RE: New Golf GTI: too little, too late?
Discussion
LaurasOtherHalf said:
For those of a certain age a golf gti used to be a status symbol, can't see that being the case now though. If you haven't got kids most folk will want something coupe-ish & if you need the 4 seats the BMW/Audi/Mercedes with which to impress your neighbours.
I think it was when a GTi was clearly distinguishable from the other cars, now in a world of S-line, M-sport, GTD etc it's hard to see the obvious difference between the top spec car from the 1.6diesel company hack, at least with a coupe or sports car it doesn't get lost in the sea of diesel rep mobilesI reckon the reason why the proportion of GTIs sold is falling, is mainly because the other golfs are so good in the range. If you think back to the 80s, the non GTI golfs were not particularly desirable. Now however, you can have a GT, a GTD, one of the clever 1.4TSIs which are all really good cars in their own right and mostly much cheaper than a GTI. Plus we cannot forget that most people have been brainwashed into buying diesels - no matter what car range you think of in the mainstream, you rarely see petrol models any more on new registrations in cars larger than superminis...
For me, if I wanted a hot hatch I would think of Renault, Ford, Vauxhall, etc. If somone suggested a golf, I'd think of a Diesel such as the GTD. I think this is where the golf has gone now. My neighbour has a Golf GTD and it looks fantastic. I'd have one as a small family car over the petrol GTI.
I also think becuase Diesel engines have come such a long way now they are an obvious choice in the real world. Just as good looking, practible and has satisfactory performance for the everday driver to enjoy. Above all else though, they are cheaper to run. And at the moment, that matters.
I also think becuase Diesel engines have come such a long way now they are an obvious choice in the real world. Just as good looking, practible and has satisfactory performance for the everday driver to enjoy. Above all else though, they are cheaper to run. And at the moment, that matters.
Maybe the GTI's problem these days is that the Golf it's based on is just rather dowdy?
Because I see many more Sciroccos than I do Golf GTIs, and given that the likes of Vauxhall are releasing hot hatches that look like coupes, maybe that market prefers them that way?
The more interesting hot hatches IMO seem to be emerging at the bottom of manufacturers' ranges - the Up GT, Twingo RS, Abarth 500 etc - and they seem to be more in the spirit of a proper hot hatch, which is IMO cheap, simple, unpretentious, and not actually that fast while managing to feel much quicker than it actually is. They need to be cheap to run too - the whole point of a hot hatch was that it could be used as your everyday car.
The fast big hatch market seems more like the '80s coupe market - things like the Capri, Manta and Fuego etc. Sales of those cars dwindled in the face of the hot hatches because things like the 205 GTi were more fun to drive even if they weren't quite as fast, and were also much cheaper to run and easier to live with.
Ironically, the Golf GTI has become in spirit the car its ancestor torpedoed.
Because I see many more Sciroccos than I do Golf GTIs, and given that the likes of Vauxhall are releasing hot hatches that look like coupes, maybe that market prefers them that way?
The more interesting hot hatches IMO seem to be emerging at the bottom of manufacturers' ranges - the Up GT, Twingo RS, Abarth 500 etc - and they seem to be more in the spirit of a proper hot hatch, which is IMO cheap, simple, unpretentious, and not actually that fast while managing to feel much quicker than it actually is. They need to be cheap to run too - the whole point of a hot hatch was that it could be used as your everyday car.
The fast big hatch market seems more like the '80s coupe market - things like the Capri, Manta and Fuego etc. Sales of those cars dwindled in the face of the hot hatches because things like the 205 GTi were more fun to drive even if they weren't quite as fast, and were also much cheaper to run and easier to live with.
Ironically, the Golf GTI has become in spirit the car its ancestor torpedoed.
Captain Muppet said:
pycraft said:
I think the key factor here is the rising cost of insurance, not of the cars themselves. The hot hatch is the natural preserve of the young, who now can't afford the insurance costs.
