuel (whether mixed by user or a dispensing tank topped up)?I've come across this :
http://www.fuelexpert.co.za/2strokeoilindiesel.php
It suggests that adding 2 stroke oil may do the opposite of what we're hoping for.
There are a lot of arguments, mostly on motoring forums, about whether or not to add 2 stroke oil to diesel powered vehicles. The main argument is that this will improve the lubricity of the fuel, particularly low sulphur (50ppm) diesel.
Sulphur occurs naturally in oil. It is undesirable for various reasons. The main reason is that the sulphur from the exhaust pipe forms sulphuric acid in the atmosphere which results in acid rain. In the vehicle it pollutes the engine oil reducing its life. Using a low sulphur diesel reduces both the environmental pollution and the pollution of engine oil. In order to produce low sulphur diesel, the sulphur has to be removed and the process that removes the sulphur reduces the lubricity of the diesel. Diesel pumps and injectors rely on this to keep them lubricated.
Should I add 2 Stroke Oil to my diesel to improve its lubricity?
In short, you shouldn't. 2 Stroke Oil is designed for 2 stroke motorcycle engines, not 4 stroke vehicles. Vehicle manufacturers and fuel refining companies all agree that running 2 Stroke Oil in fuel is likely to cause complications and there have been reports of engine failures due to 2 Stroke Oil sludging up valves and injectors. As fuel refineries have produced lower sulphur diesel, so too have they added lubrication substitutes to the new diesels to the point that lubrication is now even higher than that of high sulphur diesel.
The vehicle manufacturers don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, the fuel companies don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, and the 2 Stroke Oil manufacturers don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, so why would you put 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel?
Better lubricity, cleaner burning fuel, cleaner oil and cleaner air means there is no reason for any vehicle to run 500ppm diesel instead of 50ppm, nor to add 2 Stroke Oil to aid in lubrication.
http://www.fuelexpert.co.za/2strokeoilindiesel.php
It suggests that adding 2 stroke oil may do the opposite of what we're hoping for.
There are a lot of arguments, mostly on motoring forums, about whether or not to add 2 stroke oil to diesel powered vehicles. The main argument is that this will improve the lubricity of the fuel, particularly low sulphur (50ppm) diesel.
Sulphur occurs naturally in oil. It is undesirable for various reasons. The main reason is that the sulphur from the exhaust pipe forms sulphuric acid in the atmosphere which results in acid rain. In the vehicle it pollutes the engine oil reducing its life. Using a low sulphur diesel reduces both the environmental pollution and the pollution of engine oil. In order to produce low sulphur diesel, the sulphur has to be removed and the process that removes the sulphur reduces the lubricity of the diesel. Diesel pumps and injectors rely on this to keep them lubricated.
Should I add 2 Stroke Oil to my diesel to improve its lubricity?
In short, you shouldn't. 2 Stroke Oil is designed for 2 stroke motorcycle engines, not 4 stroke vehicles. Vehicle manufacturers and fuel refining companies all agree that running 2 Stroke Oil in fuel is likely to cause complications and there have been reports of engine failures due to 2 Stroke Oil sludging up valves and injectors. As fuel refineries have produced lower sulphur diesel, so too have they added lubrication substitutes to the new diesels to the point that lubrication is now even higher than that of high sulphur diesel.
The vehicle manufacturers don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, the fuel companies don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, and the 2 Stroke Oil manufacturers don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, so why would you put 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel?
Better lubricity, cleaner burning fuel, cleaner oil and cleaner air means there is no reason for any vehicle to run 500ppm diesel instead of 50ppm, nor to add 2 Stroke Oil to aid in lubrication.
bobfett said:
DervHead said:
Good point. I was going by the fact that all hydrocarbon oils are listed in various weights as eligible for duty by HMRC when used as part of the fuel in a road going vehicle. I might email them to ask; you've gotten me curious now.
Surely they'd have realised this with two stroke mopeds? At least some (real cheapo/old ones) must need to use oil in fuel (whether mixed by user or a dispensing tank topped up)?HMRC said:
2.3 Fuel additives
Products such as fuel system cleaners, injector cleaners, fuel conditioners and biocides are considered to be fuel additives and are liable to excise duty. Any product that is added into the fuel supply of vehicles either via the filler cap or via various parts of the fuel system, for example the carburettor, is treated as a fuel additive.