So the young have the £25,845 to buy a GTi, they just don't have any more money left for insurance?I'm not sure that's the reason.
The UK has changed a lot since 1989 when the Golf GTI was the king, if you consider a 1989 GTI had a list price of about £9k, the average salary was £13k and average house £59k
Compared to now, Golf list price of £25k, average salary £26k and £165k for a house
Twincam16 said:
Maybe the GTI's problem these days is that the Golf it's based on is just rather dowdy?
Because I see many more Sciroccos than I do Golf GTIs, and given that the likes of Vauxhall are releasing hot hatches that look like coupes, maybe that market prefers them that way?
The more interesting hot hatches IMO seem to be emerging at the bottom of manufacturers' ranges - the Up GT, Twingo RS, Abarth 500 etc - and they seem to be more in the spirit of a proper hot hatch, which is IMO cheap, simple, unpretentious, and not actually that fast while managing to feel much quicker than it actually is. They need to be cheap to run too - the whole point of a hot hatch was that it could be used as your everyday car.
The fast big hatch market seems more like the '80s coupe market - things like the Capri, Manta and Fuego etc. Sales of those cars dwindled in the face of the hot hatches because things like the 205 GTi were more fun to drive even if they weren't quite as fast, and were also much cheaper to run and easier to live with.
Ironically, the Golf GTI has become in spirit the car its ancestor torpedoed.
nail on the head ^^.Because I see many more Sciroccos than I do Golf GTIs, and given that the likes of Vauxhall are releasing hot hatches that look like coupes, maybe that market prefers them that way?
The more interesting hot hatches IMO seem to be emerging at the bottom of manufacturers' ranges - the Up GT, Twingo RS, Abarth 500 etc - and they seem to be more in the spirit of a proper hot hatch, which is IMO cheap, simple, unpretentious, and not actually that fast while managing to feel much quicker than it actually is. They need to be cheap to run too - the whole point of a hot hatch was that it could be used as your everyday car.
The fast big hatch market seems more like the '80s coupe market - things like the Capri, Manta and Fuego etc. Sales of those cars dwindled in the face of the hot hatches because things like the 205 GTi were more fun to drive even if they weren't quite as fast, and were also much cheaper to run and easier to live with.
Ironically, the Golf GTI has become in spirit the car its ancestor torpedoed.
Mk4sales were probably high as they had 2 versions. Wonder what the sales of the proper version mk4 with the red badge was.
At the time of the mk4 peak sales, there was not much offering from the competition, and even when the Vauxhall SRi and Focus ST170 came, they were not as good as the GTI imo. When it came to the mk5, although it was good the competition from the like of the new Focus ST, Megane 255 and Astra VXR which were on par or above the GTI. It would have surely pinch sales away from it.
At the time of the mk4 peak sales, there was not much offering from the competition, and even when the Vauxhall SRi and Focus ST170 came, they were not as good as the GTI imo. When it came to the mk5, although it was good the competition from the like of the new Focus ST, Megane 255 and Astra VXR which were on par or above the GTI. It would have surely pinch sales away from it.
Since they got rid of the v6 .:R models, I've lost interest in VW. Bog-standard FWD GTI puts them right back into the clutches of everyone else. If the GTI went on a diet, was a bit more hardcore or simply VW did something different, maybe they'd do better. The GTI is supposed to be a high performance hatch, and doing 230BHP is a bit standard. The GTI is supposed to be a fair bit quicker than anything else at least in the Golf family.
Bring back the V6, make it 300BHP, make it handle fantastically and maybe we'd have an exciting car.
Bring back the V6, make it 300BHP, make it handle fantastically and maybe we'd have an exciting car.
Contigo said:
a MK2 16V is just awesome. The engine and handling are exquisite. I would still drive a well looked after one now.
i drive a well looked after 1988 model that's done 93k miles. PAB is not concours condition but it's a very good honest example. the specialist i go to can't believe it still has the correct period exhaust. it sales through MOTs and the only concessions i've made are vibratechnik gearbox/engine mounts, a total brake system replacement and the obligatory k&n air filter. the temptation to change other things is strong but i think it would ruin the whole reason why i bought one. my specialist has even said he wouldn't do any changes as a matter of principle. when it's at his garage i'm told more people ask about it than any other car because they're all tricked up. the engine is strong and it makes a mockery of the claimed 123mph top speed and 0-60 time. never thought i'd be a traffic light grand prix racer but for some reason when ever i'm out boy/men racers time their run up to the lights to coincide with mine. PAB tries his very best and even embarrasses some of this new metal! it's like they see an old prize fighter in the street and think "i've heard he was good in his day let's see if he's still got it."
i'm sure there is more fun to be had on 4 wheels somewhere but i'd have to sell mine to find out. however, to find myself disappointed and never have PAB again would kill me. he never lets me down and is part of the family.
From my point of view its a price thing. Hot hatches used to quite easily attainable for young (ish) guys, you know early 20's with a decent job etc. For example the wedge shaped Civic Type R started at roughly 17k, my old Focus ST-3 was only 21k and that was top of the range. Now the same money won't even get you a bottom of the range new Focus ST. So i think to an extent they've priced themselves out of the very market they want to appeal to.
Don't get me wrong, i'm sure there are 100's of people on this forum who can still afford a hot hatch. For the record i don't count things like the Renault Sport Twingo 133 as a hot hatch......great car but not fast enough to be a hot hatch these days. (IMHO)
Someone mentioned insurance too.....and that's definitely not helping, particularly if you are young.
Anyway there's my 2 pence worth
Don't get me wrong, i'm sure there are 100's of people on this forum who can still afford a hot hatch. For the record i don't count things like the Renault Sport Twingo 133 as a hot hatch......great car but not fast enough to be a hot hatch these days. (IMHO)
Someone mentioned insurance too.....and that's definitely not helping, particularly if you are young.
Anyway there's my 2 pence worth
I know many will not agree with me, but bring back a proper 6 cylinder Golf R. A nice factory turbocharged or supercharged R32. Or take audi's RS 2.5T. I dont care if it costs the earth, I'd love it. I just dont want to go back to 4 cylinders - all the farting and burping and all has nothing on the lovely V6 sound.
I may be forced into a BMW soon
I may be forced into a BMW soon
White Lightning said:
From my point of view its a price thing. Hot hatches used to quite easily attainable for young (ish) guys, you know early 20's with a decent job etc. For example the wedge shaped Civic Type R started at roughly 17k, my old Focus ST-3 was only 21k and that was top of the range. Now the same money won't even get you a bottom of the range new Focus ST. So i think to an extent they've priced themselves out of the very market they want to appeal to.
Don't get me wrong, i'm sure there are 100's of people on this forum who can still afford a hot hatch. For the record i don't count things like the Renault Sport Twingo 133 as a hot hatch......great car but not fast enough to be a hot hatch these days. (IMHO)
Someone mentioned insurance too.....and that's definitely not helping, particularly if you are young.
Anyway there's my 2 pence worth
Not sure I agree with your statement about the Twingo 133. For me a hot hatch should be about practicality and fun. Cars like the Twingo, Suzuki swift sport, and the new VW UP GT look great and with prces around £13k coupled with affordable running costs, they make sense IMO. Don't get me wrong, i'm sure there are 100's of people on this forum who can still afford a hot hatch. For the record i don't count things like the Renault Sport Twingo 133 as a hot hatch......great car but not fast enough to be a hot hatch these days. (IMHO)
Someone mentioned insurance too.....and that's definitely not helping, particularly if you are young.
Anyway there's my 2 pence worth
nixon1 said:
Since they got rid of the v6 .:R models, I've lost interest in VW. Bog-standard FWD GTI puts them right back into the clutches of everyone else. If the GTI went on a diet, was a bit more hardcore or simply VW did something different, maybe they'd do better. The GTI is supposed to be a high performance hatch, and doing 230BHP is a bit standard. The GTI is supposed to be a fair bit quicker than anything else at least in the Golf family.