The duty rate is determined by what sort of engine the product is designed to be used in. Therefore products designed for use in a diesel engine attract the heavy oil rate; products designed for an unleaded petrol engine attract the unleaded petrol rate; and products designed for use in leaded petrol engines attract the leaded petrol rate. Products designed to be multi-purpose (that is, for use in any kind of engine) attract the unleaded petrol rate.
Any product that is 100% hydrocarbon oil and is used solely for lubrication is exempt from excise duty.
SourceProducts such as fuel system cleaners, injector cleaners, fuel conditioners and biocides are considered to be fuel additives and are liable to excise duty. Any product that is added into the fuel supply of vehicles either via the filler cap or via various parts of the fuel system, for example the carburettor, is treated as a fuel additive.
The duty rate is determined by what sort of engine the product is designed to be used in. Therefore products designed for use in a diesel engine attract the heavy oil rate; products designed for an unleaded petrol engine attract the unleaded petrol rate; and products designed for use in leaded petrol engines attract the leaded petrol rate. Products designed to be multi-purpose (that is, for use in any kind of engine) attract the unleaded petrol rate.
Any product that is 100% hydrocarbon oil and is used solely for lubrication is exempt from excise duty.
Most two stroke petrol engines work on a total loss lubrication system in that the oil in the petrol is used to lubricate the engine and is then burnt as it's mixed with the petrol
So from that i presume all two stroke oil sold in this country is probably 100% hydrocarbon and in a two stroke engine it's used solely for lubrication the bottom sentence covers it
Silent1 said:
So from that i presume all two stroke oil sold in this country is probably 100% hydrocarbon and in a two stroke engine it's used solely for lubrication the bottom sentence covers it
Ah excellent find. HMRC's website is a veritable maze and the only source I could find was what I linked earlier, which didn't list the exemption. 
To be fair, as alluded above diesel fuel has ample lubricity especially now it's ~7% biodiesel. Even 1% biodiesel is amply lubricating and tests by Mercedes showed that 1% greatly enhanced fuel system lubrication and extended engine life by a wide margin compared to traditional diesel. At today's minimum 5%-7% biodiesel levels in all UK diesel pumps I can't see any real reason to add 2 stroke on top.
I use it all the time BUT in my experiance the older the vehical the better it works, modern diesel engines designed to run on modern diesel dont need it, older engine love it, in my 1980's Ford TD it makes it run quieter, smoother and gains it MPG, same in a customers W124 (both 4 cyl and 5 cyl), same in any transit Di i've ever owned (10 odd), they love it, where as another customer with an )07 citroen van says it make no differance what so ever, nor did i expect it too TBH.
On a similar vein (but still on fuel lubrication) i used to have a old MFi S1 orion in that simply would not idle properly unless i added a 200 to 1 mix of 2 stroke, in the end based on cost he ended up using half a gallon of diesel to a full tank of unleaded, smoked a bit (no more than 99% of 25 year old clunkers do) but idled and ran way smoother, obv a new set of injectors would of probably solved it but i was tasked with sorting the poor running cheaply and i did (with the less smokey 2stroke, he decided on the diesel cos he got it free), i got the idea after reading about a Merc around the world run where they added ATF to help lube the diesel pump and injectors in areas with suspect fuel supplys (mainly africa IIRC), in the orions case i assumed it lubed the injectors ??
On a similar vein (but still on fuel lubrication) i used to have a old MFi S1 orion in that simply would not idle properly unless i added a 200 to 1 mix of 2 stroke, in the end based on cost he ended up using half a gallon of diesel to a full tank of unleaded, smoked a bit (no more than 99% of 25 year old clunkers do) but idled and ran way smoother, obv a new set of injectors would of probably solved it but i was tasked with sorting the poor running cheaply and i did (with the less smokey 2stroke, he decided on the diesel cos he got it free), i got the idea after reading about a Merc around the world run where they added ATF to help lube the diesel pump and injectors in areas with suspect fuel supplys (mainly africa IIRC), in the orions case i assumed it lubed the injectors ??
Edited by S0 What on Saturday 23 August 00:28
Nigel Worc's said:
I've come across this :
http://www.fuelexpert.co.za/2strokeoilindiesel.php
It suggests that adding 2 stroke oil may do the opposite of what we're hoping for.