Bring back the V6, make it 300BHP, make it handle fantastically and maybe we'd have an exciting car.
Agreed, why buy a Gti when its not a great deal more for an R which is much better at being a hot hatch - plus 4wd?Bring back the V6, make it 300BHP, make it handle fantastically and maybe we'd have an exciting car.
That said the R does little for me, if a new one had a 300hp V6 then id have the perfect replacement for my mk5 r32 :-)
They are not cheaper to run, unless you are doing around 15,000 miles per year. I would never go for a diesel s
tbox for my daily drive. For a van to carry load or a 4x4 yes, but a car, no.
The price of diesel does not make it any better. And now car manufactures are finally introducing turbo models to mainstream range with direct injection (the same as diesel), the diesel is not as much a better proposition when you work it out.
tbox for my daily drive. For a van to carry load or a 4x4 yes, but a car, no.The price of diesel does not make it any better. And now car manufactures are finally introducing turbo models to mainstream range with direct injection (the same as diesel), the diesel is not as much a better proposition when you work it out.
Nicholls22 said:
For me, if I wanted a hot hatch I would think of Renault, Ford, Vauxhall, etc. If somone suggested a golf, I'd think of a Diesel such as the GTD. I think this is where the golf has gone now. My neighbour has a Golf GTD and it looks fantastic. I'd have one as a small family car over the petrol GTI.
I also think becuase Diesel engines have come such a long way now they are an obvious choice in the real world. Just as good looking, practible and has satisfactory performance for the everday driver to enjoy. Above all else though, they are cheaper to run. And at the moment, that matters.
I also think becuase Diesel engines have come such a long way now they are an obvious choice in the real world. Just as good looking, practible and has satisfactory performance for the everday driver to enjoy. Above all else though, they are cheaper to run. And at the moment, that matters.
Davey S2 said:
As Clarkson pointed out on TG the new hot Up will be the spiritual successor to the GTI
Under 1000kg and approximately 120-130 bhp yep, I agree with that - the lines almost look like the mk1 and the simplicity of the cabin. I bet the designers really think that's the genuine gti but the evolution of the golf just goes on, why mix up their effective brand formula. I think the biggest drive is in affordability. My daily car has shifted from thirsty petrol cars of varying engine sizes to a 2 ltr diesel - I'm sure that's a common trend and the biggest factor in determining sales. Who really wants a diesel car? - I don't, it's just costs that bring it in favour. I filled up last night at £1.48 - just bend over at the pumps - it almost seems expensive in my diesel to travel around - I need something more frugal!
“The Renault Megane Renaultsport achieved a measly 306 sales.”
This doesn’t surprise me that much really, given Renault’s overall sales volumes in the UK in 2012 – I bet that’s near 3.2% of their total sales, never mind Megane sales
There's a lot riding on the new Clio and for ‘people like us’ especially, the new DCT- and 5-Door-only RS Clio - I loved my old 182, and would have another tomorrow, but the 197 and 200 have never quite appealed in the same way.
This doesn’t surprise me that much really, given Renault’s overall sales volumes in the UK in 2012 – I bet that’s near 3.2% of their total sales, never mind Megane sales
There's a lot riding on the new Clio and for ‘people like us’ especially, the new DCT- and 5-Door-only RS Clio - I loved my old 182, and would have another tomorrow, but the 197 and 200 have never quite appealed in the same way.
marlons69 said:
"Same went for the Mk2. The big year was 1989, ahead of the pre-big bumper, when 30 per cent of all new Golfs wore the GTI badge."
Can someone please explain what mkII golf came ahaead of of the "pre-big bumper"...?
Pre 1990 face lift models , the gti's came with the small bumper like on the mk1's then 1990 they made them the deeper full bumper models.Can someone please explain what mkII golf came ahaead of of the "pre-big bumper"...?
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