There are a lot of arguments, mostly on motoring forums, about whether or not to add 2 stroke oil to diesel powered vehicles. The main argument is that this will improve the lubricity of the fuel, particularly low sulphur (50ppm) diesel.
Sulphur occurs naturally in oil. It is undesirable for various reasons. The main reason is that the sulphur from the exhaust pipe forms sulphuric acid in the atmosphere which results in acid rain. In the vehicle it pollutes the engine oil reducing its life. Using a low sulphur diesel reduces both the environmental pollution and the pollution of engine oil. In order to produce low sulphur diesel, the sulphur has to be removed and the process that removes the sulphur reduces the lubricity of the diesel. Diesel pumps and injectors rely on this to keep them lubricated.
Should I add 2 Stroke Oil to my diesel to improve its lubricity?
In short, you shouldn't. 2 Stroke Oil is designed for 2 stroke motorcycle engines, not 4 stroke vehicles. Vehicle manufacturers and fuel refining companies all agree that running 2 Stroke Oil in fuel is likely to cause complications and there have been reports of engine failures due to 2 Stroke Oil sludging up valves and injectors. As fuel refineries have produced lower sulphur diesel, so too have they added lubrication substitutes to the new diesels to the point that lubrication is now even higher than that of high sulphur diesel.
The vehicle manufacturers don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, the fuel companies don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, and the 2 Stroke Oil manufacturers don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, so why would you put 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel?
Better lubricity, cleaner burning fuel, cleaner oil and cleaner air means there is no reason for any vehicle to run 500ppm diesel instead of 50ppm, nor to add 2 Stroke Oil to aid in lubrication.
I counter that with this threadhttp://www.fuelexpert.co.za/2strokeoilindiesel.php
It suggests that adding 2 stroke oil may do the opposite of what we're hoping for.
There are a lot of arguments, mostly on motoring forums, about whether or not to add 2 stroke oil to diesel powered vehicles. The main argument is that this will improve the lubricity of the fuel, particularly low sulphur (50ppm) diesel.
Sulphur occurs naturally in oil. It is undesirable for various reasons. The main reason is that the sulphur from the exhaust pipe forms sulphuric acid in the atmosphere which results in acid rain. In the vehicle it pollutes the engine oil reducing its life. Using a low sulphur diesel reduces both the environmental pollution and the pollution of engine oil. In order to produce low sulphur diesel, the sulphur has to be removed and the process that removes the sulphur reduces the lubricity of the diesel. Diesel pumps and injectors rely on this to keep them lubricated.
Should I add 2 Stroke Oil to my diesel to improve its lubricity?
In short, you shouldn't. 2 Stroke Oil is designed for 2 stroke motorcycle engines, not 4 stroke vehicles. Vehicle manufacturers and fuel refining companies all agree that running 2 Stroke Oil in fuel is likely to cause complications and there have been reports of engine failures due to 2 Stroke Oil sludging up valves and injectors. As fuel refineries have produced lower sulphur diesel, so too have they added lubrication substitutes to the new diesels to the point that lubrication is now even higher than that of high sulphur diesel.
The vehicle manufacturers don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, the fuel companies don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, and the 2 Stroke Oil manufacturers don't recommend putting 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel, so why would you put 2 Stroke Oil in your diesel?
Better lubricity, cleaner burning fuel, cleaner oil and cleaner air means there is no reason for any vehicle to run 500ppm diesel instead of 50ppm, nor to add 2 Stroke Oil to aid in lubrication.
http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76-speciality-for...
S0 What said:
I have just read what must be, to date, the most detailed research on adding 2-stroke oil to diesel:http://www.fuelexpert.co.za/2-stroke-oil-in-diesel...
Quite a read, but very interesting.
AxEgo said:
I have just read what must be, to date, the most detailed research on adding 2-stroke oil to diesel:
http://www.fuelexpert.co.za/2-stroke-oil-in-diesel...
Quite a read, but very interesting.
The key thing there is that they tested it on a modern engine.http://www.fuelexpert.co.za/2-stroke-oil-in-diesel...
Quite a read, but very interesting.
I'd be very interested if they repeated it on an 80s or 90s engine
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